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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    This tier your highest percentile was a 76th on Jin'rokh. I don't think you have as much authority on "player skill" as you think. It's fine that you have your opinion, but don't try to weigh in on the discussion like an expert just because you have a few heroic kills.
    This just further proves my point that you don't need optimization for heroic kills, you don't even really need skill, I'm not claiming to be an amazing player because, I'm not, I know I'm not, but this game really isn't hard and DPS isn't as important as everyone seems to think so gaining or losing an extra few thousand dps isn't going to make a difference.

    I guess my real point is, unless you are hitting enrage on a boss or shooting for world first, there isn't really a concern for being 100% optimized, just get gear and play better.
    And epeen shaming? a player of your caliber should really know better, but I guess I should expect that from ex-gamble

  2. #82
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    OT @ Stache:

    If we were just waiting to hear what the well-ranked players say , then we would probably just playing with fire and in the same way. For my development as a player, it was important to benefit from the fund of each "level". Not every player has the time to play 12 - 16 hours a day. I've played with players who has never come across a top 500 ranking (was one of the myself), but a couple of them were better than any top 50 player I've ever met.

    To see that you attack someone just because he is not among the top 5 in the rankings, makes me a little angry. For me, every reasoned opinion has the same weight. If one does not fit you, then simply ignore it.

    Back to topic:

    Since Animus heroic, I´m called a "warlock light" in my guild. Doing approx 350k dps till p2 by multi-dotting anima golems don´t feel intended. Can´t image how a spec specific only bomb should work. Playing with frost bomb is not viable in ToT - in not a single fight in 25m heroic encounters. Sure you can cheat dps on tortos and megaera, but there are always another classes who could do it way better and way more effective.

    The other issue with frost bomb is the trinket choice: Distributing loot (trinkets) is not that easy in a 25m guild. If you want to have a chance to play properly with frost bomb, you need Cha Ye´s Essence of Brilliance, but it is best in slot for Destro & Demo WLs, Boomkins and Fire Mages - of course. Getting this trinket is not very likely during progression (bonus roll).

  3. #83
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    There is no difference in "optimal play" if you're ranked #1 or #5000.

    Meaning: Some unranked players could be incredible but not ranked for one reason or another. Eventually we'll all slip into the dusty cupboard of has-been mages. But even if I was in a guild working on just normal modes, I'd want to be playing like I'm in a heroic guild, otherwise I'm doing a disservice to the rest of the team.

    Always work towards your aptitude, the rank itself doesn't matter. Optimal play is required to do that and anything else is the absurdity that voltaa keeps attempting to sell the community. A few thousand more DPS can allow you to use that shoddy recruit who is doing a few thousand less DPS than he should be doing, so that you can beat the enrage timers.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    This just further proves my point that you don't need optimization for heroic kills, you don't even really need skill, I'm not claiming to be an amazing player because, I'm not, I know I'm not, but this game really isn't hard and DPS isn't as important as everyone seems to think so gaining or losing an extra few thousand dps isn't going to make a difference.

    I guess my real point is, unless you are hitting enrage on a boss or shooting for world first, there isn't really a concern for being 100% optimized, just get gear and play better.
    And epeen shaming? a player of your caliber should really know better, but I guess I should expect that from ex-gamble
    My point is, if you care so little for bettering your numbers, then you really don't have any place being a part of this discussion, and (getting back on topic) you certainly don't have a place saying that mages should be fine with just having one viable tier option for their bomb choice.

    Your raid bot is a reflection of this apathy, There are plenty of good players who will never show up high on raid bots, but you come to these forums and said mages should be happy with their choices because optimization doesn't matter and it's all about having skill. If you make that sort of claim, don't expect a free ride.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    My point is, if you care so little for bettering your numbers, then you really don't have any place being a part of this discussion, and (getting back on topic) you certainly don't have a place saying that mages should be fine with just having one viable tier option for their bomb choice.

    Your raid bot is a reflection of this apathy, There are plenty of good players who will never show up high on raid bots, but you come to these forums and said mages should be happy with their choices because optimization doesn't matter and it's all about having skill. If you make that sort of claim, don't expect a free ride.
    It's not that it doesn't matter, because clearly it does, it's that at the skill level of the average mage the more important factor in numbers comes down to personal skill level and boss strat, that's where the largest jump in your numbers will happen where the optimization is more like fine tuning.

    As for what my epeen reflects...apathy, I wouldn't say so, because despite my devil's advocate attitude, I do try to optimize my play. Personally I find it to be more a reflection of going from a guild that was struggling on horridon and suddenly being thrown into a setting where I was getting two, maybe three attempts to figure out four new farm bosses in a new guild, but I really don't expect someone to take the time to dig up that kind of info on some rando on a forum so I can see why you would just figure what you did about me. If you look at the fights I actually progressed on (qon, primordius, council, twins if it starts working) you'll see more accurate representations of my "skill" not saying I'm highly skilled just pointing out that a quick look at epeen often doesn't tell the full story,

    Now as for the OT bomb discussion, mages aren't the only ones who have these problems, warlocks have similar issues with a best grimoire, priests have the same issue choosing halo for shadow and cascade for heals, I guess I have just become too accustomed to the whole "this is best thing" for many classes which is probably a bad attitude for the progress/balance of the game so I do see your point there

  6. #86
    Sorry to butt in, but is a few k DPS worth this much arguing?

    Going from GC's tweets, the design intent in normal mode raid is that as long as you get the mechanics right, you will clear it fine. Pulling your hair out over minor DPS increase/decrease should not be necessary.

  7. #87
    Mechagnome Wargon's Avatar
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    I would like it better if they took away the DOT, made it to where you could only cast bomb on 1 target at a time, and just made the bomb count down and explodes causing all the dmg with the bang
    “The Jedi…the Sith…you don’t get it, do you? To the galaxy, they’re the same thing; just men and women with too much power, squabbling over religion, while the rest of us burn.”-Atton Rand

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Wargon View Post
    I would like it better if they took away the DOT, made it to where you could only cast bomb on 1 target at a time, and just made the bomb count down and explodes causing all the dmg with the bang
    This idea is really cool in theory, maybe have this as one of the dot choices but have it somehow scale well with haste (maybe the damage ramps up depending on haste instead of being a flat spellpower + base equation?)

    Other problem is it kind of cuts our chances with trinkets that proc off dot ticks. (which those tricky coders could probably also tackle a solution for.) Seems more of a coding problem to solve, I imagine they could include a hidden "proc chance" that ticks every second for 0 damage that at least serves as a way to proc your RPPM stuff.

    It would be really cool though, and have that mage feel for sure, as long as blizzard found a way to make it equal in power to the current dots and how they scale with haste but also not super overpowered in pvp (looking at you, frost bomb).

    I feel like cool ideas like this don't really chance a chance because they require creative solutions that not only cover the bases of PvP balance but also the coding process that a lot of systems Warcraft has in place now (like RPPM). Simple solutions like "ghost ticks" to add chances to proc for spells that don't tick very often or spells that do less damage in PvP would be a temporary solution, but in the big picture I'm not sure what needs to be done.

    I guess this is just the fate of a game that's been built around 8 year old code.
    Last edited by Stache; 2013-05-06 at 05:28 PM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    Other problem is it kind of cuts our chances with trinkets that proc off dot ticks. (which those tricky coders could probably also tackle a solution for.) Seems more of a coding problem to solve, I imagine they could include a hidden "proc chance" that ticks every second for 0 damage that at least serves as a way to proc your RPPM stuff.
    IMO the best solution to this is just to stop adding proc-on-dot trinkets. With the RPPM system in place the mechanic doesn't add anything of value. Either you have a DOT and it procs at some RPPM rate, or you don't have a DOT and it never procs. There's nothing extra you can do to make the trinkets proc more if you have DOTs and it just punishes people who don't have them.

    Anyway isn't the idea just an exact description of frost bomb? It's already in the game...

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by aoz View Post
    IMO the best solution to this is just to stop adding proc-on-dot trinkets. With the RPPM system in place the mechanic doesn't add anything of value. Either you have a DOT and it procs at some RPPM rate, or you don't have a DOT and it never procs. There's nothing extra you can do to make the trinkets proc more if you have DOTs and it just punishes people who don't have them.

    Anyway isn't the idea just an exact description of frost bomb? It's already in the game...
    No. Frost bomb is a perfect example of how not to implement the "one-hitter" bomb idea.

  11. #91
    Perhaps I'm just missing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wargon View Post
    I would like it better if they took away the DOT, made it to where you could only cast bomb on 1 target at a time, and just made the bomb count down and explodes causing all the dmg with the bang
    -Frost bomb doesn't have a DOT
    -Frost bomb can only be cast on 1 target at a time
    -Frost bomb counts down and explodes, causing all the damage with the bang

    What is the key point here that separates it from how frost bomb is now?

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by aoz View Post
    Perhaps I'm just missing something.



    -Frost bomb doesn't have a DOT
    -Frost bomb can only be cast on 1 target at a time
    -Frost bomb counts down and explodes, causing all the damage with the bang

    What is the key point here that separates it from how frost bomb is now?
    Please take a moment and read the post above yours again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stache View Post
    This idea is really cool in theory, maybe have this as one of the dot choices but have it somehow scale well with haste (maybe the damage ramps up depending on haste instead of being a flat spellpower + base equation?)

    Other problem is it kind of cuts our chances with trinkets that proc off dot ticks. (which those tricky coders could probably also tackle a solution for.) Seems more of a coding problem to solve, I imagine they could include a hidden "proc chance" that ticks every second for 0 damage that at least serves as a way to proc your RPPM stuff.

    It would be really cool though, and have that mage feel for sure, as long as blizzard found a way to make it equal in power to the current dots and how they scale with haste but also not super overpowered in pvp (looking at you, frost bomb).

    I feel like cool ideas like this don't really chance a chance because they require creative solutions that not only cover the bases of PvP balance but also the coding process that a lot of systems Warcraft has in place now (like RPPM). Simple solutions like "ghost ticks" to add chances to proc for spells that don't tick very often or spells that do less damage in PvP would be a temporary solution, but in the big picture I'm not sure what needs to be done.
    For frost bomb to be legitimate choice for raiding it needs to:
    1. Be less disruptive to the rotation (especially fire and arcane)
    2. Scale with haste differently (the cooldown thing is lame, especially when paired with pyromaniac: compare how much better NT gets with haste to FB)
    3. Actually be viable, especially with less targets

    If we are going to say that we already have this awesome spell, then it's got a lot of work ahead of it.

    You seem to have some fixation on the notion that frost bomb is an acceptable choice on a few fights, NT beats it on all fronts, hands down. Yes, I've tried running frost bomb in some aoe heavy fights. If you care even a little for playing optimally, it's just not as good.

  13. #93
    Mechagnome Xzan's Avatar
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    I think it doesn't really matter what do the bombs look like or behave like, there will always be someone complaining that his favourite bomb doesn't do what he thinks it should do in his opinion...

    We got three bombs, each one of them is suitable for different scenarios. That's fine with me.
    It's up to you to choose which one you want and you're not locked by your spec. Imagine if, as Frost, you were only locked to Frost Bomb. The spec would suddenly suck major balls everywhere apart from trash AoE bonanzas.
    Some are complaining about using arcane DoT spell when in Fire spec and how it destroys their class immersion or whatnot. Well you are a mage, you control all those elements. Apart from this really being just a cosmetic thing, being Fire doesn't (and shouldn't) mean that you happily take every non-fire school spell off your action bars... It's ridiculous to even think about that.

    It would be OP to have all the three bombs at all times, it would suck to have only one type of them per spec. And complaining about Frost Bombs being bad on single target is as stupid as it sounds - it's not a single target bomb goddamit! Stop being stubborn and use each of the bombs properly instead of complaining how bad your bomb of choice is.

    The only thing I'd change about Frost Bomb is to give it 2 charges. It's nice that it gets it's cooldown reduced by haste, but most of that time gained is wasted as you wait for your previous cast to finish anyway, so the extra fractions of seconds are getting you very limited benefit. Giving a second charge, a buffer, would make this thing a whole lot more appealing.

  14. #94
    Extremely tired but these are my thoughts.

    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)

    Yes. At least with the current design, certain bombs have better rotation flow & proc synergy with specific specs anyway (ignoring the current strength of NT). I'm also in the camp of people who prefers Fire to throw Fire spells, Frost to throw Frost, etc just as a cosmetic/RP preference. I would not mind switching specs if the bomb associated with it made a tangible difference for the encounter. Things are too homogenized atm; I want to go back to spec distinctiveness.

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)

    Theoretically I like the flexibility but in practice it hasn't worked out so well due to the rotation synergy stuff & trinket availability. "Illusion of choice" is very apt.

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?

    I would not nerf NT just yet - until some other changes happen. (As far as other bomb buffs: BRING BACK LB SPREAD....!)

    Yes, mages have historically been more of a nuke class than a dot class, but SOOOO many encounters (in this tier and several previous) offer a huge advantage for multidotting casters - not just meter padders, but people helping their raid by whittling down several targets. I for one enjoy being able to approach crazy spriests, boomkins & warlocks for once in this regard with the supercharged NT.

    The best long term solution imo (whether or not the mage bomb tier stays around) is to either 1) scale down the insane power of other casters' dots, or 2) buff mage single-target nukes to compensate for any heavy dmg loss on (the many!) multi-target designed fights. Until that happens I'm fine with the bandaid fix & using supercharged NT as a fire mage.

  15. #95
    I would like to see Living Bomb be spreadable via Inferno blast again.

  16. #96
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Damage dealt by spells can be scaled based off the number of targets.

    Shadow Word: Pain, Nether Tempest, etc., can all tick for less on additional targets. This would greatly assist in balancing how much DPS someone is doing regardless of how many targets there are out there without removing multidotting itself.

  17. #97
    Quick question - How many classes have a core-rotation spell or ability on the talent tree? Yep, just Mage. It's amazing how nobody really sees this for the huge problem it is. It's like putting Fireball, Frostbolt, and Arcane Missiles on the talent tree and then expecting them to all be chosen equally. It's basically a non-tier because we are forced into choosing a basic spell that's just a part of our normal rotation.

  18. #98
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Scoop pretty much that's the only thing that identifies our specs anymore. Bomb damage is so high.

  19. #99
    I don't think the bombs identify identify our specs at all. They are just spells that are placed on our talent tree for no good reason. The only reason they do so much damage because of the emergency hotfix in 5.2 where they buffed all the bombs by 40%. This seemed to be a band-aid for a larger issue.

    I hope everyone understands how putting a core-rotation ability choice on the talent tree is fundamentally flawed. I also hope that blizzard does something to address it before 6.0 but I'm not holding my breath.

  20. #100
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    Oh sorry Scoop I read your post wrong, didn't realize that's what you meant. I agree, nothing used rotationally should ever be on a talent tree.

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