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  1. #21
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    I'm to infer that was directed at Tebla?
    Directed at anyone. I'm trying to gather lots of opinions then I'm going to sift through it all and come up with a good idea to push along to devs.

  2. #22
    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)
    No. I like the idea that each bomb has different strengths and weaknesses, that are related to the damage type. Frost bomb freezes, living bomb explodes, nether tempest... arcanes? As long as each bomb has a niche or specialty, it's better to pull that out of the spec because it's a lot less painful to feel "forced" into a talent as opposed to a specialization.

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)
    I think it's a good way to differentiate the bombs. Maybe it's not the only way to differentiate, but if they didn't have different properties, why would there even be a choice? Each bomb should be strong enough to use in any situation, yet specialized enough that you can optimize your talent choice based on the boss or situation. This was the case until NT got out of hand.

    Note that part of the problem is that Living Bomb and Nether Tempest don't have sufficiently different properties. Frost Bomb vs. Nether Tempest is an interesting choice because of their properties (instant vs. cast time, cleaving vs. freezing, spam vs. cooldown). What's the argument for choosing Living Bomb - a shitty version of NT vs. a shitty version of FB? LB needs to stand on its own.

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?
    3) Does it matter as long as one talent does not dominate? For what it's worth, I love the idea that selecting a particular talent (in this case, NT) can change your play style from "bomb then aoe" to "tab-dot". The problem is that the other play styles aren't competitive, so it's not really a choice. I would suggest fixing LB's scaling so it competes with NT in cleave or single-target situations, then readjust all damage so bombs make up a smaller portion of our overall output.

    Why is it good design to change a talent every fight? I think this would be a good question to ask-- flexibility is great, but the intentional design of constantly switching talents and glyphs isn't something I hear positive feedback upon from multitudes of raiders.
    I love the flexibility and the ability to experiment on the fly. It provides a level of customization that lets casual players and non-raiders find a setup they like to play, and gives progression raiders the tools they need to optimize their performance.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?
    1. As they currently stand? No. Frost bomb is atrocious to play with in practice. I'd honestly probably quit if they made it rotationally mandatory for all frost mages. The lack of a DoT in frost also would screw the spec out of a DoT trinket, of which they're usually loaded with haste and frost's BiS for any given tier.

    2. Yes. Even currently, NT vs FB works out to an interesting difference, and both can be played pretty well on any given AOE fight. Giving us the option of playstyle, multidot vs AOE nuke, is an interesting decision to me. Having a third be mostly single target with very minor cleave simply rounds the line out without screwing you over on pure single target fights. It's one of the rare talent lines that actually is a decent choice, in my opinion. Maybe it should change our AOE instead of a single target rotational ability, but that's another story.

    3. Yes. What happens in 5.3 does effectively solve most of the issues with NT being the universal bomb.

    The only real thing I've have done by now is have the bomb spells themselves change element based on your spec, or made them all arcane. The only reason NT was tolerated was because arcane is seen as the neutral damage type. It's raw magic, no one cares if a fire or frost mage is casting neutral damage types. When you have frost and arcane mages using fire spells, and getting a significant part of their damage out of it, it seems awkward. It'll be tolerated this expansion simply because I doubt they'll do any massive change on them before 6.0, 5.4 if we're lucky, but it doesn't seem like a long term solution.

    That all said, I really, REALLY despise multidotting. I can't express that enough. We're a nuke class. My preferred solution would be, in addition to making them follow spec typing, is target limit all three of them to 1. NT cleaves 4-6 targets per tick, LB and FB still explode. Everything using 5.3's calculations. You have your minor cleave, and we lose the bullshit that has basically turned us into a DoT class on anything involving multiple targets. Buff our AOE to a decent state to compensate. Continuing to single target when there's 5 mobs up isn't right.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2013-05-02 at 01:11 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Meatboll View Post
    Fire should've been the only spec with a bomb, makes the specs feel the same with all specs having a bomb.
    Nether tempest and fire bomb seem too similar. Frost bomb I'd say is fine.
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  5. #25
    I love the idea of a mage bomb, but it should be exactly that - a bomb, not a dot
    Mages really fall more into the nuke the hell out of a target category rather than anything dot related, so I feel it should be more a powerful, direct damage CD rather than a dot
    So really for 1 & 2, I'm not aboard any of it.
    For 3, I'm prefer a slight buff of the other bombs over a nerf of NT
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  6. #26
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Like a lot of other people have said we really shouldn't be forced to multi-dot. Its just not right to have to spend all our time dotting everything (primordius I'm looking at you...) and completely ignoring our single target which is what mages are about.

    I strongly agree with the bit kuni said about mages only accepting NT because arcane is the neutral magic type. I really don't want to have to use living bomb but it looks like we won't have a choice in 5.3.

    I enjoy how NT fits into the playstyle but at this point I can't say I would miss bombs if blizz came up with another mechanic to replace it.
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  7. #27
    I'm not sure what your target for the replies are, but as I'm mostly a casual raider (i.e. LFR for the most part, normal when my guild has the spot), the answers might not be the same as most


    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)
    Nope. I like the choise offeref

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)
    Not by target necessarily, but I like the option of choice offered. Maybe the each could excel at a certain aspect, but really close at single target (like 5.0 was)

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?
    Now this question I feel is really targetted at progression oriented raiders. For me, I love Frost Bomb, and I tend to use it over the other 2. It probably doesn't matter in LFR, as I do top all the other mages, but I also top the other mage that I occasionally do normals with, and he has higher gear and uses NT. IMHO, when it comes to normal and casual, skill probably a better measurement than FB vs NT. (though I wouldn't mind if they buffed FB )

  8. #28
    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)
    Absolutely, but Frost Bomb needs to be turned into a short duration Doom (a dot class spell) to allow the use of the dot trinkets which have tons of haste on them.

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)
    I hate multi-dotting. I didn't choose to roll a mage to multi-dot. If there was a cap on the amount of targets that can be affected (Living Bomb), I would be much happier. I like to be competitive in dps and understand classes good at cleave will be better on multi-target fights, so I am fine if I am not always riding the top dps simple for the fact my cleave suffers to some degree.

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead? I know people would hate the idea, but nerf NT by about 20% maybe a little less or more depending on how numbers show to make it not so dominating like it is. Frost Bomb damage is actually in a very good spot, but Living Bomb needs to be buffed. I think the current 5.3 LB buff is to much because it will be the new must use spell over the others, but I think it can be done on a more even level. However, if the any damage gets nerfed you need to find a way to make up for it over in the class. Suggestions (someone will hate me for these maybe not):

    Wizardry - Buff it some maybe to 10-15% extra intellect. It has never been touch over the years, but this is a good starting point because of trinkets, buffs, etc.

    To help the Wizardry buff simply:
    Incanter's Ward - Passive increase from 6% to 10%, but nerf the proc from 30% to 25%. Not only does this make it a more viable talent for PvE, but it also doesn't break PvP. Increase the passive mana regen to 85%. I don't play arcane, but this could potentially open them up an option for heavy movement fights over RoP.
    Invoker's Energy - Increase the damage bonus by 5%. This is not a huge game changer, but it is enough to make a difference.
    Rune of Power - This is pretty much an only an Arcane choice, but buffing the mana regen on it back to 100% would benefit them more then anything.

  9. #29
    @Levoriana thing about wizard change wont be changed ever its there to help us clothies so that other leather/mail/plate int users wont steal our gear (other classes its called leather/mail/plate specialization)

    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)
    hmmmm its bit of both but would like to see bomb associated with that spec

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)

    yes it was really good until 5.2 bomb buff (thing i dont like about FB is i hardly use it was arcane/fire)

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?

    hmmm how about something like.... amplify (single target), cluster(spreads bombs when grouped +3targets), multidot(+2 when its further away)

    i know people dont like multidotting but what if its caped to 2??? i personally dislike multidotting right know since we are not warlock/spriest i prefer blasting my enemy with powerful nuke in their face

  10. #30
    The problem with Living Bomb is that it's had its mechanic changed in a previous patch. It used to be a single-target cleave spell, spread to 2 additional targets. Sure, that was a Fire feature mostly, but it worked great! When the spreading glyph was reworked, Living Bomb has lost all its uniqueness and became just a worse version of NT with target limit.

    For Fire spec Frost Bomb is an inferior choice because of Pyromaniac - you are limited in target-swapping by Frost Bomb cooldown. Imagine switching to the dark Loa on Counsil when the bomb is on CD. For Arcane Frost Bomb is an inferior choice because it makes you even less mobile with its cast time. So the bombs aren't free to choose.

    If Blizz refuses to remove the bombs, then they should be redesigned. They should be more involved in the specs, like Frost proccing BF from them.


    Living Bomb should still have a 3 target limit and could be spread to 2 additional targets by Inferno Blast, Ice Lance and Arcane Barrage. Has a chance to proc Brain Freeze for Frost, gives Heating Up buff on explosion (Pyroblast! on 2 explosions, Pyroblast! + Heating Up on 3 explosions) for Fire, gives Arcane Charge on explosion for Arcane (3 charges on 3 explosions).
    - Livens up the rotation.

    Frost Bomb should be instant, have a tad longer cooldown (~15 seconds). Should have 100% proc chance for BF for Frost and have some non-damage pulses to behave like a dot (for trinket procs), which also have a small chance to proc BF. On explosion Fire and Arcane will gain a buff that makes their next Scorch/Fireball/Pyroblast/Frostfire Bolt/Arcane Blast/Arcane Barrage/Arcane Missiles act as if the target was frozen and cost no mana.
    - Gives burst opportunity.

    Nether Tempest should be limited to 3 targets. Has a chance to proc BF for Frost, chance to reduce the CD on Infernal Blast by 1 sec for Fire, chance to instantly finish the CD on Arcane Barrage and grant 1-3% max mana for Arcane.
    - Gives more frequent instant casts making Fire less random and Arcane less stationary.

    Also remove Pyromaniac buff for Fire as it makes the use of bombs too mandatory and restricts Frost Bomb use.
    Last edited by Nightfall; 2013-05-02 at 08:12 AM. Reason: spelling

  11. #31
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    @Kuni : Frost bomb could be made baseline but they need to make it a DOT that can be cast on move and with a fix duration. Instead of reducing cooldown with haste, it can simply increase his damage. With a fix 8s duration and a reduced damage by 20%, it keep the same dps. PvP problem isn't irresolvable.

    So what about spec identity.
    Why would we want all 3 spec to have a DoT ? Simply to be able to proc DoT-trinket ? With R-ppm system, just give a dot effect to FFB (like in cata) and it will work perfectly. Or make DoT-trinket to proc from pet's attack.
    I'm more and more inclined to thinks like Akraen : the bomb system is devious.
    Frost bomb feel good in Frost because it had a cast time. And except for movement or specific fight (garalon), it was never really a problem. But in 5.2, it's all about NT.

    Now, what can be done?
    Certainly, there will be some minor change for 5.4. Frost will still work good at 60% haste where Mastery > Haste and Fire will need another CM nerf for not being OP in heroic stuff.
    So there will be nothing major before 5.5/6.0. They will keep there talent system. We can expect to see a redo in a lot of spell (CC, instant, PvP) to make room for a 95's one. Will the mage bomb survive to this? possibly but with great change (or not at all).

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  12. #32
    1) Would you prefer to have the bomb associated with your spec? (NT-Arcane; LB-Fire; FB-Frost)
    Definitely no, i hate frost bomb and wont ever use it... It breaks frost 'flow' and is detrimental in most cases. As far as i understand, the current problem with NT concerns only fullon-mastery arcane, not other specs.

    2) Do you like the design idea of separating the choice of the bomb per the number of targets? (this forces you to switch talents often)
    No idea, that entirely depends on implementation.. For instance, Arms warrior TfB system in 5.0/5.1 sounded quite exciting before MoP was released, but proved too random and iffy in practice, notwithstanding subsequent pvp nerfs. Also, hamfisted fire nerfs of november 27 come to mind (good intention - ruined life for average geared guys like me and almost no effect on top mages who already finished progression).

    3) Nether Tempest dominates all 3 specs now, do you think it solves anything to just buff other bombs or nerf NT? What would you do instead?
    As a former fire mage, i'd just return cata aoe system.. there was no need for any dot 'bombs' as fire aoe was sufficient in itself. Target limiting is really a bad idea, i simply cant understand why hunters can dot everything with basically 1 button, shammies can pull 200k dps with 1 button, why should i tab like crazy, time RoFs with orbs and others things... That will make things even worse. Anyways, I like current NT as it allows me to do at least some dps on heavy movement fights (council, tortos etc). Anyways, any nerf-buffs should take synergy into account - if you change 'core' spell other connected abilities can slump as well (BF procs / FoF or pyro procs for fire)

  13. #33
    I mage WITHOUT bombs, bombs are boring, especially frost.

  14. #34
    Pandaren Monk Statix's Avatar
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    I want WotLK type talent trees back, so I also want spec specific Bombs. I like the idea of Mages having access to all schools, but it just feels weird to have a SPECIALIZATION and then use a bomb from a different school. Doesn't make sense.

    I would make the Bombs core abilities for their respective specs, switch the current level 90 Mage talents to level 75 talents and create new level 90 talents. I honestly wouldn't mind to be able to summon a Phoenix to fight by my side, or to have a Frostform, or an empowered version of Alter Time that allows you do use it as a selfress.
    Statix will suffice.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    I think having the 3 bombs and the illusion of choice was a terrible move on Blizzs part.
    I would be ok with bombs being baseline and spec dependent, fire gets LB, arc get NT, frost gets FB and us actually getting a decent talent tier there.

    It just seems pretty stupid that on multi target/add fights, a viable dps option is to go arcane, stack haste+mastery and spam NT on everything. That is beyond dumb that a single spell can play such a large roll for a spec.
    This is pretty much spot on.

    While we continue on discussing the general topic of the bombs, I do want to draw attention to a very specific point made by Saegno here which I believe is extremely important to recognize.


    The point being "The Illusion of Choice".


    This is perhaps my first and foremost issue with the "Bomb tier". The fact that, realistically, the core mechanics of the bombs as they work today, do not encourage actual choice, but instead, encourage nothing more than the all too familiar "respec on a fight-by-fight basis" mentality.


    One of the fundamental issue with the bombs, imho, is the fact that since they are all designed to "be the best choice for X number of targets" (where X varies per bomb), ideally, a player who wishes to optimize his performance (which we can assume everyone here does), will in fact just respec his bomb to whatever the optimal bomb is for the specific fight. Obviously, this is not true at this very moment (patch 5.2), but that is due to the absurd buff of the bombs in general, buffs that have pushed NT as being "the best bomb, period" and done nothing but exacerbate the "spam NT on everything ftw" abominable mentality (as Saegno touches on in his second point).
    Though abominations of balance aside, the bombs are just designed to be "best per fight", hence, they are fundamentally designed to fail when they attempt to fulfill their role as talents.


    To explain that statement further, we must realize that one of the key motivating factors for redoing the entire talent system for MoP, according to Blizz themselves, was to have talents be a playstyle choice with minimal to no "power impact".
    I.e. Talents are meant to serve as a method for players to customize their play, to differentiate themselves from other players of their own class, and to allow the player the ability to pick a 'style' rather than to pick 'power'.

    The fact that almost each fight in the game can be clearly given a "X Bomb is best for this fight" prescription, means that the entire Bomb tier has fundamentally failed the core design intent for talents. Since there is simply no choice.

    The bomb tier, on the whole, does not serve to allow mages to customize themselves to their choice (and remain optimal), instead, it just serves as another "did this mage read up on which bomb to use this fight and respec accordingly" test, aka the "is this mage a noob" test.
    In this way, the Bomb tier has become exactly what Blizz wanted to get away from with the old talents, i.e. something where there really isn't a choice, all there is "did this mage bother to do his homework and read up on what the right talents are", which is precisely what the old talent system suffered from.


    This "illusion of choice" is perhaps one of the biggest reasons to completely redo (or at least, revisit) the bomb tier.


    Now, don't get me wrong, this "illusion of choice" issue exists in other tiers too, the "shield tier" for mages is another perfect example of this (fight has constant low dot dmg? take flameglow. fight has one big hit? take temp shield. fight has a few medium hits? take IB etc...). This way, this "illusion of choice" issue is actually much more widespread than discussed. It is prevalent throughout the mage talents (the level 90 tier is another example), but it is also present in other classes quite a lot as well.



    Ideally, talents should be a playstyle choice, not a power one. Theoretically, there shouldn't be a "wrong choice" for talents. Instead, talents should allow players to accomplish a similar effect, but in a different style. One talent matchup that captures the essence of what I think talents should be is the matchup between Blazing speed and Ice Flows (lets just assume PoM doesn't exist for a second).

    The decision to pick between BS and IF is actually not a bad one. Both accomplish the same thing (i.e. movement DPS), but do it in very different styles with neither being a clear cut winner over what is best in any given situation. Do you want to move while DPSing? Maybe you want to just get to where you are going real fast and continue DPSing then? The choice is there, with no clear winner over the other. PoM actually ruins that tier in this regard, since it again just serves as a 'noob test' ("does the fight have movement? if not, use PoM" etc).



    On the topic of "spell school specific bombs. good/bad?", I choose the latter. I sit firmly in the camp that believes mages shouldn't be completely tied down to the use of just a single spell school that is dictated by spec. There is nothing wrong with Arcane mages using fire spells or frost mages using arcane spells. I still hold to the fact that multi-school casting is a strength of the class that should be built upon.

    However, if it came down to having "school specific bombs" vs "a bomb tier with actual choice", I would perhaps be inclined to accept the former, if it meant I could have the latter. (though if we were to go down the "school specific bomb" route, the actual design of each bomb would have to change dramatically. I do not think we can just give each spec its bomb as it exists right now).



    But all this doesn't really tell us something we didn't already know. The real mag(e)ic trick will be answering this questions:


    How do we redesign the bomb tier so that it serves as an actual choice and not just another illusion?


    I think I have some ideas, but they need some more time in the oven to be cooked right through.
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  16. #36
    Bombs should never have been added. It completely change the playstyle of the Mage class.

    That said, they are a necessity now in the current design. It's our only source of decent on-the-move damage when we can't cast our main nuke.

  17. #37
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    @Zomg : very good topic !!!
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  18. #38
    Feels weird to be using an arcane bomb as Frost, and the application is pretty annoying on large fights. You can squeeze out ok DPS just dotting every mob, but its just 'ok' dps and not best possible. I'm ok with that, and it seems like the design team is too - 'ok' dps for the well, I don't want to say lazy, but let's call it less than motivated to squeak out every last bit of damage.

    Frost Bomb I don't mind so much, works pretty well for me aside from some of the ToT mobs just poofing and the bomb not going off.

    They could possibly change them up to just slightly, if they just plain want to keep each type available to players. Frost staying the same, simple AE for large crowds of mobs that will go down fast. Fire could just be a single target dot + big single target nuke at the end. Arcane could be a low dmg AE that DoTs all that it hits for packs that will last long enough for the DoT to matter and even out the damage.

  19. #39
    I like the design of FB and LB, they're quite good, but I dislike NT

    FB feels good, having it be an actual cooldown limits its spammability so it actually feels like what its supposed to feel like
    LB feels like a real bomb, in the *tick tick tick* BOOM, sense, I like that a lot
    NT just feels like another button that trickles in some damage and looks fancy, if I wanted that from a Mage I'd be a Mage with lots more pets to choose from and some more interesting mechanics *cough*

  20. #40
    Interesting question Zomg, problem is that it assumes Blizzards believes it is a "illusion of choice" and I personally don't believe they feel that way at all. We here on this board, even the people like me who consider themselves to be casual, do not represent the majority of mages. Instead we represent that small minority of mages who try to "squeeze" the best play possible out of their mages.

    Personally, I know NT is probably better in most fights however I loathe using DoT's. Meaning I even violate above statement and will tend to stay with FB. Major part of the reason I tend to stay with FB is that my rotation runs like a finely tuned Shelby GT using FB, whereas with NT it is never that comfortable. So I am making a choice with the bomb tier.

    Blizzard can certainly do a better job with Bombs; eliminate the ability to cast any of them multiple times and move to cleave models. Using some action to cleave, much like Fire used to use Fire Blast/Inferno Blast to cleave. Mages should never be [u[direct[/u] DoT casters, instead we should be the class that can cleave our damage to multiple targets.

    NT is the real culprit, should have never been allowed to be cast on multiple targets, it has moved mages away from being a cleave class.

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