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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    For any noobs reading this thread be very careful about using CS for holy power. It is a useful tactic but gear and fight dependant. Even in my gear 509 with 11k spirit or so its usually an awful idea. With more spirit and after I drop the t14 4p, it'll be considerably more useful.
    I would think with more spirit it becomes less and less useful, not more and more useful. Basically I really, really do not see the point to using CS at all except maybe during run phases. Possibilities:

    Zor'lok attenuation phase: You had a lot of spare mana and you weren't really able to cast so you can CS him. Problem: It's not like you really needed the HP to begin with (even when it was current).

    Durumu maze phase: You aren't really able to cast so you can CS him while running + HS. Problem: Poor use of mana versus just casting for the HP anyway, and this is a (possibly) mana-intense fight especially when learning.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2013-05-14 at 06:03 AM.

  2. #22
    The point of using CS for holy power is not to use it on CD but to use it when you need it so I dont see why any "noobs" should be careful about using CS. If you did HR + HS for daybreak your HS is going to be on a 3 sec cd atleast. You are now on 2 holy power and have the option to wait 3-5 seconds before you can gain another cheap holy power, you have the option to cast a HR (or DL/FoL) and spend arround 20k mana and the last option, use a CS.

    Crusader Strike should not be used on cooldown, but it is a cheap way to get holy power and the only way in a lot of situations unless you want to spend more mana to get a holy power from HR/DL/FoL.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    The point of using CS for holy power is not to use it on CD but to use it when you need it so I dont see why any "noobs" should be careful about using CS.
    Its a phenominal waste of mana if you don't do it right. A well-placed holy light is FAR more efficient than CS.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 04:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    I would think with more spirit it becomes less and less useful, not more and more useful. Basically I really, really do not see the point to using CS at all except maybe during run phases.
    You should mostly only do it (if at all) in fights where there are short lulls followed by significant spikes, BUT the fight requires extreme overall mana efficiency. (IMO no fight like this exists this tier) You do have a point about spirit - once you have enough, you might as well just HR for HP..

    That's why I feel like its really important to note that less-experienced paladins should NOT be using CS unless they know exactly what they're doing.

  4. #24
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    20k mana gets you a ~100k heal, ~30k IH shield, and 1 HP. 9k mana gets you an 86% chance at 1 HP and shit for anything else.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    20k mana gets you a ~100k heal, ~30k IH shield, and 1 HP. 9k mana gets you an 86% chance at 1 HP and shit for anything else.
    Whats the point if that 100k heal is overhealing (im asuming you are talking about HR here because no single target heal does 100k). With the 100k heal as you put it you also spend a second extra casting the heal, a second that you could have spend on meleeing the boss and getting a extra SoI proc. CS costs almost exactly 9k mana per HP and not 9k mana for 86% chance as you also have a chance to proc SoI with CS.

    As Dennisdkramer put it, its actually one of the most advanced abilities for holy paladins and if you dont know what you are doing you probably shouldnt be doing it but its still better than casting a heal in a lot of situations.
    Last edited by Pacer; 2013-05-15 at 10:02 AM.

  6. #26
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer View Post
    Whats the point if that 100k heal is overhealing (im asuming you are talking about HR here because no single target heal does 100k). With the 100k heal as you put it you also spend a second extra casting the heal, a second that you could have spend on meleeing the boss and getting a extra SoI proc. CS costs almost exactly 9k mana per HP and not 9k mana for 86% chance as you also have a chance to proc SoI with CS.

    As Dennisdkramer put it, its actually one of the most advanced abilities for holy paladins and if you dont know what you are doing you probably shouldnt be doing it but its still better than casting a heal in a lot of situations.
    Buffed divine light is definitely close to 100k. Unbuffed it was healing for 90k and critting for 170-180k and I have not even broke 130 ilvl.

  7. #27
    I should have specified that I ment counting overhealing. Yes Divine Light does between 90 and 110k healing depending on your gear and if you use cds etc but it does massive amounts of overhealing. Last week my DL did over 50% overheal and the week before that 44% overheal clearing 11/13 hc and 9/13 hc respectively. My average DL crit heal is arround 90k (not counting overhealing).

    Besides if voidspark is talking about single target heals who cost 20k mana, does 100k healing, 30k mastery shields and gives a holy power those single target heals would also have to be used on the beacon target which is sub optimal too.

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    * also looking at random top heal logs from WOL, most top-ranking parses see little to no CS usage. CS makes up ~3-4% at most (usually, 0%) of total HP generated. Where it is used seems to be on non-intensive fights where the HP was not actually needed except for inflating meters.

    Hence my belief that the ability is for the most part useless.

  9. #29
    If you look at Method's holy pallies they cs a LOT, like an absurd amount compared to most other paladins. It's a playstyle like anything else and they make it work. I'm not as good as I wish I was at sneaking a few in here and there but it's not useless, just sort of situational.

    I pulled up Method's logs from this past week to double check myself and CS was 7% of Aladya's hp generation for the night but without digging around too much (because I'm lazy) that's going to be higher on fights where it's easy like Horridon, Tortos, Durumu and non existent to minimal on other fights.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...l69/details/1/

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyrotten View Post
    If you look at Method's holy pallies they cs a LOT, like an absurd amount compared to most other paladins. It's a playstyle like anything else and they make it work. I'm not as good as I wish I was at sneaking a few in here and there but it's not useless, just sort of situational.

    I pulled up Method's logs from this past week to double check myself and CS was 7% of Aladya's hp generation for the night but without digging around too much (because I'm lazy) that's going to be higher on fights where it's easy like Horridon, Tortos, Durumu and non existent to minimal on other fights.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...l69/details/1/
    I can't melee as much as I'd want to due to spawning Ranged Only Abilities in melee. For example I'm not even allowed to melee on Megaera anymore due to getting Ice Torrent twice in a row in melee once. Don't even start me on ranged and being anywhere near Primordius, that's tabu in Method since PTR.

    Edit: I think meleing is a REQUIRED part of Paladins in order for our regen to be anywhere near sustainable and for our Holy Power generation. Silly that we're targetable by Thunderstruck and the likes.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    * also looking at random top heal logs from WOL, most top-ranking parses see little to no CS usage. CS makes up ~3-4% at most (usually, 0%) of total HP generated. Where it is used seems to be on non-intensive fights where the HP was not actually needed except for inflating meters.

    Hence my belief that the ability is for the most part useless.
    With all due respect to the paladins who hold rank 1s, just because they did more healing than everyone else does not mean its the best way of healing. If you are in a raid group where all healers are equally skilled and you use 6 healers on all boss fights (the average raid setup) you are not going to get any good ranks at all. Lots of people like Kmy and Kelius, while im sure are really skilled also gets fed with mana tides, innervates, mana hymns and use weird ass raid setups (for example immersion used 3 priests when kelius got rank 1 DA hc) and of course raid dps also has a huge factor.

    You also have to keep in mind when I say using CS is better I dont mean its a 10% healing increase, if you do it perfectly you might see a 2% increase in healing. The best bosses to use CS on are Tortos, Durumu and Dark Animus, on some other bosses its still worth it and on some (ra den for example) its completely useless (atleast in phase 2). Dark Animus is by far the best CS boss in the game and on this boss you should almost use it on CD as HR is sort of lack luster with everyone being "spread" for anima font.

  12. #32
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    I try to quick analyze how well the fight is going, how much EF is ticking, what's coming up, and who I am healing with.
    Melee happens when I feel the other healers are keeping things stable really, otherwise I'd rather spend time keeping up illuminated healing the quick and easy way.

    CS for me right now is still on the precarious side of being not worth it if stuff goes south, mana wise. It's only really a 'hps pad' for when we're doing a fight flawlessly and I have more Holy Power to spend, but progressing as I still am right now, it's safer to just melee for a bit of extra mana and nothing more.
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
    Yeah, it's always WAR WAR WAR untill..BY ALL THAT IS HOLY DO YOU SEE THAT ENEMY OVER THERE?? GLORIOUS LOOT!!!!!

  13. #33
    Simple answer, whenever you can.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonic View Post
    Simple answer, whenever you can.
    The simple answer: When right-clicking the boss doesn't otherwise jeopardize the raid's health or violate the raid leader's strategy.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    Edit: I think meleing is a REQUIRED part of Paladins in order for our regen to be anywhere near sustainable and for our Holy Power generation. Silly that we're targetable by Thunderstruck and the likes.
    I don't agree.

    Meleeing for mana or CS HP has never been mandatory. Blizzard has positioned it as a bonus but not a necessity.

    Frankly, they should just ditch it entirely. Being in melee is problematic for any encounter with 'target range' abilities, as well as any encounters with lots of boss movement or short range boss AoEs that require movement.

    They idea of a way of eeking out a bit of extra HP or mana for good play is a good idea. They just need to tie it to something that isn't melee. Generally good Holy Paladin play is tied to good Holy Shock use. Maybe attaching some form of regen to this as the top players will probably throw out more HS per fight than your average player. But basically, anything other than having to sit in melee.

  16. #36
    I'm in awe at some of the ignorance in this thread regarding melee'ing. YOU GET FREE MANA FOR RIGHT CLICKING THE BOSS AND STANDING IN MELEE INBETWEEN CASTS. Yes it is more work and requires more attention to be good at, but if you do it right and get used to it it's pathetically easy. If you don't melee as a holy paladin you are playing inefficiently. Bottom line. CS is a free holy power, from behind the boss it's a great chance at landing the hit. I am just in awe at the misinformation spread in this particular thread.
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  17. #37
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yau View Post
    I'm in awe at some of the ignorance in this thread regarding melee'ing. YOU GET FREE MANA FOR RIGHT CLICKING THE BOSS AND STANDING IN MELEE INBETWEEN CASTS. Yes it is more work and requires more attention to be good at, but if you do it right and get used to it it's pathetically easy. If you don't melee as a holy paladin you are playing inefficiently. Bottom line. CS is a free holy power, from behind the boss it's a great chance at landing the hit. I am just in awe at the misinformation spread in this particular thread.
    Is this really necessary? Try reading the thread. No one said not to melee. People are saying to melee when you can. On most fights being in melee can wipe the raid. If you wipe the raid trying to autoattack for mana, you are failing at mechanics and are a detriment to your raid.
    Last edited by Freia; 2013-05-17 at 08:19 PM.

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