Thread: What trinkets?

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  1. #1

    What trinkets?

    I have renataki's soul charm HC.
    And I have 4 other choices on other trinkets, these are:
    Vicious talisman of the shado-pan assault
    Bad juju
    Runes of re-origination
    Talisman of bloodlust

    So which one to pick? Since runes of re-origination is buffed maybe it's viable? I've done the math and with the proc i'd get 140-160% crit (depending on other agi proccs), that doesn't feel that good since crit is capped at 100% (or?). Also reforging to get max haste is not possible with my gear, although maxing mastery is.
    Last edited by Syrdin; 2013-04-20 at 12:15 PM.

  2. #2
    In case you missed the +45 page thread while you actively searched for an answer:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ility-Trinkets

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Syrdin View Post
    Since runes of re-origination is buffed maybe it's viable? I've done the math and with the proc i'd get 140-160% crit (depending on other agi proccs)
    Why do the math if you can just try it in-game?
    Your math seems a little off, in my item level 525 gear I get 60% crit roughly in total. I don't think 100%+ crit is going to happen this tier. With that said, crit is capped at 104.5% if I'm not mistaken.

    But more on-topic Bad Juju and Renataki's seem to be best in slot. I would however hold on to that Talisman of Bloodlust, I have the feeling it's going to have uses later on.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-04-20 at 02:00 PM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Why do the math if you can just try it in-game?
    Your math seems a little off, in my item level 525 gear I get 60% crit roughly. I don't think 100%+ crit is going to happen this tier. With that said, crit is capped at 104.5% if I'm not mistaken.

    But more on-topic Bad Juju and Renataki's seem to be best in slot. I would however hold on to that Talisman of Bloodlust, I have the feeling it's going to have uses later on.
    Because I cba queuing for lfr atm to check raid buffed, yes I was wrong on my calculations. But yeah, with the procc id have around 99-104.5% crit. (18% mastery, 17% haste = 70% crit and then the 32% crit + the bonus crit u get if agi stuff proccs.)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Syrdin View Post
    Because I cba queuing for lfr atm to check raid buffed, yes I was wrong on my calculations. But yeah, with the procc id have around 99-104.5% crit. (18% mastery, 17% haste = 70% crit and then the 32% crit + the bonus crit u get if agi stuff proccs.)
    That's not how it works, the crit and haste rating is what gets converted into crit. Small error of your calculation is that you need less haste rating for 1% haste compared to crit rating for 1% crit for example. You also have a percentage of base mastery percentage without any mastery rating, but this changes per spec.

    Another error is that raid buffs aren't calculated into the trinket's proc. The 3000 mastery raid buff won't be calculated in, and you keep the 3000 mastery rating after the proc as well. In other words, you could have hit a dummy and seen the same results.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-04-20 at 01:45 PM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  6. #6
    Everyone here will spout Bad juju and Renataki's, while I am leaning more toward Bloodlust and Renataki's. The problem with Bloodlust is that a lot of people do not know how to calculate the haste scaling, so they just go with Bad juju which has extremely erratic up time rates from 20% to upwards of 40% if you're lucky. With RPPM taking over this tier (trinkets, meta and set bonuses) haste > mastery.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    Everyone here will spout Bad juju and Renataki's, while I am leaning more toward Bloodlust and Renataki's. The problem with Bloodlust is that a lot of people do not know how to calculate the haste scaling, so they just go with Bad juju which has extremely erratic up time rates from 20% to upwards of 40% if you're lucky. With RPPM taking over this tier (trinkets, meta and set bonuses) haste > mastery.
    How does the haste affect all these RPPM stuff? I'm hearing from different people that haste will become really great(say ur stat weights are crit 1.5, haste 1.4 then it's worth going haste over crit), also i've heard that stacking haste like crazy is so minimal to the PPM that it wont even be noticeable and wont be worth stacking over a more important stat (like one extra procc in a 10min fight).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Syrdin View Post
    How does the haste affect all these RPPM stuff? I'm hearing from different people that haste will become really great(say ur stat weights are crit 1.5, haste 1.4 then it's worth going haste over crit), also i've heard that stacking haste like crazy is so minimal to the PPM that it wont even be noticeable and wont be worth stacking over a more important stat (like one extra procc in a 10min fight).
    1% haste is 1% more procs if I'm not mistaken. It's completely linear. But I'm sure Tehstool or Kennyloggins can give you a much better and more detailed answer, as the RPPM thing kind of boggles my mind.

    However I haven't seen any solid proof about it being worthwhile. Just theories and math on paper. I tried a full haste build when I got my 4 set and hardly noticed a difference in procs, but meanwhile saw my DPS drop a little bit. Since then I've gotten the legendary meta gem and 1 RPPM trinket so I'm going to try again soon, but so far I'm not very impressed.

    But with that said, a lot of top Hunters do swear by the haste build and I very much doubt they would gimp their DPS for whatever reason. I'm sure it's worthwhile but I personally didn't see any actual real in-game proof.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-04-20 at 02:55 PM.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    1% haste is 1% more procs if I'm not mistaken. It's completely linear.

    However I haven't seen any solid proof about it being worthwhile. Just theories and math on paper. I tried a full haste build when I got my 4 set and hardly noticed a difference in procs, but meanwhile saw my DPS drop a little bit. Since then I've gotten the legendary meta gem and 1 RPPM trinket so I'm going to try again soon, but so far I'm not very impressed.

    But with that said, a lot of top Hunters do swear by the haste build and I very much doubt they would gimp their DPS for whatever reason. I'm sure it's worthwhile but I personally didn't see any actual real in-game proof.
    I went back to mastery, like you said, just because i have ~2k more haste isn't magically gonna make my trinkets proc more, even with 0.6-0.7 rppm from haste i still get 2-4 minute gaps between procs, followed by 3 in a row.

    Myself i'm still not sure it's worth dropping a guaranteed ~3-5% damage from mastery for a slightly increased chance at a proc, especially when you also take into account that both the meta and 4pc scale with mastery ANYWAY, so it's not exactly a binary decision, but mastery will increase damage from 2/5 sources regardless...

    Ultimately we'll have to wait until we all start public logging and if a trend emerges that haste players are beating mastery players outright then i'll probably switch back. But the trinkets are SO RNG right now i'm not entirely convinced it matters...55%/48% uptime mastery players will beat 15%/22% haste players, and vice-versa, roll the dice, see if you win!
    Last edited by Dela2k10; 2013-04-20 at 03:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhazrun View Post
    You know how people talk about how you could just make a piece of rock with a billion health and damage and call it "hard"?

    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
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  10. #10
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    Even with full RPPM gear haste worth is below half of agility's.
    And Bloodlust doesn't give double average compared to Juju or Renataki. Even on low 20% uptime of Juju, you'd need average of 2+ stacks to make Bloodlust better than Juju.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dela2k10 View Post
    Myself i'm still not sure it's worth dropping a guaranteed ~3-5% damage from mastery for a slightly increased chance at a proc, especially when you also take into account that both the meta and 4pc scale with mastery ANYWAY, so it's not exactly a binary decision, but mastery will increase damage from 2/5 sources regardless...
    Don't want to quote your whole post just to share my opinion on the following, but I did read everything.

    Me and my guild are still progressing in Throne of Thunder and currently getting ranked on logs isn't our top priority. So I think doing consistently good damage is more important compared to doing low damage one attempt and really good the other. Now if you just want to get ranked on farm bosses I would totally go for the random roll the dice build as you called it because getting lucky means an easy high rank. But this isn't going to help me during progression fights.

    With that said, and while I'm sure I will be proven wrong since so many top Hunters are already using this build, I will stick with my own numbers I see in-game that I tested myself personally. Mindlessly copying other people has never been a good idea. And without some solid logs to compare I won't be doing that either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    Even with full RPPM gear haste worth is below half of agility's.
    And Bloodlust doesn't give double average compared to Juju or Renataki. Even on low 20% uptime of Juju, you'd need average of 2+ stacks to make Bloodlust better than Juju.
    I only have the LFR version of Talisman of Bloodlust so my uptimes are going to be a little lower than better versions, but I hardly ever saw mine stack to 2. I had 1 stack fairly often but it certainly doesn't have a 100% uptime on that either.

    But like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I would definitely hold onto this trinket. I think when we near BiS gear and especially if haste becomes as good as people speculate it is, this trinket might be very strong. Maybe even next tier.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Don't want to quote your whole post just to share my opinion on the following, but I did read everything.

    Me and my guild are still progressing in Throne of Thunder and currently getting ranked on logs isn't our top priority. So I think doing consistently good damage is more important compared to doing low damage one attempt and really good the other. Now if you just want to get ranked on farm bosses I would totally go for the random roll the dice build as you called it because getting lucky means an easy high rank. But this isn't going to help me during progression fights.
    This is why I'm also playing mastery - just because "i did 185k dps that one pull" because i got 6 back-to-back juju procs doesn't mean it will EVER happen again, nor was it necessarily caused by having 2-4k extra haste (pretty sure someone simmed it to be 20% haste = 1 more proc on average for the 0.6 trinkets) - the stars are gonna align for both reforges, whether it is noticeably different with haste is still relatively unknown.

    With that said, and while I'm sure I will be proven wrong since so many top Hunters are already using this build, I will stick with my own numbers I see in-game that I tested myself personally. Mindlessly copying other people has never been a good idea. And without some solid logs to compare I won't be doing that either.
    Agreed, what i said earlier (and worded badly?) is that "Pure luck" will make a massively bigger difference than which stat you choose to stack

    I only have the LFR version of Talisman of Bloodlust so my uptimes are going to be a little lower than better versions, but I hardly ever saw mine stack to 2. I had 1 stack fairly often but it certainly doesn't have a 100% uptime on that either.

    But like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I would definitely hold onto this trinket. I think when we near BiS gear and especially if haste becomes as good as people speculate it is, this trinket might be very strong. Maybe even next tier.
    If you check my napkin maths in the 5.2 trinket thread i think i worked it out that ToB gives 1.45 stacks on average, so although you'll occassionally see it go 12345........or............12345.5.5.5.5.5...... - the chances are you'll often just see if give you 1 stack, drop, the give 1 again, which doesn't really "help" at all, just causes some retarded Cobra shot shifting and you end up either waiting or delaying shots...

    I sharded my 522 version, because i had 509 boots and i needed more haunting spirits for the crafted ones, and as an enchanter i didn't wanna drain the guild bank unnecessarily - i figured i'll get a 535/541 version on an offspec roll within the next few weeks anyway, we don't have many rogues right now and everyone else seems to be avoiding it like the plague - I'll definitely keep an open mind but at the time, the shard was more valuable to me :P
    Last edited by Dela2k10; 2013-04-20 at 04:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhazrun View Post
    You know how people talk about how you could just make a piece of rock with a billion health and damage and call it "hard"?

    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
    i7-3930k @ 4.6 | Sabertooth X79 | 32GB DDR3-1600 | GTX-680 Jetstream SLI | TX950W

  13. #13
    Oh sorry what I meant with my post after quoting part of yours was ''and related to this, this is my opinion on the matter''. It wasn't really meant as a direct reaction to yours. My mistake, it wasn't very clear.

    Yea dealing with stacks who are about to fall off was very, very frustrating. I've tried just ignoring it completely as well as just mashing a Arcane Shot in and delaying whatever else just came up at the time. I still don't know which method gave me better uptimes or stacks but I found it so frustrating to deal with that I just re-equipped my Bottle of Infinite Stars.

    I'm definitely looking forward to messing around with the normal and heroics versions of this trinket, but I think it's being overrated for us at the moment. It's not bad, but I can't see it beating a high agility proc trinket.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  14. #14
    The rune would most likely give you ~30% crit, not 70%.

    I'd say go with renataki's and either bad juju or the vp trinket depending on your hit rating.


    Also, yes it's linear. 1% haste is a 1% increase in real ppm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela2k10 View Post
    This is why I'm also playing mastery - just because "i did 185k dps that one pull" because i got 6 back-to-back juju procs doesn't mean it will EVER happen again, nor was it necessarily caused by having 2-4k extra haste (pretty sure someone simmed it to be 20% haste = 1 more proc on average for the 0.6 trinkets) - the stars are gonna align for both reforges, whether it is noticeably different with haste is still relatively unknown.


    Agreed, what i said earlier (and worded badly?) is that "Pure luck" will make a massively bigger difference than which stat you choose to stack
    Haste just makes those good luck streaks more probable because each of your attacks will have a higher chance to proc it compared to mastery. How haste scales with real ppm is better than mastery in terms of real ppm damage wise.

    Also 20% haste for renataki's would be .62 real ppm * 1.2 haste = 0.744 real ppm. So you could get an extra proc out of that, it just depends on how long the fight is. It would have to be like 6 minutes long for you to get a little over one more proc.

    This is old, so the haste to mastery exchange would be a bit different, but you can kind of get the idea:

    With the 4 piece with my reforges I'd be trading 2k haste for 2k mastery if I were to reforge mastery > haste. That equates to a 4.7% loss in haste. So you are losing a 4.7% gain in proc rate for everything Real PPM oriented for 3.3% (repeating) gain in damage to the 4 piece and the meta. My 4 piece is hitting for 45k - 90k. So (3 Real PPM * 45k and 90k =) 135k - 270k before haste. Adding the 4.7% into the equation (3 Real PPM * 1.047 * 45k and 90k =) gives me 141,345 - 282,690 damage. Adding 3.3% damage into the first equation (135k + 3.3% and 270k + 3.3%) gives me 139,500 - 279,000. So as you can see mathematically, haste is better by a bit.

    So the 4 piece with
    haste : 141,345 - 282,690 damage
    mastery : 139,500 - 279,000 damage

    same goes with the meta since everything scales linearly.

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  15. #15
    But you also gain damage on abilities not affected by haste (BA/ES/Sting/Arcane), vs slightly more pet/player autoattack speed and cobra casts.

    To me it seems like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

    Mastery feels a safer bet though, since haste is purely "random"
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhazrun View Post
    You know how people talk about how you could just make a piece of rock with a billion health and damage and call it "hard"?

    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
    i7-3930k @ 4.6 | Sabertooth X79 | 32GB DDR3-1600 | GTX-680 Jetstream SLI | TX950W

  16. #16
    Haste was already better than mastery on single target before real ppm though. Just saying.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-20 at 08:50 PM ----------

    Also we will be getting blink strikes which scales with haste. Might have some use on some fights.

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  17. #17
    renataki's soul charm is in my opinion our best trinket by quite a margin ( a couple of k dps over the competitors) and i am running with it and bad juju, although a little off topic i was wondering what offset item are people using to get rid of the huge amount of expertise that comes with the soul charm, currently thinking either helm or legs
    thanks

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Also we will be getting blink strikes which scales with haste. Might have some use on some fights.
    I agree here. I haven't done hard math, but playing around on FD it seems like going haste is going to be superior for BM (after crit). I think we're going to get to that point soon where our pets easily regen to 50 energy between every basic attack.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 04:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by enviy View Post
    renataki's soul charm is in my opinion our best trinket by quite a margin ( a couple of k dps over the competitors) and i am running with it and bad juju, although a little off topic i was wondering what offset item are people using to get rid of the huge amount of expertise that comes with the soul charm, currently thinking either helm or legs
    thanks
    Our offset piece are legs from Lei shen
    http://www.wowprogress.com/character...uzad/Takeaseat
    <Divinity> US-Kel'thuzad 4/7M
    Recruiting exceptional raiders for 20man mythic content. Click here to apply.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    I agree here. I haven't done hard math, but playing around on FD it seems like going haste is going to be superior for BM (after crit). I think we're going to get to that point soon where our pets easily regen to 50 energy between every basic attack.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 04:09 PM ----------



    Our offset piece are legs from Lei shen
    TF Lei Shen legs only sim +100 dps for me over tier legs TF Gaze. Rolled the 535 legs this week and i still cant use them because 541 gaze is so strong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhazrun View Post
    You know how people talk about how you could just make a piece of rock with a billion health and damage and call it "hard"?

    Ra-den is what you get when a designer thinks that's actually a really good idea.
    i7-3930k @ 4.6 | Sabertooth X79 | 32GB DDR3-1600 | GTX-680 Jetstream SLI | TX950W

  20. #20
    yea the bis list is considering every piece is at max level.. if you had H TF lei shen legs then that'd be it.. my god though i'm jealous of your gear dela..

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