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  1. #1

    MoP ruined Affliction

    In MoP Destro mechanics and way of playing improved...Demo some good some bad...but Affliction got absolutely ruined.....giving this class a spell it needs to channel (Mal Grasp) while every class can interrupt, silence, stun, and to top it off just plain laugh at the dot dmg without this being cast is complete ignorance...Honestly I know hindsight is always 20/20 but not one person in development said "ummmm wont this get interrupted in pvp?" hey lets add to that making coil a talent you have to waste a point on and takeaway the SB/Nightfall proc....The old Haunt system was far better and the Affliction class feel like....well, affliction....its to bad it cannot be fixed and reverted bc I have read far more posts on here and MMO supporting the fact that locks seasoned and somewhat new would support the change back to the old system. I sincerely hope in the next xpac they remove the need to channel MG

  2. #2
    Strictly PvP here:
    SB:Soulswap Ruined the spec, Not MG.
    Every Class could interrupt shadowbolt or drain life or whatever u used before just as MG. Its because the dot application is really easy that they had to make the dots less effective. The spec needs SB:SS on a 15sec cd and regular SS on a 30 and rebalance dot dmg and MG, Which will simply not happen in the middle of an expansion.
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  3. #3
    Dreadlord dawawe's Avatar
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    Anyone remember at the start of cata when blizz said they didnt want Affliction locks to use drain life filler becaese its mad us feel like Spriests? Then they turn around and give us a channeled filler.

    OT: PVP affliction is still nice to play with (3s,5s,rbs in some comps) but demo is the way to go is u cant juke or hate casts/channeling i just pvp as destro in rbgs and aff everything else. Just use Fel Flame if u get locked out on a channel ive gone whole matches in 3s with just SB:SS and fel flame and won MG is for big bursty kill calls
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Confined View Post
    Strictly PvP here:
    SB:Soulswap Ruined the spec, Not MG.
    Every Class could interrupt shadowbolt or drain life or whatever u used before just as MG. Its because the dot application is really easy that they had to make the dots less effective. The spec needs SB:SS on a 15sec cd and regular SS on a 30 and rebalance dot dmg and MG, Which will simply not happen in the middle of an expansion.
    I don't think the spec is ruined at all, just weak in PvP atm

    You didn't really cast Sbolt/Drain Life, you used most your time on dotting the entire team, and casting fears, banish - Curses and such.
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  5. #5
    As someone who has mained a lock since vanilla launch and played as Aff for about 95% of that I will say that (pve-wise) Aff in MoP has "felt" the best is ever has.
    Conversely, in pvp, I haven't felt this "weak" since pre-Death Coil vanilla (when just looking at a warrior would result in death, rogues could kill you at whim and shaman were as gods).

    Quote Originally Posted by Confined View Post
    Strictly PvP here:
    SB:Soulswap Ruined the spec, Not MG.
    Every Class could interrupt shadowbolt or drain life or whatever u used before just as MG. Its because the dot application is really easy that they had to make the dots less effective. The spec needs SB:SS on a 15sec cd and regular SS on a 30 and rebalance dot dmg and MG, Which will simply not happen in the middle of an expansion.
    I disagree and think the SB:SS issue is way overblown (as an excuse/source of the problem). DoT dmg with and without MG is sorta at a sweet spot in pve right now (even if I do feel the Corruption dmg nerf and SoC radius nerf were totally unnecessary). The issue is a matter of playstyle not translating well to pvp at all.

  6. #6
    Affliction in PVE was improved incredibly. It was ruined in PVP.
    Destruction in PVE was ruined imo. It was fixed in PVP.
    Demonology was never my favourite in any environment and never will be. The concept just isn't my thing.

  7. #7
    Not all specs are good in PvP. That doesn't mean they're ruined. To be fair if the barometer for a class being in a good place or broken was PvP most of the game is completely screwed right now.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by syphonlife View Post
    I have read far more posts on here and MMO supporting the fact that locks seasoned and somewhat new would support the change back to the old system. I sincerely hope in the next xpac they remove the need to channel MG
    Well you never know what the future holds in an MMO, but I think reading far more posts complaining about it is only cause you don't go out and post about something that you like. In PvP circles the change to channeled MG might have been badly recieved, but the mechanic in PvE works well.

    And it's not the channel that's the problem, Spriests have a channeled filler too, yet they seem to do fine in PvP. It's the fact our channel interacts with our dots to supercharge them that's the problem. This was not the initial design though. In the initial design the dots were stronger and MG simply speeded up their tick speed. It was still a throttle on what damage you could put out, but not as massive as buffed ghost dots turned into, I think.

    So I think Affliction was meant to be toned down in multidotting specifically with MG, I just think the iterated version that we have now turned out to be worse for PvP then intended.

    I personally like the fact we have a channeled filler, and I hope we keep it, but I think some thought will be put into adressing the ghost dot problem and perhaps making sure our dots are stronger again, while still keeping our multidotting in check.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    Destruction in PVE was ruined imo. It was fixed in PVP.
    I could not disagree more... in cata... chaos bolt, our signature spell, was OPTIONAL. It was considered neutral dps to use. I honestly felt like a fire mage. Now, chaos bolt is top 2 damage on all fights and we feel unique. Yes, the rotation is simple, but the skill of it relies on watching 3 things at once (embers, procs, mechanics).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    I could not disagree more... in cata... chaos bolt, our signature spell, was OPTIONAL. It was considered neutral dps to use. I honestly felt like a fire mage. Now, chaos bolt is top 2 damage on all fights and we feel unique. Yes, the rotation is simple, but the skill of it relies on watching 3 things at once (embers, procs, mechanics).
    The chaos bolt not being worth casting was a disgrace, I agree. But the new destro playstyle is just garbage. It's a glorified arcane mage with a bucket of gimicks thrown into the mix.
    I much preferred the way you had to keep Improved Soul Fire running, while keeping dots up and conflag on cd. It was a much more natural flow of damage dealing imo. Now it's *yaawwwnn...* -> chaosbolt -> *yaaaawnnn.. can I afk for a bit while building embers??* -> chaosbolt. The gameplay has never been less fluent imho and I absolutely hate it. I like the idea, but .. it just doesn't work for me. Too clunky.

    "Yes, the rotation is simple, but the skill of it relies on watching 3 things at once (embers, procs, mechanics)."
    So that's the same as in Cata, except then you had to watch for Conflag CD, Chaos Bolt CD (until mid DS anyway), Improved Soul Fire and Soulburn CD instead of embers. They replaced 3.5 things to watch with 1. As far as I remember we also did Bane of Agony and Corruption back then. The gimicks are fun to play with, I admit, ROFing for huge embers and spamming chaos bolts all fight, but as soon as you're on a single target rotation it feels so dull that I just wanna log off.
    Last edited by Filth the Warlock; 2013-05-03 at 03:36 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    I could not disagree more... in cata... chaos bolt, our signature spell, was OPTIONAL. It was considered neutral dps to use. I honestly felt like a fire mage. Now, chaos bolt is top 2 damage on all fights and we feel unique. Yes, the rotation is simple, but the skill of it relies on watching 3 things at once (embers, procs, mechanics).
    The deal is that destruction just doesn't feel like the destruction everyone liked. Everyone loved wotlk destruction, fast casts, big damage, very good in both PvE and PvP, what's not to like?
    In cataclysm we got that abomination called improved soul fire, a 3 second cast that gave us a small dps increase, that people just disliked because it just didn't fit with all our short casts. And what do we get now, a 3 second cast as our hardest hitting ability, hidden between an ember mechanic to make it look like something completely different from improved soul fire.

    Now to stay a bit OT

    Quote Originally Posted by Confined View Post
    Strictly PvP here:
    SB:Soulswap Ruined the spec, Not MG.
    Every Class could interrupt shadowbolt or drain life or whatever u used before just as MG. Its because the dot application is really easy that they had to make the dots less effective. The spec needs SB:SS on a 15sec cd and regular SS on a 30 and rebalance dot dmg and MG, Which will simply not happen in the middle of an expansion.
    I'd say it's really a combination of both. The problem with MG, unlike drain life or shadow bolt, is how much damage it brings. In cataclysm and before, you had most of your damage coming from dots, making Affliction really strong in multi-dotting. Having your drain life or shadow bolt interrupted wasn't fun, but you didn't suddenly lose 50% of your damage whenever it happened. The deal with MG is that you suddenly do 200% more damage when you channel MG on a target with dots. Getting interrupted means you pretty much lose all of your damage. You can compare not channeling MG to a warrior getting disarmed, he'll still be dealing some damage from his bleeds but that's it.

    Affliction right now is in such a state that it will either require a complete revamp or some incredible PvP only changes to make the spec good for PvP as it's currently nearly impossible to make any changes to affliction without having it make an impact on PvP.

  12. #12
    Affliction feels more like a dot class then ever before.

    I have some objections towards affliction and its performance (target switching, killing adds and anything else that forces affliction to start from zero again).

    But no mater how you look at it affliction damage is almost completely damage over time now, with the exception of MG and haunt (and they boost dot dmg anyway) affliction is a a true damage over time dealer unlike pre MoP time.

    And you know affliction today is much better then affliction WOTLK with its 6 dots. Any spec witch requires a addon (dot-timer) to play needs to be changed because its kind of stupid to be forced to use a addon just to play your spec.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    And you know affliction today is much better then affliction WOTLK with its 6 dots. Any spec witch requires a addon (dot-timer) to play needs to be changed because its kind of stupid to be forced to use a addon just to play your spec.
    You mean to say you can play affliction now without addons?????... Affliction has never EVER _!EVER!_ been more addon dependant than it is now. AffDots saves lives! The WOTLK dot system was a piece of cake to manage, with or without addons. The way snapshotting functions now makes it impossibly complex to manage without an addon to keep track of current vs applied dot strengths at the very least. You can (can) keep track of your temporary buffs and cds without changing the default UI by looking all over the screen at the same time (warning: incredibly tough on your head and neck muscles if your screen is larger than 10 inches).
    Last edited by Filth the Warlock; 2013-05-03 at 04:32 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    The deal is that destruction just doesn't feel like the destruction everyone liked. Everyone loved wotlk destruction, fast casts, big damage, very good in both PvE and PvP, what's not to like?
    This. And tbh, I liked the addition of improved Soul Fire in cata, because it added more complexity into the spec and more things to watch, therefore it was harder to play. BUT as MoP came, it totally destroyed the spec and as some already said, made it too boring to play.

    It's just a shame that destro and demo out DPS's Affliction in almost every encounter at the moment(atleast with my gear), because Affliction would be so much more fun to play PvE with, than the other two specs.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    You mean to say you can play affliction now without addons?????... Affliction has never EVER _!EVER!_ been more addon dependant than it is now. AffDots saves lives! The WOTLK dot system was a piece of cake to manage, with or without addons. The way snapshotting functions now makes it impossibly complex to manage without an addon to keep track of current vs applied dot strengths at the very least. You can (can) keep track of your temporary buffs and cds without changing the default UI by looking all over the screen at the same time (warning: incredibly tough on your head and neck muscles if your screen is larger than 10 inches).
    What addon do you have to use now then? The addon that tracks the power of your dots....

    If you honestly thing that is a hard thing then you probably didn't play in TBC and early WOTLK as a affliction warlock. Just so you know but making sure that immolate, CoA, Corr, UA and SL are up and refreshed just when they are about to expire is much harder then a silly thing as to track which buff you have.

    To me it was much easier to forget SL or CoA since both of them had a long duration then to keep up Immolate and UA while making sure you pressed your SB button couple of times during casting. Also since the standard UI has a horrible debuff icons (small, your own doesn't stand out) it wouldn't be weird if you missed a spell.

    Another thing that added useless complexity to the game was the debuff limit (think they removed it mid WOTLK), depending on your raid you could lose a few of your debuffs and try to notice that without a add-on.

    And not sure what trinkets you have but you don't really need to keep track of every buff you have, just the strong one. You should exclude the cloack enchant and weapon enchant from any decision you make since both of them are kind of weak compared to trinket procs. If you have a use trinket then you just need to macro your trinket (and any other use effect) to your spells (I macro my UA and Soulburn) and be done with it.

    Honestly if you want to make sure you do as much damage as possible then I would rather suggest you make sure you track DBM timers instead so you can use your cooldowns when its appropriate.

    I've played affliction for the whole of tier TBC (tier 4 and 5), I've played affliction in Naxx (decided to go to destro since it was better in my opinion in hardmodes), and cata (didn't really raid but stayed affliction for heroics). Affliction right now feels less awkward and it doesn't take 1 min to build up , you don't have to use life tap every 10-20 secs and you don't have to worry about recasting to early.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    Affliction in PVE was improved incredibly. It was ruined in PVP.
    Destruction in PVE was ruined imo. It was fixed in PVP.
    Demonology was never my favourite in any environment and never will be. The concept just isn't my thing.
    Yeah Filth I agree with your demo/affliciton analysis. I wanted to love Demo so badly, but I hate the stance dance for dot management/shadowflame application.

    I disagree with your comment on Destro and PVE however. I love havoc and swimming in embers and the Shadowburn ember return mechanic.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    What addon do you have to use now then? The addon that tracks the power of your dots....

    If you honestly thing that is a hard thing then you probably didn't play in TBC and early WOTLK as a affliction warlock. Just so you know but making sure that immolate, CoA, Corr, UA and SL are up and refreshed just when they are about to expire is much harder then a silly thing as to track which buff you have.

    To me it was much easier to forget SL or CoA since both of them had a long duration then to keep up Immolate and UA while making sure you pressed your SB button couple of times during casting. Also since the standard UI has a horrible debuff icons (small, your own doesn't stand out) it wouldn't be weird if you missed a spell.

    Another thing that added useless complexity to the game was the debuff limit (think they removed it mid WOTLK), depending on your raid you could lose a few of your debuffs and try to notice that without a add-on.

    And not sure what trinkets you have but you don't really need to keep track of every buff you have, just the strong one. You should exclude the cloack enchant and weapon enchant from any decision you make since both of them are kind of weak compared to trinket procs. If you have a use trinket then you just need to macro your trinket (and any other use effect) to your spells (I macro my UA and Soulburn) and be done with it.

    Honestly if you want to make sure you do as much damage as possible then I would rather suggest you make sure you track DBM timers instead so you can use your cooldowns when its appropriate.

    I've played affliction for the whole of tier TBC (tier 4 and 5), I've played affliction in Naxx (decided to go to destro since it was better in my opinion in hardmodes), and cata (didn't really raid but stayed affliction for heroics). Affliction right now feels less awkward and it doesn't take 1 min to build up , you don't have to use life tap every 10-20 secs and you don't have to worry about recasting to early.
    Just wow...

    I'll back off, I guess. You're completely out in the middle of nowhere on all accounts, none of the information is remotely reasonable to me. You _??SERIOUSLY??_ find it hard to keep dots rolling on the target, but you do not find it remotely complicated to remember what procs and their sizes you had when you first applied the dots on a given target and executing the mathematic calculations as to whether your stats are now stronger than they were when you applied them, considering statweights and breakpoints in the mix?.. I guess I'll back off, cause man you nailed it. Playing affliction in TBC was serious business, I bet, that must've been like 2% of the raiding warlocks after all, seeing as spamming shadowbolts was _VASTLY_ superior .. Yeah. Saccin' dem Succubuses for the dips.

    wow just... wot?

    If you're going to exclude jade spirit from your playstyle, why not go with the static intellect enchant from WOTLK eh? The easy answer is that you don't exclude Jade Spirit or the tailoring cloak enchant.. or anything for that matter. The "strong procs" have a relatively low proc rate compared to Jade Spirit.

    No. Affliction has never been more addon-dependant than it is now. Ever. And I hope it never will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scathbais View Post
    Yeah Filth I agree with your demo/affliciton analysis. I wanted to love Demo so badly, but I hate the stance dance for dot management/shadowflame application.

    I disagree with your comment on Destro and PVE however. I love havoc and swimming in embers and the Shadowburn ember return mechanic.
    I don't dislike all of destro, I quite enjoy swimming in embers and having sac + mastery stacked. But from a single target fight point of view, it's horrible imo.
    Last edited by Filth the Warlock; 2013-05-03 at 08:20 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    Just wow...


    I don't dislike all of destro, I quite enjoy swimming in embers and having sac + mastery stacked. But from a single target fight point of view, it's horrible imo.
    if you have mastery stacked you are doing it wrong. Pretty sure for t15 the people that know what they are talking about have either

    haste>crit>mastery or haste=crit>mastery (i think balance between haste and crit is more viable over pure haste)
    some also suggest crit>haste>mastery (more viable for burst less for sustained)

    with improved pets. All I'm sorry but why would you think that the tier that is centered around ember generation and having them be more efficient during DS would not have stats that benefit that (aka haste and crit) and stick to old t14 mastery+sac build?

    MoP didn't ruin affliction...i changed the play style of it...just like it did for demo and destro. Personally I play Demo and Destro partially because Demo is by far the superior spec imo (as well i find it most fun) and destro for burst. Yes affliction is the weakest of the three specs but it doesn't mean a good affliction lock would not be ahead over other two if they are average. On paper vx reality are different things. Play the spec you like and are good at and you will see numbers.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post
    Just wow...

    I'll back off, I guess. You're completely out in the middle of nowhere on all accounts, none of the information is remotely reasonable to me. You _??SERIOUSLY??_ find it hard to keep dots rolling on the target, but you do not find it remotely complicated to remember what procs and their sizes you had when you first applied the dots on a given target and executing the mathematic calculations as to whether your stats are now stronger than they were when you applied them, considering statweights and breakpoints in the mix?.. I guess I'll back off, cause man you nailed it. Playing affliction in TBC was serious business, I bet, that must've been like 2% of the raiding warlocks after all, seeing as spamming shadowbolts was _VASTLY_ superior .. Yeah. Saccin' dem Succubuses for the dips.

    wow just... wot?

    If you're going to exclude jade spirit from your playstyle, why not go with the static intellect enchant from WOTLK eh? The easy answer is that you don't exclude Jade Spirit or the tailoring cloak enchant.. or anything for that matter. The "strong procs" have a relatively low proc rate compared to Jade Spirit.

    No. Affliction has never been more addon-dependant than it is now. Ever. And I hope it never will be.



    I don't dislike all of destro, I quite enjoy swimming in embers and having sac + mastery stacked. But from a single target fight point of view, it's horrible imo.
    Your entire post just shows your lack of true understanding of the warlock class back then and in some ways now.

    Playing affliction in TBC was serious business, I bet, that must've been like 2% of the raiding warlocks after all, seeing as spamming shadowbolts was _VASTLY_ superior
    First you didn't just spec into destruction and just magically do better then affliction, you actually needed some good gear otherwise you would just reduce raid damage (not having improved Curse of Shadows and Elements and not contributing to keeping the debuff up). To further add to my point the entire spec destro spec was build around critting at least every 4 SB, by critting every 4 SB you made sure you kept your improved SB debuff up and not saccing your demon. You needed around 20% crit (you had 25% including talents) which you could reliable achieve at tier 6 gear. Back then their where few other locks in my guild that would lower my dps (by allot more then their own personal gain) since they would eat away my precious Shadow Bolt debuff while they themselves didn't really contribute (they had allot less crit). If you played warlocks back then you're probably part of the group that specced destro while not really having the gear which as a result reduced the overall raid damage (don't forget you also lowered shadow priest damage and any class that was in the group with the priest)...so shame on you!!!

    find it hard to keep dots rolling on the target, but you do not find it remotely complicated to remember what procs and their sizes you had when you first applied the dots on a given target and executing the mathematic calculations as to whether your stats are now stronger than they were when you applied them, considering statweights and breakpoints in the mix?..
    So your going to take things out of context, add some BS and then make fun of me to get your point across?

    First where did I even write that I find keeping all of my dots on target hard? What I did say that it was easy to miss a dot, and if you ever raided pass kara then you should know that it easy to miss a dot if you didn't use dot-timer back then (or any add-on that made sure your dots stood out). A simple boss like Void Reaver is a excellent example, the only thing you needed to do was avoid his attacks as range. But moving all the time and avoiding shit is precisely the reason why it;s easy to miss a dot (or are you one of those people that needed to be rezzed all the time??)

    If you're going to exclude jade spirit from your playstyle, why not go with the static intellect enchant from WOTLK eh? The easy answer is that you don't exclude Jade Spirit or the tailoring cloak enchant.. or anything for that matter. The "strong procs" have a relatively low proc rate compared to Jade Spirit.
    Not knowing the prioritise shows exactly why you lack the basic understanding of the warlock class (or caster in general). I personally have the LFR breath of hydra trinket, which gives me 6k spellpower (or something like that) at 5.1 I had the shieldwall trinket which gave me close to 4k spellpower (1 min cd).......Jade spirit is 1650 spellpower. So why the F should I waist my precious resources on the jade spirit enchant while I have/had much stronger procs????? And since ToT both the weapon enchant as the cloak enchant have lost allot in relative strength (6000+ vs 1650) making them less of a priority. Ignoring something relatively weak as jade spirit won't really hurt you in the end but focussing on that strong Hydra buff (20 sec of 6k is kind of awsome you know).

    Btw if you can't be civilized to others don't even bother coming to the forums.

  20. #20
    From a PvE standpoint, MoP is the first time since... BC... that I've enjoyed playing affliction.

    Granted, this thread is obviously about PvP. I love how the second post completely ruined your "interruptable!" argument. I also like how you bitched and bitched about balance adjustments. In fact, I love seeing PvP bitching threads in general because you can almost always be assured that the OP is going to complain about stuff that is either completely irrelevant or indicative of the OP's inability to PvP in the first place. Either way, it's usually a good laugh.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-03 at 09:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dawawe View Post
    Anyone remember at the start of cata when blizz said they didnt want Affliction locks to use drain life filler becaese its mad us feel like Spriests? Then they turn around and give us a channeled filler.
    A channeled filler that causes our DoTs to tick. Just because a spell is channeled does not mean it is anything like Spriests.

    Furthermore, I don't remember them saying that at all. I do remember them not wanting us to use Drain Life, but I don't recall them comparing us to Shadow Priests. The more obvious reason is because it's constant, free healing with no damage penalty.

    Either way, MG is nothing like that. MG fills a new niche that I've never seen in WoW before.

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