"All you need for dungeons is Mesmers, Guardian, and DPS", What does Guardian do?

[Meledelion]

You quoted everything. Please quote the sentences that I actually do what you claim I did.

"Most"
yea mate don't quote me if you're gonna come up with this sort of nonsense. If you're not relating it to me please kindly piss off.

[Deleted]

You quoted everything. Please quote the sentences that I actually do what you claim I did.

LoL, "everything" which amounts to 4 lines of text, that you apparently can't find your attempt to correct me, nor the sentence starting with a lowercase letter...

"Most"
yea mate don't quote me if you're gonna come up with this sort of nonsense. If you're not relating it to me please kindly piss off.

If you are only concerned with what relates to you then why reply in the first place as my original comment was not about you specifically, nor in reply to you, if you find running the same dungeon over and over again 2 mins faster "fun", fine, then my original quote need not apply to you, but guess what it applies to many people who openly state they are bored to death of running CoF in this case over and over again hence their desire for efficiency.

As for the last bit of your post, I doubt that fits the forum rules.

[Meledelion]

LoL, "everything" which amounts to 4 lines of text, that you apparently can't find your attempt to correct me, nor the sentence starting with a lowercase letter...

If you are only concerned with what relates to you then why reply in the first place as my original comment was not about you specifically, nor in reply to you, if you find running the same dungeon over and over again 2 mins faster "fun", fine, then my original quote need not apply to you, but guess what it applies to many people who openly state they are bored to death of running CoF in this case over and over again hence their desire for efficiency.

As for the last bit of your post, perhaps you should follow your own advice.

Just quote the part already... I'm curious.

Don't quote me if it's not in response to me...

[Deleted]

Just quote the part already... I'm curious.

Don't quote me if it's not in response to me...

The part for what? The attempt to correct me or your lowercase letter or something else?

[Meledelion]

The part for what? The attempt to correct me or your lowercase letter or something else?

The correction.

[MrSerious]

people like zerker warriors,mesmers and support/tanky guardians because they have the abilities that work well together in dungeon.

Basically guardian buff everyone (stacks of might, retal, protection, aegis) mesmer uses veil of light to group mobs up against a wall. Fully buffed Warriors charge in and hundred blades them down while mesmer drops a time warp on them. BOOM - everything explodes. Also guardians have reflection walls and mesmers have reflection bubbles which are great for keeping ranged threats at bay.

Then again every class does bring something. When I bring my ranger with piercing arrows I can do massive amounts of damage if I am positioned right. That with water fields/blast combos give a nice AoE heal if you're with a hammer guardian (low cooldown on his blast finisher)

My Elementalist is traited in sharing buffs. So I am constantly giving out heals, might, vigor, protection and I can lay down probably the most blast combos/fields of any class in the game.

I don't have a necro, engineer or thief since those classes didn't really appeal to me so I can't comment on them too much. I know my friend has a necro and their wells are handy and also necro seem to be quite tanky with lifesteals and multiple health bars. I do find myself reviving thieves a lot when in dungeons. They are a ganking terror in WvW but seem to be horrible in PvE.

[Meledelion]

people like zerker warriors,mesmers and support/tanky guardians because they have the abilities that work well together in dungeon.

Then again every class does bring something. When I bring my ranger with piercing arrows I can do massive amounts of damage if I am positioned right. That with water fields/blast combos give a nice AoE heal if you're with a hammer guardian (low cooldown on his blast finisher)

My Elementalist is traited in sharing buffs. So I am constantly giving out heals, might, vigor, protection and I can lay down probably the most blast combos/fields of any class in the game.

I don't have a necro, engineer or thief since those classes didn't really appeal to me so I can't comment on them too much. I know my friend has a necro and their wells are handy and also necro seem to be quite tanky with lifesteals and multiple health bars. I do find myself reviving thieves a lot when in dungeons. They are a ganking terror in WvW but seem to be horrible in PvE.

I prefer zerker guards. The difference between an AH build (strife's) and the ultimate build (GK's) is dps out put. Both guardians bring the same utilities with the same CD and in any serious group the guardian will have most toughness so stacking more isn't needed to anchor.

Rangers don't bring nice DMG at all. If you want to do good dmg you need to use a sword (which you're not). For AoE dmg a war outclasses you easily, so does nearly every class. Water fields are overrated in PvE, any competent group doesn't need more healing then regen from a guardian.

Eles do bring everything what you say, the problem is everything that an ele brings is already brought by the rest of the team so basically you're simply sacrificing DPS.

Necro's wells are handy but on a really long CD. Being tanky is vastly overrated, if you're good at dodging you won't die anyway. Thieves can be very tanky if they go PW spam or pure BS since they never get agro.

[Deleted]

If people are talking about both Mesmers AND Guardians in dungeons, they got to be talking about FOTM, fractals of the mist.
Projectile deflection/reflection is very powerful in FOTM, and Mes and Guardians have easy access to a them.

Mesmers are also handy for time warp, for portal through difficult to pass terrain or terrain puzzles.

[Meledelion]

If people are talking about both Mesmers AND Guardians in dungeons, they got to be talking about FOTM, fractals of the mist.

No, war/mes/guard is the best setup everywhere.

[Lazuli]

What are you getting out grinding this dungeon on repeat?

Gold, lodestones, tokens to salvage rares from CoF merchant, bunch of trash gear to sell to merchant and the occasional and very rare exotic drop that sells on TP for usually 1-6 gold. You net a pretty good gold per hour doing this, more than anything else in the game.

[LilSaihah]

What are you getting out grinding this dungeon on repeat?

~20 silver from boss kills, boosted by utility necky(20%)/omnomnomberry(40% iirc)
26 silver from dungeon completion

9 blues or better, up to and including exotics

Up to 29 CoF tokens a farm run(30 tokens = yellow = roughly 18s market value if you could sell it)

A chance at Molten Cores(4s) and Molten Lodestones(70s)

Depending on how optimally you run the instance, it can take as little as 4 minutes to complete.

[Kickbuttmario]

~20 silver from boss kills, boosted by utility necky(20%)/omnomnomberry(40% iirc)
26 silver from dungeon completion

9 blues or better, up to and including exotics

Up to 29 CoF tokens a farm run(30 tokens = yellow = roughly 18s market value if you could sell it)

A chance at Molten Cores(4s) and Molten Lodestones(70s)

Depending on how optimally you run the instance, it can take as little as 4 minutes to complete.

World record was 5 min and 30 seconds...

[Meledelion]

World record was 5 min and 30 seconds...

No, that's strife thinking he's the best of the world and claiming it's the fastest. (his record of GL got shattered as well but ofc those guys don't get the attention strife does)

[Dempsey]

I prefer zerker guards. The difference between an AH build (strife's) and the ultimate build (GK's) is dps out put. Both guardians bring the same utilities with the same CD and in any serious group the guardian will have most toughness so stacking more isn't needed to anchor.

Rangers don't bring nice DMG at all. If you want to do good dmg you need to use a sword (which you're not). For AoE dmg a war outclasses you easily, so does nearly every class. Water fields are overrated in PvE, any competent group doesn't need more healing then regen from a guardian.

Eles do bring everything what you say, the problem is everything that an ele brings is already brought by the rest of the team so basically you're simply sacrificing DPS.

Necro's wells are handy but on a really long CD. Being tanky is vastly overrated, if you're good at dodging you won't die anyway. Thieves can be very tanky if they go PW spam or pure BS since they never get agro.

GK's build actually misses out on a pretty big part of being a guard in a structured group, removing conditions. He doesn't take advantage of the 15 point Radiance trait at all, and ignores some pretty helpful group traits in an effort to gain personal DPS, really his build is probably something just thrown together for orr farming.

A guards role in the group described by op is to relieve pressure from the other 4 people, thus the AH build, 0/0/30/30/10 with soldiers runes to remove conditions. 10 in virtues for increase wall time, 3k armor for whatever aggro table holds it, and other varied boons the guards give. Yes this was a build ran by strife and most of DnT. However DnT's guards are currently running a DPS spec that I can immediately tell is much better than GK's mainly because it makes better use of effective power, while still providing the condition removal.

It also adds more might, more vulnerability and doesn't waste trait slots with traits like inner fire which are very rarely proced in pve since burning is a pretty uncommon condition and his build never suggests torch, either way it only helps him and not the group.

There are 2 variations the more common 0/30/0/30/10 using sword/focus as primaries, here you should be constantly spamming F1 in unavoidable trash mob fights and the virtue is pretty comparable to FGJ in boss fights minus the fury of course. Your blinds will also cause vulnerability which will help with 25 stack up time, and can replace blocks where viable. At least 1 shout is on at all times usually 2 and in some cases 3 either way this is important for group condition removal.
In an organized group having 1 person removing conditions instead of everybody fending for themselves helps with a few things. 1) the others can specialize for needed utility of the fight on their end meaning more dps or certain skills the guard doesn't have that help with survival. 2.) lazy players wont be downed by conditions they arn't paying attention to. sure they should be paying attention some what but, letting others focus on their specific job helps complete the task sooner and faster is just better most of the time.
The second build does a little more damage but gives up longer wall duration. 10/25/0/30/5
Both builds offer more DPS (the first build is just slightly more) than GK's and provide the group with more "support" and overall utility.
gk's
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/....0|0.0.0.0.0|e
DnT 1
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/....0|0.0.0.0.0|e
DnT 2
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/....0|0.0.0.0.0|e

Also I am not sure you have heard or the dubbed "thor" build for eles which in some cases provides better DPS than a warrior, but lacks the group might and vul stacking
Build provided-
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/...0.26.1z.1t.0|e

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 02:26 AM ----------

~20 silver from boss kills, boosted by utility necky(20%)/omnomnomberry(40% iirc)
26 silver from dungeon completion

9 blues or better, up to and including exotics

Up to 29 CoF tokens a farm run(30 tokens = yellow = roughly 18s market value if you could sell it)

A chance at Molten Cores(4s) and Molten Lodestones(70s)

Depending on how optimally you run the instance, it can take as little as 4 minutes to complete.

I would love to see CoF completed in 4 min without any exploits.

[Meledelion]

I see you've awakened from your 3month hibernation, welcome back. I take it you remember our last discussion and I'd like to address this now, told you so...
(strife switched to a build more in line with what I've suggested ages ago...)

Back on topic:

1.1 GK's build actually misses out on a pretty big part of being a guard in a structured group, removing conditions. He doesn't take advantage of the 15 point Radiance trait at all, and ignores some pretty helpful group traits in an effort to gain personal DPS, really his build is probably something just thrown together for orr farming.

1.2 A guards role in the group described by op is to relieve pressure from the other 4 people, thus the AH build, 0/0/30/30/10 with soldiers runes to remove conditions. 10 in virtues for increase wall time, 3k armor for whatever aggro table holds it, and other varied boons the guards give. Yes this was a build ran by strife and most of DnT. However DnT's guards are currently running a DPS spec that I can immediately tell is much better than GK's mainly because it makes better use of effective power, while still providing the condition removal.

2.1 It also adds more might, more vulnerability and doesn't waste trait slots with traits like inner fire which are very rarely proced in pve since burning is a pretty uncommon condition and his build never suggests torch, either way it only helps him and not the group.

2.2There are 2 variations the more common 0/30/0/30/10 using sword/focus as primaries, here you should be constantly spamming F1 in unavoidable trash mob fights and the virtue is pretty comparable to FGJ in boss fights minus the fury of course. Your blinds will also cause vulnerability which will help with 25 stack up time, and can replace blocks where viable.

3. At least 1 shout is on at all times usually 2 and in some cases 3 either way this is important for group condition removal.

1.3 In an organized group having 1 person removing conditions instead of everybody fending for themselves helps with a few things.
1) the others can specialize for needed utility of the fight on their end meaning more dps or certain skills the guard doesn't have that help with survival.
2.) lazy players wont be downed by conditions they arn't paying attention to. sure they should be paying attention some what but, letting others focus on their specific job helps complete the task sooner and faster is just better most of the time.

4. The second build does a little more damage but gives up longer wall duration. 10/25/0/30/5
Both builds offer more DPS (the first build is just slightly more) than GK's and provide the group with more "support" and overall utility.

5. Also I am not sure you have heard or the dubbed "thor" build for eles which in some cases provides better DPS than a warrior, but lacks the group might and vul stacking.

1. Can you give me a list of all fights where condition removal is crucial to clear the dungeon?

1.1 Can you expand a bit on why GK doesn't take advantage of Justice is Blind?
1.2 A guardian's role is to bring projectile reflects and things like stability when needed. Most fights guardians bring more reflects than shouts. Clearly anchoring isn't as important as strife first thought if they are now mostly running dps builds/zerker gear. Stating that one clearly has more dmg is fine but I'll make my usual request, do you have a spreadsheet to back up your claims?
1.3 Why make the guardian do this? Using Pure of Voice to remove conditions is like relying on Vigorous Shouts to heal. They have the same pitfalls, mainly that you have to chose for what purpose you'll use your shout, effectively trading out utility for another instead of adding to it.

Warriors and mesmers have more reliable condition removal (null field/shake it off) that don't trade utility. Mesmer always has a "free" slot anyway and warriors don't need to all run OMM to keep vulnerability up giving them a free slot for SIO.

2.1 Do you need more might and vulnerability? 3warriors and a mes cap out on might/vulnerability. Inner Fire indeed is a waste but I don't think GK actually takes it... (also Torch doesn't proc IF, you should know this).

2.2 See 2.1

3. See 1.3, you're letting the game dictate when to pop skills instead of waiting for the optimal time.

4. If you compare the DPS build to GK's you are trading off a total of 15 points. Compare this to the 25points going with 30/30/10 vs GK's you notice that they are evolving more to GK's build.

I doubt 5% faster virtue recharge is all that useful, compare that to 5% extra crit dmg (valor). We've already talked about how I find condi removal overrated on guardians and why I dislike PoV, this gives another 5 points to add to valor. So atm it looks like 10/25/10/25/0. Knowing that Elusive Power got nerfed (you have to have less than 1bar of energy) makes it a very risky trait and thus not so helpful. If you can chose between 15% crit chance and 10% dmg if you have less than 1 bar of energy it should be clear that 15% crit chance is better.

And now we've come full circle 10/30/10/20/0.

5. I have and you yourself have addressed what I dislike about it (I'm used to seeing it with Arcane skills and Arcane Lightning though, so I'm not up to date it seems). My response was towards the boon share build and that bringing that build for the buffs simply sacrifices DPS since a war/mes/guard combo already brings everything without needing an ele.

TLDR; Condition removal is overrated and if you really need it why force the guardian to do it instead of a mes or war?

[LilSaihah]

I would love to see CoF completed in 4 min without any exploits.

Pfff, no. That's the point of spamming CoF1; it's so easily exploited that you can make bank without any effort at all.

[Dempsey]

1. a few boss and trash mob fights in CM, TA, SE, CoE ( a good guardian during alpha can keep the fire cured and the attack that causes it blocked) and some fights in Arah. Strifes guides are mainly made for starting players looking to complete or learn how to farm any of these and others not listed effectively.

1.1 He doesn't take Blind Exposure (VI), instead he takes Inner Fire (IV) as listed on his guide on guru. And he doesn't take (at least) the 5 point minor trait in virtues. 3 might every time it's cast. either way in an effective trait set up to adapt to the situation you should have at least 10 in virtues for Master of Consecrations, which buffs 1 of the 2 reflect skills the guardian has. IIRC spirit shield absorbs and so does #5 shield.

1.2 and .3 ( i shouldn't need to provide obvious spread sheets telling you zerker is better) Because a guardian's shouts, unlike a warriors, do not have the mandate of being spammed. Not all the time does the group need stability. The group, if working correctly, shouldn't need regen, and "Retreat" can be timed to block attacks and cure if needed. Where as OMM and FGJ should be cast at all times making the shout heal/cond removal on a warrior non optimal. Since a guardian in a structured group brings the needed support for the dps to just dps it's primary focus shouldn't be dps, thus a guardian shouldn't sacrifice utility just for more personal dps as GK's build does. Where as ours keeps all of the needed support for every dungeon while maintaining higher effective power. (According to Gw2buildcraft.com) But really that's only because GK's chooses 40% boon duration over ruby orbs. The boon duration isn't really needed and both are only for personal gain so why not take the much better ruby orbs?
Warriors only need to warrior things up, why waste time swapping skills for a 10 second fight (46 in lupys case). Mesmers only need to worry about what they need to worry about again why switch skills when you can have a dedicated member already completing the task.

2.1/2 IIRC all champs and legendaries get rid of vul 50% faster even crit based vul and OMM cant keep up in fights lasting much longer than slave driver so having all 3 OMM + the guardians 3 blinds makes the task much easier, and though the warriors have an effective way of keeping 25 might the mesmer and guard do not. And i did not know that about torch as I do not take a subpar PvE trait and do not take a torch either.

3. That's kind of the role of a support class in a structured group, even though the build maybe named DPS guard etc etc and just because it uses full zerker doesn't mean it's utility needs to take a hit.

4. I am not only attacking GK's trait set up, which if both builds used the exact same gear would be better in terms of effective power. I am attacking the build, mainly the rune choice and trait choice together. He selects a superior trait set up for personal dps true, however he drags it down with a terrible rune selection, and then drags it further down by lacking even a simple trait to make wall of reflection even more over powered. It remains simple, if you wanted to spread condition removal to the rest of the group and let the lowest DPS class in the group take more DPS traits that's fine. However, in our build we do not have to sacrifice the dps of any other member, and our build has more effective power, ours is just more optimal.

5. I was only providing a solution to a possible loss in dps, use the thor build. sometimes people like to run other classes and its the only one that can replace just 1 warrior, but only 1 warrior.

6. I believe i remember our conversation. I was away doing adult things, IIRC it was about gs vs axe/mace, my argument was actually based off of the broken auto attack axe chain, which before it was fixed was putting out way more damage than, well, anything. I didn't know it was a bug at the time and had been fixed either. To conclude yes the GS HB/WW combo does deal more dps than axe/mace, however, staying in GS 100% of the time is a choice I would expect from a beginning player roaming in open PvE. If memory serves your build is 25/25/0/10/10, But I submit that you run spreadsheets for 20/25/0/10/15 using Gs+ Axe/mace with a ration like this. And if you're in melee range tremor hits twice.

Tremor
Cyclone Axe
Crushing Blow
Swap to Greatsword
Hundred Blades
Autoattack once
Whirlwind Attack
Cancel Whirlwind early with a swap to Axe ( you'll still hit with every whirl but it cancels the animation cool down)
Autoattack / Cyclone Axe
Crushing Blow / autoattack
Tremor if it is up, if not, continue Autoattacks
Eviscerate if the target is low. If not, swap back to Greatsword

[Meledelion]

1. Regarding condition removal check the thread in guru: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/...0#entry2203098 it's been explained very well over there. In summary, for trash it's a lot more efficient to let the wars bring SIO since OMM is pretty useless vs shit that gets globalled. They also don't need to sacrifice anything other than one utility slot where as the guardian has to sacrifice traits and utilities.

1.1 I agree that he should take inner fire over blind exposure, I thought he did though (it's what I run) hence the confusion, my bad. I'm not convinced on increased concecrations, you get a 6s uptime increase which isn't a lot for 10 traits. Don't get me wrong it sure is handy but when you're rofl-zerging I doubt you'll reall notice it.
1.2 Ofcourse ruby orbs are better, I use them on my guardian as well so again a mix up on my part. However as pointed out in the guru thread, you lose close to 600 effective power by running the non GK build.
1.3 Also stated in the guru thread, you use shouts reactionary meaning that if you need stability and you use your shout it's RNG whether you're removing conditions or not (or the other way around obviously).

You don't need condition removal on GL, no clue why you bring that up. You really don't waste time at all, as you run in you change in SIO if need be, just like with other situational skills...

You can have a dedicated member to remove conditions, the thing is that letting the mes or war deal with conditions sacrifices a lot less in comparison to the guardian.

2. War/mes/guard all provide vulnerability: GS auto attack on war+crit+axe 2 mace 4, mes GS2+ auto sword and guard through blinds. It's quite easy to keep up 25stacks of vuln so you don't really need OMM, again it's handy but it isn't needed at all (if you look at strife's vids you see they hardly run it anyway).

3. You didn't seem to get it, read over 1.3 again, you're trading one utility (the active effect on the shout so stab/aegis/prot/...) for condition removal.

4. Again I'm copying straight from the guru thread, you don't lose dps on a war if you drop out FGJ for SIO or decoy for null-field. I again agree that his runes are a horrible choice but I had personally "fixed" that problem already.

5. Beside the point, I get where you're coming from and you get where I'm coming from and I think we agree.

6. I run the GS/axe+mace build myself for dungeons since it idd has higher dps. Also note that you shouldn't use axe2 if there's 25stacks of vuln up since that's a dps loss.

PS: I went with your links for the traits, which also assume blind exposure on GK's build and I think the bottom guardian build is the same as the second one.

[Dempsey]

1.1 More often than not we take FGJ/frenzy/banner, as it just kills the mob(s) that much faster imo.
1.2 According to his thread he takes inner fire, I was in the habit of selecting blind exposure and must've done so on his builds link.
1.3 In most fights that the mob has conditions they do not have knock downs, except for groups in CM and maybe the destroyer in SE3, so while fighting condition applying mobs you can burn shouts to remove conditions, in fights that have both that would be kind of true where as you can burn SYG for needed stability but using retreat effectively can cure 1 condition then block the next, while HTL can be saved to just cure conditions.
I mention lupy because it is about the only fight that takes much longer than 30 seconds to kill, I know no conditions are applied it was just an example you could be coming from a boss that applied conditions and then going to a boss like GL where you don't need any. The warriors would be swapping skills where as no member would have to swap in our case.

I can agree that either of those would lose less if they swapped, but if they could do everything a guard can without a guard I see the new meta being 3 war 2 mes.
I suppose I prefer a dedicated member filling a role rather than having every member fill that 1 role. Both work however.

2. I'm aware I am in some of those videos.
3. Again I feel that in most fights CodR is needed some of those active effects are not. Except for aegis, which con be used to cure 1 and block the next.
4. Null field I could see being an optimal selection but I am not sure if losing FGJ would be, just because it is up for every fight. If you're bouncing from fight to fight I would think some dps loss would happen just because fury uptime would not be optimal. Unless you're suggesting the only 1 warrior swap for the skill, but then how would you deal with conditions while it's on CD. Even a good rotation of 1 shake it off and null field would have a downtime null field isn't immediate and neither can provide a block for the next possible condition, I just think that a good rotation from the guard is more effective.
5. Indeed
6, I'm aware
7. Yes I chose blind exposure out of habit. And yes it is, must've forgotten to hit a new get link button http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/....0|0.0.0.0.0|e That is the correct build.
If you convinced GK to use ruby orbs then hats off to you that was the only thing keeping his effective power under our build. He is very stubborn when he has his ideas about him such as the ranger vs warrior, however I feel that our build still provides better support options while maintaining a comparable amount of dps

[Meledelion]

I can agree that either of those would lose less if they swapped, but if they could do everything a guard can without a guard I see the new meta being 3 war 2 mes.
I suppose I prefer a dedicated member filling a role rather than having every member fill that 1 role. Both work however.

Well you'll probably still need the guardian for projectile defence, aegis,...

I don't bother trying to change anyone's view, I post my opinion and like it when ppl point out fallacies so I can improve. I don't care w/e someone runs if we don't play together.

The important thing here is that you and I both know what the other person thinks so it comes down to preference. I'd like to thank you for acknowledging that the others would lose less.