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  1. #1
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Why hasn't Blizzard abandoned arenas?

    In the sense of using arena data as a factor in balance.

    As far as I'm aware, the vast majority of PvP that takes place in WoW is in random BGs - since this is where the most people play, this should be the focus for your game. I'm sure the hardcore arena players will start screaming at me now, but they need to accept that they're an increasingly small niche, and I don't see that changing.

    To me, this means that rated Battlegrounds should be where Blizzard pulls the majority of their data from for use in making balance decisions; arena does not translate well to the random Battleground environment, while rated Battlegrounds do.

    A lot of the things that make people get frustrated with PvP (which, again, for most people is random BGs) exist solely because of the emphasis placed on 3v3 arena as a balancing factor. The first things that come to mind are healers being extremely difficult to kill, and the sheer amount of disables in the game. Kills in arena games are often made through forcing cooldowns with disables, and then doing it again once DR timers have reset to secure the kill. Likewise, healers in arenas must be very hard to kill, otherwise there would be little reason to bring a healer along.

    Because BGs allow unlimited respawns and include more players (which also means more classes available), this results in a lot of potential silliness that can't really go away unless they want to also separate arenas and BGs... which would require a lot of work and be pretty dumb.

    So, again - why are Blizzard using 3v3 arena as a balance focus when, since the vast majority of players just play random BGs and little else, rated BGs are a much more relevant source to draw data from?
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  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Razorice's Avatar
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    Because Arenas are one of the most fun things to do in the game. They're also challenging.
    Random BG's are mostly run by bots and people who, well, suck.

  3. #3
    IMO most of the changes made with PvP in mind are for the random BG players. They're the ones that complain the most. The majority of decently ranking arena players I know just deal with it and don't care to spend time getting vocal about changes. All the forum threads you see full of people clamoring for PvP changes are random BG players and often not even frequent random BG players.

  4. #4
    More like, they missed the correct time to abandon them (that was when they were in development during BC beta) and only found out later that the concept was lacking. Ever since then they could not remove arenas without admitting mistakes, losing face, and more understandable, getting a rather big portion of their community raging hard. It's a lot easier to just leave it be. The balancing around 3v3 would then be a convenient way to give arenas artificial meaning.
    Last edited by The Kao; 2013-05-02 at 07:33 AM.

  5. #5
    I'm not a pvp player, but I don't understand it since the release of the arena in 2007.

    Every battleground is build around a certain established type of pvp-gameplay (basically inspired by fps): Capture the flag, domination, assault etc.
    Last man standig (arena) was taken out of the normal battleground rotation, probably because a lms-game is much shorter than a ctf-match. Blizzard wanted to offer a quick-to-join-fast-to-play-pvp-mode, with fights, that only take a few minutes (at best).

    But with this decision they created two parallel universes of pvp gameplay which doesn't really fit together.

    In my opinion it would have been better to create a last man standing battleground (big arena) with 10 vs. 10 players and (let's say about) 3-5 rounds with changeovers etc.

    = Less balancing issues; more friends; more action

  6. #6
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post

    As far as I'm aware, the vast majority of PvP that takes place in WoW is in random BGs - since this is where the most people play, this should be the focus for your game. I'm sure the hardcore arena players will start screaming at me now, but they need to accept that they're an increasingly small niche, and I don't see that changing.

    To me, this means that rated Battlegrounds should be where Blizzard pulls the majority of their data from for use in making balance decisions; arena does not translate well to the random Battleground environment, while rated Battlegrounds do.
    Well..where do you get your numbers from and how do you know what Blizzard uses mainly as data (and how they weight it) to balance pvp?

    Random BGs are..well..random. With pretty random match ups. I say pretty random because I hope there is at least some rudimentory matchmaking so you don't get 10 healers vs 10 dps in a BG....
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  7. #7
    Dreadlord Srg56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post

    So, again - why are Blizzard using 3v3 arena as a balance focus when, since the vast majority of players just play random BGs and little else, rated BGs are a much more relevant source to draw data from?
    Because the random people playing BGs don't know the game enough to care enough to whine about it on the forums, while the arena fanatics are an extremely small niche which if pushed too far will whine so much the forums will drown.


    Quote Originally Posted by Razorice View Post
    Because Arenas are one of the most fun things to do in the game. They're also challenging.
    Random BG's are mostly run by bots and people who, well, suck.
    Because arenas are <insert subjective personal prefference>. They're also hard to get into.
    Random BGs are mostly run by <insert personal experience> and people who aren't as good at the game as i am, so they don't count.



    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Well..where do you get your numbers from and how do you know what Blizzard uses mainly as data (and how they weight it) to balance pvp?

    Random BGs are..well..random. With pretty random match ups. I say pretty random because I hope there is at least some rudimentory matchmaking so you don't get 10 healers vs 10 dps in a BG....
    As IF you need hard numbers to see the self evident. So you're actually arguing that there are more people playing arenas than BGs? Blizzard has said numerous times that the game is balanced around 3v3, and if you need proof, just look at healers, and how they can survive extreme punishment. They are obviously designed to not only keep themselves alive but other players around them. A good healer needs at least 2 players damaging them, and coordinating their interrupts. This leads to ridiculous scenarios where if you put 3 healers at a flag in to defend it, you will not be able to capture that objective, because you need exponentially more dps than healers.
    Last edited by Srg56; 2013-05-02 at 09:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Killyo View Post
    If at launch day they find 150 freshly created threads saying " OMG BLIZZERD! y u did remove my birdyflapflap? u suxs! i will stope playn tis stuped game if u not give backe my birdyflapflap!". When that happens, and it will, they'll reintroduce flying real fast again.

  8. #8
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    As IF you need hard numbers to see the self evident. So you're actually arguing that there are more people playing arenas than BGs? Blizzard has said numerous times that the game is balanced around 3v3, and if you need proof, just look at healers, and how they can survive extreme punishment. They are obviously designed to not only keep themselves alive but other players around them. A good healer needs at least 2 players damaging them, and coordinating their interrupts. This leads to ridiculous scenarios where if you put 3 healers at a flag in to defend it, you will not be able to capture that objective, because you need exponentially more dps than healers.
    And, amusingly, this is almost literally the only reason (Frost Mages being the other) I didn't get massively into PvP with Cataclysm. Rated BGs? Hearing that, and that they'd be given importance in the world of balancing, was like a wet dream.

    Then you play the game and see it's actually balanced around arenas, which leads to RBGs being hilariously stupid... and, well, I guess I went soft pretty fast.

    But as someone said above, removing arenas as a balance focus would be Blizzard admitting that they made a mistake - and their inability to do that is, in my opinion, by far their greatest shortcoming as a company and as a game developer.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    And, amusingly, this is almost literally the only reason (Frost Mages being the other) I didn't get massively into PvP with Cataclysm. Rated BGs? Hearing that, and that they'd be given importance in the world of balancing, was like a wet dream.

    Then you play the game and see it's actually balanced around arenas, which leads to RBGs being hilariously stupid... and, well, I guess I went soft pretty fast.

    But as someone said above, removing arenas as a balance focus would be Blizzard admitting that they made a mistake - and their inability to do that is, in my opinion, by far their greatest shortcoming as a company and as a game developer.
    When RBG's came out they did balance PvP around them (eg. the addition of many aoe cc's) and so many people complained about how they were balancing around battlegrounds that blizzard stopped. Many top PvPer's left the game in cata due to the focus on RBG's.

    At the end of the day all the most well known PvPers arena, it has a huge community with tournaments. Take that away, you not only lose those PvPers but most likely their following as well.

    As to balancing around random BG's OP, i really hope you're trolling. It is the most unorganised and terrible PvP i've seen in just about any game. You're example is just that, an example of unorganised PvP where 15 players can't take down a healer. Do you really want to balance a game around a bunch of people who don't need to communicate and work with each other? Is that not the reason you play online games?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Srg56 View Post
    Because arenas are <insert subjective personal prefference>. They're also hard to get into.
    Random BGs are mostly run by <insert personal experience> and people who aren't as good at the game as i am, so they don't count.
    He's pretty spot on though. Random bgs ARE once again full of bots and bads, which makes balancing around it... irrelevant. (omg I got hit for 400k chaos bolt on my green geared rogue by a lock with berserking, nerf)

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    A lot of the things that make people get frustrated with PvP (which, again, for most people is random BGs) exist solely because of the emphasis placed on 3v3 arena as a balancing factor. The first things that come to mind are healers being extremely difficult to kill, and the sheer amount of disables in the game. Kills in arena games are often made through forcing cooldowns with disables, and then doing it again once DR timers have reset to secure the kill. Likewise, healers in arenas must be very hard to kill, otherwise there would be little reason to bring a healer along.

    Because BGs allow unlimited respawns and include more players (which also means more classes available), this results in a lot of potential silliness that can't really go away unless they want to also separate arenas and BGs... which would require a lot of work and be pretty dumb.
    This sounds like 5 bads hitting one healer in a random bg and can't kill him because they're bad. I destroy noobs hard in random bgs because I force cds and apply the same pressure as I do in arena. You should really come up with a better example of what this potential silliness could be.

    But honestly I think 3v3 is still the best bracket to balance. Rbgs are mostly just an unbalanced clusterfuck of aoe dmg and some spam cc on the healers.

  11. #11
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by panterarules View Post
    When RBG's came out they did balance PvP around them (eg. the addition of many aoe cc's) and so many people complained about how they were balancing around battlegrounds that blizzard stopped. Many top PvPer's left the game in cata due to the focus on RBG's.
    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by panterarules View Post
    At the end of the day all the most well known PvPers arena, it has a huge community with tournaments.
    No, it doesn't. I mean, sure, it has tournaments, but the community isn't huge - especially not compared to the many, many more people who don't give a crap about "competitive PvP" (fucking lol) and just queue for a few BGs between raids or to have a little fun. There's no point in balancing the game around a comparative handful of (extremely vocal) players when the majority of the playerbase plays a gamemode that's at best tangentially related to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helltrixz View Post
    Rbgs are mostly just an unbalanced clusterfuck of aoe dmg and some spam cc on the healers.
    ... Because PvP is designed and balanced around arenas. Which is the point of the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  12. #12
    Random bgs aren't as fun. If they changed them and made them all a little smaller, and maybe add those announce features and maybe made the bg minimaps a little bigger.. Battlegrounds need some more factors to make them more fun and need some adjusting to be taken seriously in rated gameplay.

    I hope in the future expansions they stop adding new stuff like scenarios, pet battles and whatnot and just keep focusing on what they have currently and try perfecting them.

  13. #13
    because 3v3 is the only bracket that has any, ANY bearing of skill involved.
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  14. #14
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRONIClinex View Post
    because 3v3 is the only bracket that has any, ANY bearing of skill involved.
    So? Very few people give a rat's ass about "skill" - they just want to have fun. And currently, PvP isn't particularly fun, and the disconnect between what PvP is balanced around and how it's typically played is a major contributing factor to that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    ... Because PvP is designed and balanced around arenas. Which is the point of the thread.
    And yet you fail to give an example of what that problematic arena design is. Not being able to handle healers in random bgs just means you're bad and I don't know how you want to make up for your lack of skill with game design. If you nerf healer survivability they'll become completely useless in every bracket of arena as well as rbgs and random bgs because any player with actual skill with mop the floor with them.

    Oh and I forgot to add, you won't have any fun whatsoever when I continuosly mop the floor with you when you're on your healer and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.
    Last edited by Helltrixz; 2013-05-02 at 02:56 PM.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRONIClinex View Post
    because 3v3 is the only bracket that has any, ANY bearing of skill involved.
    Except it's dominated by the top 2~3 combos. 2v2 has historically been the most unbalanced bracket but this season it seems way more balanced than 3v3 though matches tend to last as hell since one DPS takes ages to bring down a healer alone.


  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    So? Very few people give a rat's ass about "skill" - they just want to have fun. And currently, PvP isn't particularly fun, and the disconnect between what PvP is balanced around and how it's typically played is a major contributing factor to that.
    Just because you don't enjoy arena there are a LOT of people that do, I agree there is a problem where Arena geared people play against green wearing clothies who get one shotted, and that PvP is very difficult to get into mid season because you have to spend days getting your ass handed to you because you die in seconds because you don't have the gear yet.

    Arena is a lot of fun once you've got the gear and skill to be competative, which is the same for BG's as well, its a problem where neither is fun until that point though.

    But 3v3 is where the majority of the competative PvP is played, random BG's aren't competative PvP because nobody cares about them, they're like heroics - there to be used to gear up in.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    Random bgs aren't as fun. If they changed them and made them all a little smaller, and maybe add those announce features and maybe made the bg minimaps a little bigger.. Battlegrounds need some more factors to make them more fun and need some adjusting to be taken seriously in rated gameplay.
    I find random BG's to be the most fun implementation they have. Arena is pvp under a microscope, and gets old pretty quickly. Rated BG's = 10 vs 10 on a map designed to accomodate 4x that amount = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    Rateds should have been implemented in a way that the game takes your personal w/l record, and places you in a random with folks that have a similar record.

    Randoms are exactly that. You never really know what you're going to be up against, how well they'll play together, etc. Your team may be awful, or not. It's fun because of that.

    Still, as far as the OP's point? Arena is probably still the best methodology for attempting *cough* to balance the pvp side of things. Fewer variables, which oddly enough, is a concept they don't seem to follow themselves

    /just my .02
    Last edited by melodramocracy; 2013-05-02 at 03:32 PM.
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  19. #19
    Yea, and raiders should just accept that the majority of PvE encounters are between a single player and a quest mob. So let's balance the game accordingly...

    I win every random BG I set my foot in by just graveyard camping people like OP. It doesn't need balancing.

  20. #20
    Whole lot of people in this thread that don't understand pvp at all. You have fun when you play with 9 random people that are awful?

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