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  1. #1

    Primordius 10H as Elemental... hahaha, just joking..

    .. seriously, I'm honestly interested in how many Elemental shaman killed Primordius 10H and didnt get switched out in favour of a warlock alt?

    Okay, now totally being serious. I didnt get switched out for a warlock alt (but a main), but it felt frustrating that we lack so behind on this multi-target, fast-target-switching, being completely useless even while having 5 stacks because all your CDs (PFE, Asc) arent ready yet. I didnt expect to get be in the first kill or even second or third, but it gets laughable that it doesnt matter how much gear you get you cant replace anyone else on this fight.

    Stalking other shaman wowprogress profiles, seeing them also suffering...... then heading to totemspot, where Bink tries to tell us that Elemental is okay... errr.. yes.

    In all of ToT (now 10/13H), every caster DPS is pretty much good on a competitive level... except for Elemental shaman because of problems we reported back in MoP beta.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  2. #2
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Thing is they are in a good Place, and for many fights they're preferred over enhancement. I had never played elemental until this tier when my guild forced me to learn because being enhancement is "holding us back". I feel like as a whole, both dps specs are in an okay place but a lot of classes and specs are in a much better one.

    Lets not forget the new trend of Resto having to be pure mana batteries for other healers :/ its not our time in ToT..
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    Thing is they are in a good Place, and for many fights they're preferred over enhancement. I had never played elemental until this tier when my guild forced me to learn because being enhancement is "holding us back". I feel like as a whole, both dps specs are in an okay place but a lot of classes and specs are in a much better one.

    Lets not forget the new trend of Resto having to be pure mana batteries for other healers :/ its not our time in ToT..
    With all fairness, you're at 2/13H and the bosses where you most likely will sit out on are Council & Primordius H. You'll just be somehow good at Durumu H, depends on your role and your guilds tactic you'll also see varying DPS on Ji-Kun H (second favourite boss as Elemental). Jinrokh and most other easier H bosses arent crucial once your guild gets better gear and they die faster.. your DPS will suffer compared to a first kill/progression time on the same boss.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  4. #4
    Although we're not the best spec for the fight in general we sort of have a niche in killings adds off the horror with CL. Relieves other dps off horror as I can pretty much burn down the horror by myself and finish off any adds that are grouped that our aff warlock has brought low. Not really ever top dps on that fight but I do bring a lot of comfort in that there are always puddles to be absorbed and the horror is taken care of while still keeping up with the dps pack. People can focus on staying alive and doing what needs to be done rather then worrying about puddles.

    Logs are currently private but I did 156k dps this week to give you an idea Since this is sort of on topic only fight I've sat for was our first maegera kill but i've been in on every kill since then.

  5. #5
    Scarab Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    With all fairness, you're at 2/13H and the bosses where you most likely will sit out on are Council & Primordius H. You'll just be somehow good at Durumu H, depends on your role and your guilds tactic you'll also see varying DPS on Ji-Kun H (second favourite boss as Elemental). Jinrokh and most other easier H bosses arent crucial once your guild gets better gear and they die faster.. your DPS will suffer compared to a first kill/progression time on the same boss.
    Not like he doesn't have a point. Reason enha is getting buffed in 5.3 is because even their single target damage struggles against ele these days, while ele has it's aoe and range perks.

    I'm sad to see blizzard are still holding resto in place, though. Really seems like they're just not too interested in Rsham's performance as much as others right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  6. #6
    I completely disagree with anyone saying elemental is in a good spot right now. This has been one of the most frustrating tiers to date as an elemental shaman. We are good on a few fights, but we are near useless on several fights (and by useless i mean there are much much better options to bring in), and the fights in between the good and useless we are meh.

    Heroic Primordius, Heroic Twins, Heroic Tortos (if you kite bats), Heroic Council (if you are stuck on ranged add and not able to cleave majority of fight), etc etc are all examples of extremely poor fights for Ele (some depending on strat).

    We have a few good fights, such as Heroic Durumu, but its not enough to warrant bringing in an Ele for each progression fight. I have never seen a Boomkin, Lock, Mage, Shadow Priest get sat because their class underperforms on certain fights. They each do well on their "bad" fights, but on multi target fights they simply shine and this tier has soooo many multi dot fights its ridiculous.

    Imo Ele should be one of the highest single target casters, because we simply can not compete when it comes to all these dual dot fights. I would be ok with dual dotters winning meters every fight, if i could atleast bring excellent single target to make up for our extremely underwhelming multi target damage.

    Instead, elemental has the lowest single target damage of any caster. Its just mind boggling.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Raiju's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone here is claiming elemental is in an awesome position or anything. It improved over last tier and it is arguably the strongest shaman spec right now, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  8. #8
    People, I didnt say that we are worse than other shaman specs, I compare us to other caster DPS - the field where we actually compete. Make your own rant threads about enhancer and resto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuke View Post
    Although we're not the best spec for the fight in general we sort of have a niche in killings adds off the horror with CL. Relieves other dps off horror as I can pretty much burn down the horror by myself and finish off any adds that are grouped that our aff warlock has brought low. Not really ever top dps on that fight but I do bring a lot of comfort in that there are always puddles to be absorbed and the horror is taken care of while still keeping up with the dps pack. People can focus on staying alive and doing what needs to be done rather then worrying about puddles.

    Logs are currently private but I did 156k dps this week to give you an idea Since this is sort of on topic only fight I've sat for was our first maegera kill but i've been in on every kill since then.
    Why you keep logs private at this stage of progression? Anyways.. do you have a movie from your PoV? Would be ideal.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  9. #9
    Our elemental shaman did just fine on our first and second kills of primordius 10hc. We are 10/13hc atm and ele seems to do great on every fight. No one else will touch where destro locks are on primordius just because of how the mechanics work so choosing one fight to talk about doesnt make for a good argument.

  10. #10
    Epic!
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    9/13 and not a Shaman but we ran an Ele Shaman on our 10H last night and killed Primordius. He just maintained buffs (didn't really get transformed until his buffs were about to fall off) and used chain lightning off the new blob. Someone has to focus on the big adds and kill the little adds, and that plays to elemental strengths pretty well.

    If nobody kills the little adds at a consistent pace you make raid damage way higher and boss DPS plummets, someone has to do it. Near the end when he was low enough our ele shaman just blasted the boss of course.

    Our Warlock was also cleaving them with RoF but instead of FnB spam he just focused more damage on the boss and we let our Elemental Shaman do it.

    The only boss we sat our elemental shaman for was Heroic Council, mostly because there aren't enough targets all the time for his cleave to be good and he can't necessarily switch targets very well.

    I don't think Primordius is bad for Elemental though, not as bad as Council.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrysteel View Post
    I completely disagree with anyone saying elemental is in a good spot right now. This has been one of the most frustrating tiers to date as an elemental shaman. We are good on a few fights, but we are near useless on several fights (and by useless i mean there are much much better options to bring in), and the fights in between the good and useless we are meh.

    Heroic Primordius, Heroic Twins, Heroic Tortos (if you kite bats), Heroic Council (if you are stuck on ranged add and not able to cleave majority of fight), etc etc are all examples of extremely poor fights for Ele (some depending on strat)
    .

    We have a few good fights, such as Heroic Durumu, but its not enough to warrant bringing in an Ele for each progression fight. I have never seen a Boomkin, Lock, Mage, Shadow Priest get sat because their class underperforms on certain fights. They each do well on their "bad" fights, but on multi target fights they simply shine and this tier has soooo many multi dot fights its ridiculous.

    Imo Ele should be one of the highest single target casters, because we simply can not compete when it comes to all these dual dot fights. I would be ok with dual dotters winning meters every fight, if i could atleast bring excellent single target to make up for our extremely underwhelming multi target damage.

    Instead, elemental has the lowest single target damage of any caster. Its just mind boggling.
    Exactly what I'm talking about!
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  12. #12
    I do the same as Ryuke. CL on the horrors is decent and allows other dps more time on the boss or killing little oozes. A few kills I never mutated, sure my dps was low but I did my job in the raid. Last night I did mutate twice while being on horrors and pulled 159K. Primo is a terrible example because our secondary stats have such poor scaling when compared to other casters. Your dps is really dependent on what buffs you get.

    As far as other fights go I'll agree our single target dps is to low. This has been the case for quite awhile though and shouldn't be something new to anyone playing an elemental. I was able to talk to the raid leader and be assigned to roles that let me cleave into adds or bosses like council.

    Hopefully the few people in the shaman community blizzard talks to can relay this point. Unless your in a progression oriented guild though this only affects a small sampling of players so I doubt blizzard really cares.
    Last edited by Intrepid1; 2013-05-02 at 07:11 PM.

  13. #13
    You're using your CDs before you get 5 stacks? Forgive me, but I think that may be part of the issue.

  14. #14
    To make good use of any class you must know their strengths and weaknesses. Someone in this thread mentioned Twins as one of the fights they are weak in which I think is just wrong when it comes down to how we handled the encounter. I personally would only toss out a SB:seed to dot the adds once and our ele would take them down the rest of the way so we could all gain more single target dps since he doesnt lose any with 5+ targets or w/e.

    We use this philosophy to make all of our strats and it seems to have worked well. Most guilds I see just want to pad the crap out of the meters and waste many extra attempts because they didnt have enough dps to kill the boss in the end and they work their way backwards through progression instead of forward.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    9/13 and not a Shaman but we ran an Ele Shaman on our 10H last night and killed Primordius. He just maintained buffs (didn't really get transformed until his buffs were about to fall off) and used chain lightning off the new blob. Someone has to focus on the big adds and kill the little adds, and that plays to elemental strengths pretty well.

    If nobody kills the little adds at a consistent pace you make raid damage way higher and boss DPS plummets, someone has to do it. Near the end when he was low enough our ele shaman just blasted the boss of course.

    Our Warlock was also cleaving them with RoF but instead of FnB spam he just focused more damage on the boss and we let our Elemental Shaman do it.

    The only boss we sat our elemental shaman for was Heroic Council, mostly because there aren't enough targets all the time for his cleave to be good and he can't necessarily switch targets very well.

    I don't think Primordius is bad for Elemental though, not as bad as Council.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ericprydz View Post
    Our elemental shaman did just fine on our first and second kills of primordius 10hc. We are 10/13hc atm and ele seems to do great on every fight. No one else will touch where destro locks are on primordius just because of how the mechanics work so choosing one fight to talk about doesnt make for a good argument.
    Thanks for the input - a video of your shaman on Prim H or a different PoV doing your strat on him would be nice.

    Like I said before, your elementals progressed on that fight. Others, who benched them, have to relearn a different strat or role assignment... and actually be willing to spend some tries to get fimiliar with the new situation, before they bring that warlock.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-02 at 07:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    You're using your CDs before you get 5 stacks? Forgive me, but I think that may be part of the issue.
    2nd 5 stack phase is coming shortly after the 1st - never said that I used them before the 1st ones.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    2nd 5 stack phase is coming shortly after the 1st - never said that I used them before the 1st ones.
    So, you use them when you get your first 5 stack, 2 minutes later that falls off, and 1 minute later you have your CDs back with a new 5 stack that has a minute left on it. I don't see the issue.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post


    Why you keep logs private at this stage of progression? Anyways.. do you have a movie from your PoV? Would be ideal.
    Dunno higher ups just said they'll be private until end of progress at the start of it. We've had a lot of trouble with people quitting the game for separate reasons and having to recruit more core and having our MT gone for the first week of heroics so we're about 3 weeks behind in progression with an actual solid group we were not planning for so many to leave and actually competing for top 20 or so lei shen kills BUT ANYWAYS. I do not typically record, I'll look into frapsing next week's kill.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    So, you use them when you get your first 5 stack, 2 minutes later that falls off, and 1 minute later you have your CDs back with a new 5 stack that has a minute left on it. I don't see the issue.
    With 4pc ascendance is almost back up by the time your first 5 stack drops.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuke View Post
    Dunno higher ups just said they'll be private until end of progress at the start of it. We've had a lot of trouble with people quitting the game for separate reasons and having to recruit more core and having our MT gone for the first week of heroics so we're about 3 weeks behind in progression with an actual solid group we were not planning for so many to leave and actually competing for top 20 or so lei shen kills BUT ANYWAYS. I do not typically record, I'll look into frapsing next week's kill.
    Nice, would be awesome. Going to talk with my raid leader to get a different role on that fight.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  20. #20
    After going through and reading more of everyone's responses it seems as though it is more of a strat problem than anything else. Figure out a way to get through to your guildmates in the prep phase of building a good strat and then again while actually executing it during your pulls and all will be fine.

    Some of the examples I can tell you that are a strat problem are:
    Twins: ele is great at not losing single target dps from killing adds during p1 and the p2 transition which helps a lot on their overall damage
    Tortos: Kiting bats is a strat problem and some classes always gets screwed from things like that
    Primordius: Blowing CDs at the start and not having a good strat so people can get 3 transforms in EACH is a strat issue and nothing else. Check out this log from our second kill http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kmfkc...=12067&e=12447
    Council: here again is another bad strat example that most guilds use. Try cleaving adds down and putting the priest away from others. You only need to dps the priest during empower when you can also bring the priest in with the rest of them and aoe hard. Another log from our second kill http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-1u...?s=6109&e=6539

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