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  1. #1

    BM, how much stronger than Survival on pure single target?

    @topic. With single target fights I mean fights like jinrokh, durumu, twin consorts, iron qon and megaera (no scumbag dps).

    How much in % stronger is Bm you'd say? I'd say bm is about 10-15% stronger than survival on these encounters. My guildies are going nuts on me and saying BM is a "gimmicky" spec that only does high dmg whenever 5min cds are up and survival is more stable dps and that even survival is stronger than BM on single target. Then they refer to WoL where survival hunters are generally higher, then I said it's because more people play survival.

  2. #2
    Two questions, is this normal or heroic and what kind of gear levels are you talking about?

    4 of those 5 fights you mentioned change drastically on heroic up to the point where you should take Survival over Beast Mastery. And the one fight where that's not the case, you should still go Survival because of how the encounter works.

    But to answer your question, it's about 10% for me as well if I'm not mistaken. Then again, the only fights I would normally go Beast Mastery for are the fight I'm sitting out on. So it's been a while since I last got a proper log.
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  3. #3
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    So then i hope every Mage is Arcane, every Warrior is 1hand Fury, every Rogue is Combat, every Warlock is Destruction, Deathknight is 2Hand Frost, every Shaman is Enhancement and every Druid is Feral in your Group...... if not tell them to stfu

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Two questions, is this normal or heroic and what kind of gear levels are you talking about?

    4 of those 5 fights you mentioned change drastically on heroic up to the point where you should take Survival over Beast Mastery. And the one fight where that's not the case, you should still go Survival because of how the encounter works.

    But to answer your question, it's about 10% for me as well if I'm not mistaken. Then again, the only fights I would normally go Beast Mastery for are the fight I'm sitting out on. So it's been a while since I last got a proper log.
    It's heroic. What fight is survival superior on those I mentioned? Durumu or megaera? (the only bosses I havnt done in heroic)

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-04 at 01:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flura View Post
    So then i hope every Mage is Arcane, every Warrior is 1hand Fury, every Rogue is Combat, every Warlock is Destruction, Deathknight is 2Hand Frost, every Shaman is Enhancement and every Druid is Feral in your Group...... if not tell them to stfu
    I don't understand what you are trying to say?

  5. #5
    High Overlord
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    First i thought it was normal mode and i tried to say no matter which spec, its possible with every spec on normal mode

    but u r talking about heroic there u maybe need the dps/better spec

  6. #6
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrdin View Post
    I don't understand what you are trying to say?
    He says - play the spec you want, unless everyone in your raid is expected to min-max.
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  7. #7
    532 hunter here and as both crit>haste and haste>crit BM is around 8-10k more dps than survival.

    But most fights favor survival greatly in heroic. The only fight I go BM for is dark animus heroic because my pet can still DPS when I get matter swapped out of range, and sometimes jinrokh if I want to mix it up.

    Survival is good because:

    Horridon - aoe adds
    Council - aoe bosses
    Tortos - aoe adds / target swapping
    Megaera - aoe
    JiKun - aoe
    Durumu - aoe ice walls I guess but they aren't hard. I went BM for this for trex pet cause I'm lazy.
    Primordius - target swapping
    Iron Qon - aoe dogs at p4
    Twins - aoe adds
    Lei shen - aoe adds
    Raden - not sure but most likely survival

    Although.............. with 5.3 and beast cleave doing much more damage and having blink strikes, I may consider trying BM out overall. I really like BM a lot and it is probably my favorite spec.
    Last edited by Libertarian; 2013-05-04 at 01:29 PM.

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    532 hunter here and as both crit>haste and haste>crit BM is around 8-10k more dps than survival.

    But most fights favor survival greatly in heroic. The only fight I go BM for is dark animus heroic because my pet can still DPS when I get matter swapped out of range, and sometimes jinrokh if I want to mix it up.

    Survival is good because:

    Horridon - aoe adds
    Council - aoe bosses
    Tortos - aoe adds / target swapping
    Megaera - aoe
    JiKun - aoe
    Durumu - aoe ice walls I guess but they aren't hard. I went BM for this for trex pet cause I'm lazy.
    Primordius - target swapping
    Iron Qon - aoe dogs at p4
    Twins - aoe adds
    Lei shen - aoe adds
    Raden - not sure but most likely survival

    Although.............. with 5.3 and beast cleave doing much more damage and having blink strikes, I may consider trying BM out overall. I really like BM a lot and it is probably my favorite spec.
    What do you base this statement on?

    Also fight duration is really crucial for BM, if fight ends at 4:05 rather than 4:30, 4:05 is less DPS because your BW CD is just about to pop when you kill the boss.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Syrdin View Post
    It's heroic. What fight is survival superior on those I mentioned? Durumu or megaera? (the only bosses I havnt done in heroic)
    Both, the one fight I would consider pure single target is Jin'rokh. And as Beast Mastery it's difficult to line up cooldowns with the pools without heavily delaying some of them.

    On Durumu there are red and yellow adds you can dot up as well as the mentioned ice walls. Megaera has lots of little arcane worms that need to be AoEd down quickly.

    I can't even remember when the last time was I played Beast Mastery anywhere. Durumu normal mode 4 weeks ago maybe?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    On Durumu there are red and yellow adds you can dot up as well as the mentioned ice walls.
    I hate the bloody walls on Durumu, I can't seem to consistently get an angle to aoe more than 2 walls on each side, how do you go abouts handling that? A little off topic, but been meaning to ask hehe.
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  11. #11
    As a heads up BM AOE is vastly improved on 5.3 PTR - the change to Blink Strikes affects Beast Cleave and BC, itself, was buffed again. So, there will be much less urgency to think 'add fight, go surv or gtfo' on add fights, so to speak.

    And to respond to the primary point, BM is very much stronger on some fights. Your guildies are talking out of their asses if they're trying to convince you otherwise, and IMO it's lame of them to try and basically bully you into playing a different spec.

    Stick with the spec you prefer and excel at. Unless they do that crap to everyone in their guild, tell them to kindly stuff it.
    Last edited by Mirishka; 2013-05-04 at 03:17 PM.

  12. #12
    Only fight i play BM on is Heroic Twins. Mainly because i don't need to AoE the Adds. Our tanks just cleave them down.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by timoseewho View Post
    I hate the bloody walls on Durumu, I can't seem to consistently get an angle to aoe more than 2 walls on each side, how do you go abouts handling that? A little off topic, but been meaning to ask hehe.
    I can't take full credit for this because I asked Draco for help on the exact same subject. If you target one of the wall pieces really close to Durumu you are able to Multi-Shot 2 different wall sections and Durumu himself. It sometimes hit the 3rd wall as well but this seems to be quite iffy. I do this while single targetting the wall we want to get down as soon as possible.

    Barrage is great as well for this. If you position that properly you can nearly hit every section on 2 walls.
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  14. #14
    If you are trying to properly do the fights and don't care about just looking good on the meters, BM is better damage on dark animus, iron qon, lei shen, consorts, and ra-den.

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truefire View Post
    If you are trying to properly do the fights and don't care about just looking good on the meters, BM is better damage on dark animus, iron qon, lei shen, consorts, and ra-den.
    (Only counting US/EU(25hc wherever can, otherwise 25N)) logs, since Eastern players have higher iLvl gear)

    Dark Animus: SV top log by 10k, SV has 60 parses, BM has 10
    Iron Qon: BM wins by 600 DPS, SV has 153 parses, BM has 62
    Twin Consort(25N): BM wins by 11k, SV lowest 113.6k, BM lowest 120.9k
    Lei Shen(25N): SV wins by 14k, SV lowest 124.6k, BM lowest 87.2k(and doesn't even have maxed out parses count, only at 178)
    Ra-Den: No info.

    Keep in mind, some of these are deliberately boosted logs(Mostly the normal ones I believe), Top logs for Twins(25N) are definitely boosted, 4 people from 2 guilds each ranking well above the 5th parser.

    From the Heroic logs you can definitely make out that SV is the better spec currently.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    From the Heroic logs you can definitely make out that SV is the better spec currently.
    Not on any of the fights he just listed.


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  17. #17
    I am talking only about heroic, and speaking from experience playing both specs on all these fights, BM is the better spec to kill the fights. Your numbers will look better on dark animus and consorts as survival because of the ability to srs every add on animus and the aoe phase on consorts, but from a pure damage standpoint on the correct targets, BM will win every time. For all the other fights I named, BM will show up better on logs and do more damage on proper targets.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Truefire View Post
    I am talking only about heroic, and speaking from experience playing both specs on all these fights, BM is the better spec to kill the fights. Your numbers will look better on dark animus and consorts as survival because of the ability to srs every add on animus and the aoe phase on consorts, but from a pure damage standpoint on the correct targets, BM will win every time. For all the other fights I named, BM will show up better on logs and do more damage on proper targets.
    Is this 10 or 25 man?
    On twins you need the adds to die as soon as possible so you can focus on the main boss again, not to mention that you can multi-dot both up in the final phase and during tears of the sun in the first phase. The latter will make you look way worse on logs, yet helps your raid out more than BM's advantage. I'd dare say that this makes Beast mastery look better on logs yet makes you do less damage to the correct targets.

    Dark Animus depends on your strategy. We didn't quite kill it yet (although I'm expecting a kill on Sunday) but we are using 2 Hunters who tank one of the adds with their pet. All this Beast Mastery damage is wasted because the final golems are being drained up. Not to mention that you aren't using a DPS pet but a tanking pet for half of the fight. Making, yet again, Survival the top choice.

    How is multi-dotting not helping your raid on Dark Animus anyway? The mobs that are supposed to die need to be brought down. Whether that's single target or multi-dot damage.

    From a pure damage standpoint, Survival is the top choice on both of these fights.
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  19. #19
    Talking about 25 man, for consorts, it's definitely not needed for hunters to be survival to kill adds. BM is better damage for killing Suen which is what should be focused on to kill the boss. You mentioned keeping dots on Suen during p1 but that's irrelevant since most early progression kills required hard switching to Suen every instance she is out in p1. For animus, if you are required to tank adds with your pet, then yes survival would be only option. The reason why I believe multi dotting is not helping your raid as survival on that fight is because other classes actually get other benefits from keeping dots on the other mobs and unless you are struggling to have them low enough to put into the massive before time is up, it is generally better to be BM and just do better boss damage while the locks/moonkins/spriests take care of the adds because they have the better means and resources to do so. We have to give up almost all of our boss damage in order to keep golems multi dotted, while say a demo lock could just put doom on all of them and have more imps spawn and actually do better boss damage. It's not as big of a gain for spriests/moonkin as it is for a demo lock to keep everything dotted but the adds do have to die at a certain point and they lose out on much less boss damage than a hunter attempting to do the same job.
    Last edited by Truefire; 2013-05-04 at 10:18 PM.

  20. #20
    It's all about maximizing raid damage, sure if you look at the logs when some survival hunter just dotted up everything then of course SV will look better.

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