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  1. #1

    2H Frost: Haste vs. Strength

    I'm still a bit unsure as to whether gemming for Haste over Strength is the way to go for 2H Frost DPS (most guides seem to suggest it is). But when I configure my character to use Strength over Haste - Bold (Str.) Primordial Rubies for red slots, Etched (Str./Hit) Imperial Amethysts for blue slots, and Fierce (Str./Haste) Vermilion Onyxes for yellow slots - I see a slight (about 630) DPS increase for prioritizing Strength over Haste in SimulationCraft parses. I guess what I'm looking for is some real-world application of Haste vs. Strength gemming, does it grant a better AoE rate for multi-mob situations or more pure DPS that a simulation simply can't account for?
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  2. #2
    Str>Haste for gems in pretty much every situation other than Patchwerk fights (that don't exist this tier)

  3. #3
    Sims typically overvalue haste because they assume a higher uptime than what is actually typical. The more uptime you have, the more resources (i.e. GCDs) you can use, which means you have room to produce more resources, which inflates haste as it allows you to generate more resources (RPPM also plays a factor in this). In reality, you don't have those extra GCDs that the haste goes toward, so the extra generation is simply lost.

    The specific parameters you used to perform these tests would be appreciated, as they all greatly affect haste's value. E.g., latency, movement, number of targets, fight length variance, and AMS-soaking, to name the most dominant ones. Depending on how you configure these, SimC will tell you haste > strength, or strength > haste.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    The specific parameters you used to perform these tests would be appreciated, as they all greatly affect haste's value. E.g., latency, movement, number of targets, fight length variance, and AMS-soaking, to name the most dominant ones. Depending on how you configure these, SimC will tell you haste > strength, or strength > haste.
    20% Length variance, run multiple times for 1-5 targets, 450s avg. fight length, "LightMovement" style modelling, raid boss level configuration. Skill setting is "Good" with 10,000 iterations on 2 threads and "Low" latency. I enabled scaling models for Strength and Haste, and the output each time seems to favor Strength > Haste by a fair margin.

    I appreciate the power of simulating for testing models, but I recognize it has its limitations. So what I'm looking for is that real-world application of people who are currently favoring one over the other to get a better idea of what's practical.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2013-05-01 at 05:42 PM.
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  5. #5
    Just realistically... what fights are u 100% uptime this tier? Basically none of them. Str > Haste

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I appreciate the power of simulating for testing models, but I recognize it has its limitations. So what I'm looking for is that real-world application of people who are currently favoring one over the other to get a better idea of what's practical.
    Think about that rationally for a minute.

    Haste doesn't do anything directly to increase the damage of any of your abilities, it just gives you more of those abilities within a set time via more runes, auto-attacks and the associated procs involved. In a vacuum it's very nice because overall it's more runes for your money.

    Now, think about context to any fight for the last several tiers, or let me cherry-pick some extreme examples from this tier. Iron Qon? There's multiple instances there where he will either be out of melee range for you entirely (Windstorm) or may abruptly be immune to your damage for a short period of time (Deadzone). Now, how would more runes per minute be better then another stat making slightly less runes per a minute, do more damage per-rune in the short time you have to DPS the boss between these occasions?

    That's where strength starts to lead and that's why by and large 2H Frost DKs are favoring it as their primary stat still, any instance where we have to break melee with the boss at all devalues Haste as it needs pretty much 100% boss uptime to garner the realistic average extra RPM to outweigh the DPR of strength.

    In simplest terms. When you've got only 10 GCDs to hit the boss before having to dance, would you rather hit A full 10 buttons for 90k each, or 8 buttons for 130k each?
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Think about that rationally for a minute.
    Rationality was basically the essence of that statement, yes. I tend to agree that Strength > Haste based on both your and others description; and the fact that SimulationCraft is *also* bearing that result out (although it probably underestimates Strength a bit more than a real-world case would).
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  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Sims also don't utilize Anti-Magic Shell as a dps cooldown (which it is) to generate Runic Power, which greatly reduces the value of haste. Gem Strength, Strength/Haste, and Strength/Hit in the appropriate socket bonuses IF the bonus makes it worthwhile (meaning use a +160 strength in a blue socket rather than 80 strength/160 hit for a 60 crit bonus).


    Edit: looks like someone already touched on it.

  9. #9
    Out of curiosity, what guides do you see that say gemming haste is better than gemming strength?
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendenbarr View Post
    Out of curiosity, what guides do you see that say gemming haste is better than gemming strength?
    I can't say I've seen any guides specifically stating that, HOWEVER - AskMrRobot and a few other stat-calculators which offer re-gemming advice as a baseline function will work the default stat weights literally, and if you don't adjust them properly advise gemming full haste.

    For example, just go to Ask Mr. Robot and hit 'optimize me' on the default settings. You'll see a lot of yellow haste gems.
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  11. #11
    There are also some debates about it on various DK forums here and there. The main crux of it seems to the question as to whether excess Haste can shore up the occasional "dead zones" you get in the DK APL/rotation - places where all your runes are on CD and you don't have the RP reserves necessary for a Frost Strike (annoyingly and often coinciding with a Killing Machine proc, in my experience). It's one of those real-world scenarios that just can't be properly simulated, and I've no idea if its product of player error or just an effective gap in rune and RP generation that occurs ever so often.
    Look at these eyebrows! They're attack eyebrows. You could take bottle tops off with these. They’re cross. Crosser than the rest of my face. They’re independently cross. They probably want to cede from the rest of my face and set up their own independent state of eyebrows.

  12. #12
    The dead zones are properly simmed, but are also not always happening. If haste only gives it's full benefit during the 10-20% of the total time, the time you're in a dead zone, and strength gives a benefit 100% of the time, in a dead zone or not, that gives strength the potential to be a stronger stat overall even if it's weaker during the dead zones. And in our case it is.
    Debates are good, but if you do see any guides spouting "you should gem straight haste", please let me know.
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  13. #13
    No better feeling than pressing frost strike 5 times in a row and not having a single rune proc.

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  14. #14
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    Hey all i've just gone 2H frost for the first time since wrath and have been doing well but stil shy of where i want to be and this convo is one i've had with many and it seems i have been wrong gemming haste. Heres my toon so what ve done here is consdiered wrong?!
    If so whats a good figure to put into askmrrobot to fix this from occuring?
    Cheers all

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  15. #15
    I would just make sure the weight for Strength is more than 2 times that of Haste or else robot will always recommend you use Haste gems. IE if Haste value is 2.01 make sure Strength is at least 4.03 and it will always recommend Strength over Haste where applicable.
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  16. #16
    Remember that haste makes your RPPM stuff proc more. So more haste means more trinket uptime, more setbonus procs and more legendary meta procs. It's not as simple as just filling rotation holes.

  17. #17
    The difference between strength and haste priority gem strategies is still pretty minor. There are ranking parses for 2hand frost using both strategies, though strength priority seems to be more popular and overall is probably preferred for most fights.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendenbarr View Post
    The dead zones are properly simmed, but are also not always happening. If haste only gives it's full benefit during the 10-20% of the total time, the time you're in a dead zone, and strength gives a benefit 100% of the time, in a dead zone or not, that gives strength the potential to be a stronger stat overall even if it's weaker during the dead zones. And in our case it is.
    Debates are good, but if you do see any guides spouting "you should gem straight haste", please let me know.
    So far I've seen Haste suggested by both Ask Mr. Robot (using the default weights it provides for Frost 2H PvE DPS) as well as Noxxic's 5.2 Gemming and Enchant guide for both D2 and 2H Frost DK's (seen here: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/death-...ts-professions). I'm still seeing better performance from prioritizing Strength over Haste for gemming overall, but the Haste over Strength contingent definitely has a strong voice in quite a few guides as well as the forums.

    UPDATE: Icy Veins' Gems and Enchants guide for 2H Frost DK's seems to be in the Strength > Haste camp (per http://www.icy-veins.com/frost-death...ns-consumables).
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  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    So far I've seen Haste suggested by both Ask Mr. Robot (using the default weights it provides for Frost 2H PvE DPS) as well as Noxxic's 5.2 Gemming and Enchant guide for both D2 and 2H Frost DK's (seen here: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/death-...ts-professions). I'm still seeing better performance from prioritizing Strength over Haste for gemming overall, but the Haste over Strength contingent definitely has a strong voice in quite a few guides as well as the forums.

    UPDATE: Icy Veins' Gems and Enchants guide for 2H Frost DK's seems to be in the Strength > Haste camp (per http://www.icy-veins.com/frost-death...ns-consumables).
    *technically* the SEP of haste is over .5 HOWEVER the value of gems and the value of secondary stats are not always exactly equal for a DK. That's AMR's problem.

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    So far I've seen Haste suggested by both Ask Mr. Robot (using the default weights it provides for Frost 2H PvE DPS) as well as Noxxic's 5.2 Gemming and Enchant guide for both D2 and 2H Frost DK's (seen here: http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/death-...ts-professions). I'm still seeing better performance from prioritizing Strength over Haste for gemming overall, but the Haste over Strength contingent definitely has a strong voice in quite a few guides as well as the forums.

    UPDATE: Icy Veins' Gems and Enchants guide for 2H Frost DK's seems to be in the Strength > Haste camp (per http://www.icy-veins.com/frost-death...ns-consumables).
    Those sites are using stock stat weights for a specific item level, and aren't specific to your character. Honestly, they're just plain wrong. If you want your exact stat weights you need to use Simulation Craft for light/heavy movement fights, it will tell the same thing most people here are. Strength>2xHaste

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