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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
    Quick question - How many classes have a core-rotation spell or ability on the talent tree? .
    -Hunters (90 talents)
    -Priests (90 Talents)
    -Mages (75 talents)
    -Paladins (90 talents)

  2. #102
    voltaa, those other classes talents are all on CD. If the bomb tier was something like an Orb tier instead it would not be nearly as much of an issue. They also happen to have a wider range of functionality.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    -Hunters (90 talents)
    -Priests (90 Talents)
    -Mages (75 talents)
    -Paladins (90 talents)
    Well, those are a lot more different. E.g. Priests can choose a rotational 15 second cd Divine Star or 40 second cd Halo, both of which provide utility in healing and are tons of fun to use. Cascade is a middle ground, but I don't like it as you have to choose between damage and healing. Mages on the other hand choose what color should their core rotational ability be. As a mage you choose whether you want to constantly cast a dot on all targets, cast a dot on 3 targets only or watch a ~8 second cooldown and make your dot not instant. As Fire and Frost you even lose a lot of dps if you don't cast these dots. If a priest doesn't want to bother with lv90 talents he/she can take Halo and use it from time to time or for aoe only or for clutch healing or even just forget about it - nothing else in their rotation depends on these talents. Mages have to cast their stupid dots from once per 12 seconds to non stop spamming. That's some major bs right there. Where's the option NOT to cast dots?

    I'd LOVE to have priest-like lv75 and lv90 talents. Hunters and paladins have similar upsides - a powerful ability on a 30-60 second cooldown, with some utility attached is great! Like for example Frozen Orb for Frost mages - it does good aoe damage, slows enemies and gives procs. You feel good about using it! While the out-of-character dots you have to constantly spam forgoing your primary rotation are awful. I hope we'll have our current lv75 and lv90 talents removed and reworked in the next expansion.
    Last edited by Nightfall; 2013-05-07 at 11:54 PM.

  4. #104
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    I will add an information to the point were bomb is include in the core rotation, especially for Fire and Frost.

    Fire : add debuff on the target that increase the damage of Pyro, IB, FFB and FB by 10%.
    Frost : proc Brain Freeze.

    For fire, it count for near 8% DPS and for frost it's between 15% and 25%.
    Frost bomb is very good with Frost as it make BF-FBB rotational but isn't very Fire friendly as the debuff is applied only when the bomb explode.

    And surprise, the brain freeze proc rate is better with NT than any other bomb : 5.4 pmm (NT), 5.21 ppm (FB) and 5 ppm (LB)
    The answers is 42
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    It just seems pretty stupid that on multi target/add fights, a viable dps option is to go arcane, stack haste+mastery and spam NT on everything. That is beyond dumb that a single spell can play such a large roll for a spec.
    for me, that's the culprit. it's so damn annoying to be forced to tab-spam NT on every target. multi-dotting with LB-spread mechanic has been a lot of fun but it got destroyed for no good reason. now we have an even stronger multi-dot, but this one is NOT fun to use. it's a stupid situation, caused by blizzard's (in my eyes) desultory class, spec and spell changes. it feels like they got so entangled in their own changes that they lost the overview.

    now we have this "bomb mess". :/

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    for me, that's the culprit. it's so damn annoying to be forced to tab-spam NT on every target. multi-dotting with LB-spread mechanic has been a lot of fun but it got destroyed for no good reason. now we have an even stronger multi-dot, but this one is NOT fun to use. it's a stupid situation, caused by blizzard's (in my eyes) desultory class, spec and spell changes. it feels like they got so entangled in their own changes that they lost the overview.

    now we have this "bomb mess". :/
    Yeah, if there's 8 (depending on haste) targets or more that need constant dps from start of the fight to finish then arcane would be the way to go, but how many fights are really like that? While this is all true for the 8+ target scenario, at least it gives us an AoE rotation that isn't confined to targets being within 8 yards of each other for fire and frost spec. More importantly it gives us an alternative to our sub-par aoe power at the moment. Maybe I'm the odd man out here but I really enjoy keeping NT rolling on multiple targets for maximum dps, especially on Council and Dark Animus.
    Last edited by Stache; 2013-05-08 at 03:19 PM.

  7. #107
    -Hunters (90 talents)
    -Priests (90 Talents)
    -Mages (75 talents)
    -Paladins (90 talents)
    Add to that list:

    Monk: level 30 talent (only one right answer for all situations)

  8. #108
    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)

    Not at all. I think it's nice to have a little diversity. Mages have control over fire, frost, AND arcane magic. I don't see why we should limit ourselves to a certain school simply based on spec. That's like saying fire mages shouldn't be able to evocate (a la invocation) or counterspell because those are "arcane" spells.

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)

    I like that the option is there, but I wish there was slightly more distinction beyond just "use x bomb for y targets." I'm fine with situational talents, but I also don't want to feel pigeonholed.

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?

    Frankly, NT scales incredibly well, is highly mobile, and has no CD or target restrictions, so the other bombs really aren't viable alternatives atm. I'm inclined to say that it needs to be nerfed, but maybe LB and FB just need some attention. The changes to LB in 5.3 seem promising. I think it'd be neat if FB ramped up its AoE damage over time -- something like small AoE, then bigger AoE, and then a huge AoE upon detonation (for shatters).

  9. #109
    I wish the "bomb" tier was an added AOE tier and leave living bomb as fire only and scrap the othes.

    Like let one of the talents make blizzard a shortish cast spell or instant.
    Let another talent effect fire AOE by channeling a spell that causes flame strike to trigger living bomb on all mobs reguardless of spec (since I want living bomb to be fire only.

  10. #110
    Azden, there are more compelling arguments for baking the bombs into the spec that have nothing to do with the flavor of casting off-school spells.

  11. #111
    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)
    For thematicity sake - sure. That would be much better than our current talent choice.

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)
    I hate that. No bombs should have any target limit. I like the Frost Bomb mechanic. If the same would apply to Living Bomb the bomb, upon exploding, it would hit all targets and apply ignite on crits. Nether Tempest would simply hit harder - a DoT version of Frost Bomb.

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?
    As 1) says i'd rather have each bomb be spec-specific and go away from being forced to use the best bomb as there is no choice and is simply annoying to switch talents between fights.

    Overall i'd rather have ONE bomb spell and it would change between specs - arcane would scale with each spec's mechanics such as apply ignite, arcane charges, fingers of frost, etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    I still called it.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    -Hunters (90 talents)
    -Priests (90 Talents)
    -Mages (75 talents)
    -Paladins (90 talents)
    Monks with their level 30 talents.
    Shaman with their level 90 talents.

    So, including mages, more than half of all classes have at least one talent tier that becomes part of the core rotation.

    That said, I'm not a huge fan of the bombs. Managing DoTs is annoying with a 10 second duration and no Pandemic equivalent ability. With Frost and Arcane, it's a minor annoyance. With Fire, it's a pretty substantial problem - because that DoT is tied to Pyromaniac, which means it affects Ignite, and therefore Combustion, and therefore a lot of Fire's DPS. But Fire also pulls against that by having a lot of random procs that encourage the caster to use them as quickly as possible because of the way Ignite works. This could be solved by removing Pyromanic as a component of Bomb spells and changing it to a component of, say, Pyroblast. It could be aided by just making the bombs longer in duration.

    But I'm playing my Warlock and Monk more than my Mage these days, anyway. The level 90 talents bother me more than the bombs. The camel's back was already broken, go ahead and throw that other straw on there.
    Last edited by Solenath; 2013-05-08 at 09:14 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
    Azden, there are more compelling arguments for baking the bombs into the spec that have nothing to do with the flavor of casting off-school spells.
    I was merely referring to related comments made by other posters, such as:

    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    I am a frost mage, I cast frost spells. If they want a huge chunk of my damage to not be a frost spell, then it undermines the spec.
    or

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    When you have frost and arcane mages using fire spells, and getting a significant part of their damage out of it, it seems awkward.
    or

    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    I like the idea of Mages having access to all schools, but it just feels weird to have a SPECIALIZATION and then use a bomb from a different school.
    or

    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    having to use spells outside of your specialization really kills the Mage feel for me. I am a fire Mage I don't want to use these wimpy Arcane spells!
    The OP asked for opinions as to whether or not the mage bombs should be tied to spec, and I simply stated mine.

  14. #114
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Yes I want to know who disagrees. I want a representation of all opinions.

    I fully expect some to disagree with others.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Solenath View Post
    So, including mages, more than half of all classes have at least one talent tier that becomes part of the core rotation.
    Sure, maybe a couple talents have a low enough cooldown to be considered rotational abilities but we are the only ones with an entire tier of abilities that are core spells with almost no variance in function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azden7d7 View Post
    I was merely referring to related comments made by other posters
    Yes I understand what you were referring to. The problem is your argument is just as weak because it's just the opposite side of the same principle.

    Them: Frost mages cast frost spells!
    You: Mages cast all the spells!

    Neither argument is a strong reason to have the bombs be one place or another because It's clear that SOME spells are spec specific and some are not.

  16. #116
    I think at least graphically and nameily (?lol) the bombs [and talent trees in general] should be spec related, as a frost mage I don't want to be firing off fire spells, as a fire mage I don't want to be firing off arcane spells - however I might want to use frost bomb as an arcane mage, but if so it should look like an arcane spell and should change its name accordingly - i appreciate this would cause a lot of hassle with spell interactions etc, but would make me happy =p

    same goes for all the talents, some just don't fit the non associated spec, all should become 'frost' talents for a frost mage but still keeping their current spell effects etc

  17. #117
    Wow Kipling... just because you are frost specialized doesn't mean you suddenly can't use other types of magic. Etc, see my previous post.

    I think we need to focus on FUNCTIONALITY and MECHANICS in this discussion. Clearly everyone has their own idea of what a mage should 'feel like' but that is all very subjective.

  18. #118
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    I think the reason we got bombs in the first place goes back to pvp. A bomb provides steady damage over time and allows blizzard to nerf our cast/direct damage spells to help smooth out the burst.

    Also, in the current state, with instant cast bombs it can be a means to provide damage while moving.

    My preference would be to remove bombs from all specs and put the damage back into the spells we cast. To me, dots and the level 90 talents feel like maintenance and are not fun. Back in Vanilla, the reason I chose mage over warlock was I didn't want to watch dot timers, I wanted to cast spells and be a glass cannon. The class was too drastically changed from what I initially signed up for.

    However, if we change the class now and remove all bombs then people that started a mage recently may have the same issue -- they were expecting a dot/casting hybrid and now their dots are gone. I think a good compromise would be to keep a bomb baked in to one spec or even two, but at least give us one option for no dot management.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
    Wow Kipling... just because you are frost specialized doesn't mean you suddenly can't use other types of magic. Etc, see my previous post.

    I think we need to focus on FUNCTIONALITY and MECHANICS in this discussion. Clearly everyone has their own idea of what a mage should 'feel like' but that is all very subjective.
    While I understand what you are saying we choose a "specialization" (spec) as a mage. Why then when we specialize in say frost is our top damage arcane? That is where most of the controversy comes from.

    As for the functionality and mechanics as I stated mages shouldn't be a multi-dot class. I understand fire mages being semi-dot heavy because they burn things and that makes perfect sense.

  20. #120
    mipper I think you are being too generous with the amount of foresight you are giving the dev team that worked on the mage talent tree. They emergency buffed our bomb damage by 40% and then had to re-emergency hotfix that in pvp. They really don't know what's going on most of them time it seems.

    I think the reason we got bombs in the first place is that someone thought it was a neat idea without considering the impact it would have.

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