Ret Multi-target/AOE rotation

[Giric]

I switch off between holy and ret for ToT and can do pretty decent numbers on most fights.

Where my numbers seem to dip (relative to the rest of my raid) are on fights that have multiple targets - Horridon being the best example. On trash pulls with a ton of target my numbers rocket up again - its when theres 2-4 targets that my dps goes down.

I think most of our abilities in our single-target rotation have counterparts that we can swap for AOE (CS -> HotR; TV -> DS; SoT -> SoR) - I'm just wondering if any wise and experienced retadin knows at how many targets it becomes more efficient to make each swap (I'm assuming you probably don't swap to them all at once)

I appreciate any help! Thanks!

[Rivin]

Swap CS to HotR and TV to DS at two targets, use Seal of Truth, and stack Censure on both targets.

Swap to Seal of Righteousness at four targets.

[Lucetia]

Swap CS to HotR and TV to DS at two targets, use Seal of Truth, and stack Censure on both targets.

Swap to Seal of Righteousness at four targets.

I don't know about CR -> HotR. Most places I've read you don't swap till about 4 (maybe 3) targets otherwise it's a loss. Seal of Righteousness at about 6 targets. Divine Storm at two targets is still true.

[Giric]

I'm aware that there is some information on the ret sticky, like DS > TV w/ 2+ targets, but those numbers there seem strange to me.
I see that as (and I'm probably wrong - so please correct me)DS's 130% + 130% = 260% > TV's ~320%.

Does the fact that DS is holy damage rather than physical make up for that 60(ish) percent?

Edit - I just realized that my TV does more because I still have T14 set bonus...which complicates things even more for me

[Lucetia]

I'm aware that there is some information on the ret sticky, like DS > TV w/ 2+ targets, but those numbers there seem strange to me.
I see that as (and I'm probably wrong - so please correct me)DS's 130% + 130% = 260% > TV's ~320%.

Does the fact that DS is holy damage rather than physical make up for that 60(ish) percent?

Edit - I just realized that my TV does more because I still have T14 set bonus...which complicates things even more for me

Usually DS is better on TV on 2+ due to Hand of Light.

Let's say you have a 20% mastery rating.
1) You hit Target 1 with a TV for 100k w/Hand of Light that is a total of 120k.
2) Now you hit the same target but also cleave Target 2 with Divine Storm for 50k and 60k for a total of 110k and with Hand of Light doing 22k so you now did 132k in GCD.

Now the numbers vary a lot, but if you crit on at least one of the multiple mobs with DS it can start to outweigh it a lot.

[Rivin]

I'm aware that there is some information on the ret sticky, like DS > TV w/ 2+ targets, but those numbers there seem strange to me.
I see that as (and I'm probably wrong - so please correct me)DS's 130% + 130% = 260% > TV's ~320%.

Does the fact that DS is holy damage rather than physical make up for that 60(ish) percent?

Edit - I just realized that my TV does more because I still have T14 set bonus...which complicates things even more for me

Yeah, because holy damage ignores armor, which means TV gets reduced by ~35% while DS doesn't. I'm pretty sure the 2T14 bonus doesn't change that.

I don't know about CR -> HotR. Most places I've read you don't swap till about 4 (maybe 3) targets otherwise it's a loss. Seal of Righteousness at about 6 targets. Divine Storm at two targets is still true.

That's old information. CS>HotR and TV>DS changed sometime between 5.0 and 5.1 due to updated Simcraft results. Truth>Righteousness changed due to the Righteousness buff in 5.2.

[Lucetia]

That's old information. CS>HotR and TV>DS changed sometime between 5.0 and 5.1 due to updated Simcraft results. Truth>Righteousness changed due to the Righteousness buff in 5.2.

Do you have a source on this? I'm not doubting you would just like to read more on it. Reason I ask is because simcraft is showing Seal of Truth < 4 and Righteousness > 4. As for Hammer of Righteous I've just read that it's been 3+ since it's damage is really weak.

[Revvo]

HoTR at 4+, SoR at 4+ if the adds are gonna last a reasonable amount of time. DS > TV at 2 targets EXCEPT when you have a Holy TV, in which case I believe it's 3 targets you DS > Holy TV, but it's very close.

[Rivin]

Do you have a source on this? I'm not doubting you would just like to read more on it. Reason I ask is because simcraft is showing Seal of Truth < 4 and Righteousness > 4. As for Hammer of Righteous I've just read that it's been 3+ since it's damage is really weak.

Both the Elitist Jerks Ret guide and the official forums Ret guide say to switch to HotR at two targets (well, EJ says 1.7, but whatever). EJ says 4 for Righteousness (official forum guide hasn't been updated since November), which corroborates with what I remember of the discussions when 5.2 was on the PTR and my own experience.

[Lucetia]

Both the Elitist Jerks Ret guide and the official forums Ret guide say to switch to HotR at two targets (well, EJ says 1.7, but whatever). EJ says 4 for Righteousness (official forum guide hasn't been updated since November), which corroborates with what I remember of the discussions when 5.2 was on the PTR and my own experience.

Thanks for the link. I haven't really read the EJ forums lately since some of their info seemed to be out of date for some classes. The LH > ES on 1.7 targets I didn't know about and was wondering when it started getting better.

As for HotR on 2 sounds interesting. It just usually hit weak on 2 targets that I never used it like that, might have to try and messing with it again and see. Though apparently Revvo (post above yours) believes it's HotR at 4+ as well. So not sure

The Righteousness I figured was 4+, before the buff I think it was like 6 or 8+.

Thanks again for the input.

[Giric]

Wow awesome info guys - thanks a ton.

It is surprising to see that HotR on 2 might be the way to go - is that dependent on having a certain amount of mastery before it becomes viable?

[Revvo]

If you take a look into the expression editor on WoL, it's very close for HoTR/CS on 2 targets.
This is me using HoTR on twins, on one occasion. It adds up to 39,810 total damage between both hits.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...%3DTYPE_DAMAGE

This is me using CS on twins throughout the fight. They range from 29k to 180k (lolfeather)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...%3DTYPE_DAMAGE


These numbers are raw, and do not include and mastery.

Now it depends on your mastery, and some RNG, but HoTR SEEMS to do more damage here on 2 targets. HOWEVER, HoTR does not proc your 4pce t15. Seeing as Holy TV > 2 target DS, personally, I'd stick to CS on 2 targets. Obviously this math isn't overly well done considering I only have one instance were I have a HoTR hitting ONLY 2 targets, so I have no idea what buffs I have up or trinket procs, etc. For those of you without 2pce, it may be better to HoTR on 2 targets. It depends heavily on your weapon and mastery level.

HoTR is PROBABLY worth using at 3 targets over CS.

[Guanciale]

I would agree with Revvo and say HoTR is defiantly worth using on 3+ targets. Another Important thing to remember is if you have the new 2 set tier bonus, using the Exorcism Glyph will allow the 6% damage increase to spread to all targets hit by it and is defo worth using in sustained AoE situations

Ank

[Vanderhuge]

How did we manage to go this full thread and miss the fact that DS hits harder at two targets thanks to everyone's favorite ability in the Ret rotation? I can't really add much else because everything else has pretty much been nailed at this point...

[Tomhvk]

Your the lucky one, atleast you get to go ret at some point

As prot pala I havnt played ret during ToT, down side of being OP!