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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Why have mob weapons and armor drops?

    Arenanet went out of their way to have a pretty involved crafting system that allows people to make pretty much any sort of gear in the game. Making that gear uses resources that players can gather out in the wild, and they even have a pretty robust market system you can access from anywhere to buy as sell on.


    Yes they completely sabotage the whole thing by having gear drop off mobs.

    There's already karma vendors, and white gear, but they destroy their whole economy by just handing out the blues and greens, screw you crafters. Hence, nobody can really be surprised that you lose money by converting materials in to finished items, just like the real world economy would be if cars or other products materialized for free for anyone who wanted one.

    All they have to do is stop that one thing and they'd have a really good and interesting economy going, but they insist on sabotaging the whole thing.
    Still bitter.

  2. #2
    I really preferred the loot system in GW1: mobs dropped weapons (but you could still get weapons, after a few expansions, when you completed the final mission), and dropped armor that they wore (for salvage purposes, ideally for runes), and armor was obtained by gathering mats (i.e., crafting).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  3. #3
    Luck.

    That's why gear is there instead of currency only. Also why gear converts to currency by chance.

    Having the possibly of something worthwhile drop for no express cost other than the kill is a device to lend excitement to looting. It's the exact same system as Diablo. Guild Wars 1 used it as well to a lesser degree.

    These are all psychological tricks to invest the player in the actions in game in a manner that is compulsive.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Luck.

    That's why gear is there instead of currency only. Also why gear converts to currency by chance.

    Having the possibly of something worthwhile drop for no express cost other than the kill is a device to lend excitement to looting. It's the exact same system as Diablo. Guild Wars 1 used it as well to a lesser degree.

    These are all psychological tricks to invest the player in the actions in game in a manner that is compulsive.
    Do you think that's worth invalidating all the crafting system except as another leveling tool if you're not making the level 400 gear? There's a million other rare things they could have mobs drop, including rare mats. Same affect, cake and eat it.
    Still bitter.

  5. #5
    But Fencers, you've played GW1, you know the loot system they used there. There were exciting drops (golds, greens, gemstones, other rare crafting mats). I don't get why they moved away from that system. Of course, part of why I loved that system is that it was unique, and made sense (since when do mobs carry gear that'll fit your character perfectly?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  6. #6
    There are exciting drops in GW2 as well. People can/do get precursors or rare materials from time to time.

    There has to be a lot junk to lend an "oh wow!" to the good stuff. In the end most of that junk breaks down to a monetary value anyway.

    Players are essentially only collecting gold in GW2. In one from or another, it is the only pursuit of the game. How they mask or move that around by having players chase Fancy Von Snuffles the Cat or Bifrost is the trick of the tail.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Plenty of profit to be made from crafting.

    But you must recognize that 3 mil+ people just leveled their crafts and with a global Trading Post, the best profits will be made from the rarer recipes rather than the commonly known ones. Also, recipes with an xp component such as dungeon tokens or skill points generally have a larger profit margin (so play is rewarded).

    And remember - armor, weapons and mats don't just drop from mobs ;-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi_7YYs1tz4
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Plenty of profit to be made from crafting.

    But you must recognize that 3 mil+ people just leveled their crafts and with a global Trading Post, the best profits will be made from the rarer recipes rather than the commonly known ones. Also, recipes with an xp component such as dungeon tokens or skill points generally have a larger profit margin (so play is rewarded).

    And remember - armor, weapons and mats don't just drop from mobs ;-)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi_7YYs1tz4
    It doesn't have to be this way though, it could be very easy for them to make crafting the primary way people get items, and all of a sudden you can claim all sorts of really advertising things like "player driven economy! sandboxy!" etc.
    Still bitter.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    I salvage 90% of the rare drops I get. Would it make any difference if the mob was dropping mats only vs. the armor I salvage into mats?

    With this many people with the same exact recipes, there is no opportunity to corner a market. Doesn't matter where or in what form the mats drop.

    They can only make so many rare recipes when dealing with such a large market. What ends up happening is the truly rare rare mats (like lodestones) drive value.
    Last edited by Karizee; 2013-05-04 at 08:14 AM.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  10. #10
    But you must recognize that 3 mil+ people just leveled their crafts and with a global Trading Post
    Erm. Somewhat dubious at best.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    I salvage 90% of the rare drops I get. Would it make any difference if the mob was dropping mats only vs. the armor I salvage into mats?

    With this many people with the same exact recipes, there is no opportunity to corner a market. Doesn't matter where or in what form the mats drop.

    They can only make so many rare recipes when dealing with such a large market. What ends up happening is the truly rare rare mats (like lodestones) drive value.
    Yeah because 10% you put on your body and don't buy. You'll never corner this big of a market, but it does make the price come up. And who knows, on basic stuff you may still lose money, but it will bring up prices on gear overall, and it does put all the production line in the hands of players which is just cooler in an mmo world.

    Really there's lots of stuff they could do to isolate specializations more and more but with a market across all servers, it's never going to narrow down your competition THAT much, but if it's the gear people use for leveling, it will at least bring up demand quite a lot. Since you can literally get better stuff handed to you just by leveling, right now the demand is next to zero for gear.
    Last edited by Rukh; 2013-05-04 at 02:03 PM.
    Still bitter.

  12. #12
    Brewmaster Lazuli's Avatar
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    I don't believe there has to be a ton of trash to validate the 'oh wow awesome rare loot' factor, even Diablo and GW1 had 10x more favoring loot system than GW2 does. GW2 is like, 90% trash items, 8% rare materials, if that, and 1% pre-cursor and the chances of one of those dropping must be equal to your chances of winning the lottery IRL. This leads to 99% mundane, bullshit drops that make me bored of the game quite fast.

    I'd throw in some examples of how D2 and GW1 loot system was 10x more rewarding but I don't think it necessary.

    GW2 loot is SO shitty, ANet had to start implementing guarantee'd rare drops on the open world chest rewards and limit them 1 per day. GW2 is the ultimate omega grind for that pre-cursor that will never drop, I grinded in this game for months, did dragon events every day on reset, I have around 150g and I could spend that almost instantly on the TP for mats to throw into the mystic toilet shit hole, and get almost nothing back in the hopes that I get a pre-cursor.

    Idk how ANYONE can enjoy a loot system like this... where is the return? And when you finally get it, is all the time and money you wasted really worth it? Literally half my play time is selling crap, I'd fully expect GW2 to give me a mercantile trait line like in elder scrolls since obviously I'm a fucking master merchant. I've leveled a character to 80 and found no rare, and the first months of the game I never saw one exotic until the halloween jumping puzzle chest gave me a useless pair of condition boots (lol?) which I couldn't even salvage or sell so I simply destroyed them.

    That JP was a bitch too, you can imagine my disappointment when I got those shitty boots. I wasn't even aware at the time that speed traits/signets were bugged and working and I still did it without any... took me like an hour of failing. And I got.... those goddamn useless boots...

    Never felt so unrewarded in a game. I loooooooooathe the loot system.
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.

    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Ah, the power of perception. On one hand one player says the game drops too much gear to make any money off crafting and another player says it doesn't drop enough


    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    GW2 loot is SO shitty, ANet had to start implementing guarantee'd rare drops on the open world chest rewards and limit them 1 per day.

    That's one guaranteed rare per world boss per day. There's 20+ events that drop a guaranteed rare. Granted, you don't see many exotics dropping but I generally get one oh, once every 2 weeks or so. Got an Usoku's Needle yesterday which sold for 7g.

    Compare that to games where you are only allowed one shot at the boss per week with no guarantee of a drop.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Ah, the power of perception. On one hand one player says the game drops too much gear to make any money off crafting and another player says it doesn't drop enough



    That's one guaranteed rare per world boss per day. There's 20+ events that drop a guaranteed rare. Granted, you don't see many exotics dropping but I generally get one oh, once every 2 weeks or so. Got an Usoku's Needle yesterday which sold for 7g.

    Compare that to games where you are only allowed one shot at the boss per week with no guarantee of a drop.

    um... you see how our beliefs are not contradictory don't you? You could replace his argument with rare materials instead of rare gear and he'd be making the same argument, you do see that don't you?

    I'm talking about normal gear drops that people use for leveling would be much nicer made by players. He's talking about the chances of getting rare drops at high levels. If you did something like make greens actually drop less, suddenly they would be rare and rewarding drops. Blues and greens drop so often people don't think of greens as lucky drops anyways.

    And yesh to Lazuli, precursors are very rare, but really they should be. Legendaries should be rare. But it's not hard to get exotics really. None of that's what I'm talking about but I can understand frustration on that, though with the karma system and crafting system, exotics aren't all that hard to get...
    Still bitter.

  15. #15
    About the precursors...
    I'm a member of the famous 75% club, and i'm certain that i'll NEVER
    see Dusk in my inventory :-(

    So yeah, in regard to precursors that looks yster SUCKS otherwise it's fine really.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    um... you see how our beliefs are not contradictory don't you? You could replace his argument with rare materials instead of rare gear and he'd be making the same argument, you do see that don't you?

    I'm talking about normal gear drops that people use for leveling would be much nicer made by players. He's talking about the chances of getting rare drops at high levels. If you did something like make greens actually drop less, suddenly they would be rare and rewarding drops. Blues and greens drop so often people don't think of greens as lucky drops anyways.

    And yesh to Lazuli, precursors are very rare, but really they should be. Legendaries should be rare. But it's not hard to get exotics really. None of that's what I'm talking about but I can understand frustration on that, though with the karma system and crafting system, exotics aren't all that hard to get...

    Gear drops = Mats
    There are very few rare recipes due to the amount of players in a global market.
    Rarity is determined by mat rarity or in the case of some skins, drop rarity.
    Low levels pass quickly and perfection of stats is not important at these levels.


    It sounds like you are trying to make the game grindy for low level players which kinda goes against their philosophy.
    Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air... I know them all.
    ~Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazuli View Post
    I grinded in this game for months, did dragon events every day on reset, I have around 150g and I could spend that almost instantly on the TP for mats to throw into the mystic toilet shit hole, and get almost nothing back in the hopes that I get a pre-cursor.
    It depends what you do in game. For example, it's very easy to get 3g per day from the 8 predictable chest events just by selling the rares. That's 90g per month on rares and nothing else. If you sell all of your drops (and don't bank anything) then you would get a lot more. Stick everything in the mystic forge and you could end up with 3 pre-cursors or nothing. I am not an RNG fan in general so I don't like the mystic forge. I have started using it lately on rare weapons and I normally get an exotic 1 out of every 5 times but it's risky at best so I tend to stay away.

    The point is that getting gold to buy a precursor is probably the safest way to do it and there is no reason to spend any gold in GW2 so it should be easy to save enough. If I was really desperate to get one I would do the following:

    1) Convert all Karma to gold through boxes (take Karma boosts when doing this) - My last big conversion netted me about 22g for 400k odd of Karma.
    2) Convert skill points to gold through mystic weapons.
    3) Do the chest events and sell rares on the TP. Don't salvage them or if you do salvage, only do it for items that sell for less than 20g. Salvage with a master kit. Then sell the Globs.
    4) Sell everything that drops either to vendors or on the TP. Including all of the mats that you get.
    5) Use the gold you have to do some flipping on the TP. Pick a few exotics and do it with those.
    6) Convert Laurels to gold through the unidentified inks.

    Do this and you would probably get 200g+ per month just by doing the 8 chest events (1 - 2 hours depending on luck) and the dailies. It would take 2-3 months to get enough gold to buy a precursor. That's not really a lot of grind.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizee View Post
    Gear drops = Mats
    There are very few rare recipes due to the amount of players in a global market.
    Rarity is determined by mat rarity or in the case of some skins, drop rarity.
    Low levels pass quickly and perfection of stats is not important at these levels.


    It sounds like you are trying to make the game grindy for low level players which kinda goes against their philosophy.
    No gear drops do NOT equal mats. Gear drops are whole finished pieces.

    It's not grindy for low levels. Quite the opposite. They can both craft and actually make money crafting instead of losing money crafting like now, and wear whites or crafted blues while people leveling their 4th character with gold in the bank buys the greens and gives them some pocket change. The whole point is making it worth crafting low level stuff.
    Still bitter.

  19. #19
    Warchief Maarius's Avatar
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    I didn't get a single exotic drop since release of the game... I hate such bad rng!! It was easier to get a rare dungeon mount in WoW than this...

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral Rhywolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    I didn't get a single exotic drop since release of the game... I hate such bad rng!! It was easier to get a rare dungeon mount in WoW than this...
    Really? O_o

    Best 'drops', if you can call them that, was when I completed the high level zones, especially Orr. I think I got one exotic Chestpiece after that from Dragon encounters, not sure if it was even Level 80.

    On topic: If crafting was the only way to get the best gear, everyone would be a mastercrafter. It always works the same way in games: Your profit is only a small percentage above the costs of the material. Some crafted items are more profitable than others, especially receipes that could only be collected at special events.
    One thing you might never get back is the cost of leveling up a crafting discipline.

    The main problem is that there is not enough diversity in a game with limited developer time for having a profitable crafting system. Maybe a kind of user-created-content system could be the key to profitable crafting. Invent a cool armor or weapon skin, have a preview for it in the Trading Post, let other players buy the skin from you and craft the stuff. Alternatively, they could add gem-expensive skins for crafters, those who buy it will make their profit.

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