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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    What do you base this statement on?
    Logs, raidbot and personal experience. I'm 11/13H and have done every fight as both spec, and I also know many top hunters and we regularly discuss some tactics.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-04 at 11:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Truefire View Post
    Talking about 25 man, for consorts, it's definitely not needed for hunters to be survival to kill adds. BM is better damage for killing Suen which is what should be focused on to kill the boss. You mentioned keeping dots on Suen during p1 but that's irrelevant since most early progression kills required hard switching to Suen every instance she is out in p1. For animus, if you are required to tank adds with your pet, then yes survival would be only option. The reason why I believe multi dotting is not helping your raid as survival on that fight is because other classes actually get other benefits from keeping dots on the other mobs and unless you are struggling to have them low enough to put into the massive before time is up, it is generally better to be BM and just do better boss damage while the locks/moonkins/spriests take care of the adds because they have the better means and resources to do so. We have to give up almost all of our boss damage in order to keep golems multi dotted, while say a demo lock could just put doom on all of them and have more imps spawn and actually do better boss damage. It's not as big of a gain for spriests/moonkin as it is for a demo lock to keep everything dotted but the adds do have to die at a certain point and they lose out on much less boss damage than a hunter attempting to do the same job.
    I assume you're specifically speaking for 25 man, because I feel like survival may be best for us on heroic 10 lei shen.

  2. #22
    Yes, I believe you have to be survival for 10 man lei shen with how ball lightnings are handled.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Truefire View Post
    Talking about 25 man, for consorts, it's definitely not needed for hunters to be survival to kill adds. BM is better damage for killing Suen which is what should be focused on to kill the boss. You mentioned keeping dots on Suen during p1 but that's irrelevant since most early progression kills required hard switching to Suen every instance she is out in p1. For animus, if you are required to tank adds with your pet, then yes survival would be only option. The reason why I believe multi dotting is not helping your raid as survival on that fight is because other classes actually get other benefits from keeping dots on the other mobs and unless you are struggling to have them low enough to put into the massive before time is up, it is generally better to be BM and just do better boss damage while the locks/moonkins/spriests take care of the adds because they have the better means and resources to do so. We have to give up almost all of our boss damage in order to keep golems multi dotted, while say a demo lock could just put doom on all of them and have more imps spawn and actually do better boss damage. It's not as big of a gain for spriests/moonkin as it is for a demo lock to keep everything dotted but the adds do have to die at a certain point and they lose out on much less boss damage than a hunter attempting to do the same job.
    The add point is a minor point, you are correct in that you don't need to be Survival for those. But I really fail to see how Beast Mastery is better on twins regarding damage on Suen during the tears of the sun phase. Damage continues to tick on Suen as Survival where you need to delay cooldowns for Beast Mastery or simply not have any up at all.

    Also correct that some other classes benefit more by multi-dotting. However that doesn't mean damage is wasted, depending on your group. In this one case I'm looking at me and my own group instead of the fight in general. We are low on damage in general and it takes ages before adds finally die near the correct golem. For us this multi-dot damage isn't wasted in the slightest. Heck I wish we had more multi-dotters. But I already brought up the Tenacity pet tanking so I guess this is a bit of a moot point.

    My point is that multi-dotting isn't always wasted DPS and when it isn't, Survival is the top spec. I would still say in general Survival performs better on these fights.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  4. #24
    I think that at this point, most guilds are using pets to tank Dark Animus adds, just to make the fight less hectic (having your healers not tanking adds makes it alot easier on overaggro issues from dot-horny moonkins, and makes things more stable overall we found). Due to meta's and gear, the fight is no longer hard to meet the enrage on (we used 2x surv hunters and 2x warlock pets tanking golems, and we skipped the "pour the 1-stack golems into each other then into massive"-part as we didn't need the extra 20 seconds it gives). Overall for a guild progressing the fight, while BM may be the stronger spec for pure singletarget DMG, I'd personally recommend surv and using the utility that it turns out hunters actually have.


    As for Twins, Serpent sting/BA will keep on ticking on Suen after she "dissappears" (AMOC will NOT), but BA will not trigger Lock and Load procs. So essentially, you'll only throw BA on her once (in your opener in the start of the fight, you get 3 seconds before she dissappears - ES-BA-SS). That's essentially the advantage Surv has over BM in the first phase - the dots you throw on her will do more overall due to surv mastery. Also, Surv is far more steady damage than BM, meaning that your damage done in P1 to Suen may be lower as BM, if you don't delay BW to tears are used etc - if you do, the burst you can do in that window of time is probably higher. BM would only win out due to P2+3 damage I'd reckon.

    As for Qon, always been wondering how the deadzone works for the hunter pet - does it work like Jinrokh's pools (if the hunter's got it, the pet has it), or does it work like Garalons legs (if the pet is standing behind it, it's got it, if not, then it's free to dps)? Or does the pet simply move around to hit the dog where its vulnearable? I have a really aids position, absolutely no camera angle to see it, really =P.

    Ra den it's quite easy to see why BM is stronger (burst on anima orbs + pure singletarget burn).

    As for Lei Shen - assuming that you have no issues meeting the "soft" timers (pushing before conduits level), why is BM stronger than Surv? The balls seem quite deadly (mind, only been practicing on P2 so far), and surv is far stronger at dealing with them, and one of the "best" heavy burst AOE specs in the game if you manage to save fervor.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    The add point is a minor point, you are correct in that you don't need to be Survival for those. But I really fail to see how Beast Mastery is better on twins regarding damage on Suen during the tears of the sun phase. Damage continues to tick on Suen as Survival where you need to delay cooldowns for Beast Mastery or simply not have any up at all.

    Also correct that some other classes benefit more by multi-dotting. However that doesn't mean damage is wasted, depending on your group. In this one case I'm looking at me and my own group instead of the fight in general. We are low on damage in general and it takes ages before adds finally die near the correct golem. For us this multi-dot damage isn't wasted in the slightest. Heck I wish we had more multi-dotters. But I already brought up the Tenacity pet tanking so I guess this is a bit of a moot point.

    My point is that multi-dotting isn't always wasted DPS and when it isn't, Survival is the top spec. I would still say in general Survival performs better on these fights.
    For our Dark Animus progression, we wanted our adds to die slightly before the first siphon. With that much time, even the better dot classes, moonkins/locks/spriests, had to stop dotting at some point or the adds would've died to early. If we had our hunters dotting on top of that, the other classes would have to stop dotting even sooner resulting in overall less raid dps. The main focus of that fight is to kill the adds without giving up any boss damage as the soft enrage is very tight.

    As for Consorts, your argument is that the dots you put up on Suen right as tears of the sun is ending make Survival overall stronger for Suen damage. I completely disagree with that statement because I believe that BM single target is far enough ahead and even if you had bestial wrath up for one of those 10 second burst windows, BM would easily outshine survival on Suen damage. Also, the difference between a BM serpent sting and Survival serpent sting over 15 seconds is very very minor. Even if you were to save black arrow for Suen, you would not make up the single target difference on Suen that BM gains you.
    Last edited by Truefire; 2013-05-05 at 01:29 AM.

  6. #26
    I don't mean to be rude but....why are people explaining how to do the fights to Truefire? he's obviously done them all.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I think that at this point, most guilds are using pets to tank Dark Animus adds, just to make the fight less hectic (having your healers not tanking adds makes it alot easier on overaggro issues from dot-horny moonkins, and makes things more stable overall we found). Due to meta's and gear, the fight is no longer hard to meet the enrage on (we used 2x surv hunters and 2x warlock pets tanking golems, and we skipped the "pour the 1-stack golems into each other then into massive"-part as we didn't need the extra 20 seconds it gives). Overall for a guild progressing the fight, while BM may be the stronger spec for pure singletarget DMG, I'd personally recommend surv and using the utility that it turns out hunters actually have.


    As for Twins, Serpent sting/BA will keep on ticking on Suen after she "dissappears" (AMOC will NOT), but BA will not trigger Lock and Load procs. So essentially, you'll only throw BA on her once (in your opener in the start of the fight, you get 3 seconds before she dissappears - ES-BA-SS). That's essentially the advantage Surv has over BM in the first phase - the dots you throw on her will do more overall due to surv mastery. Also, Surv is far more steady damage than BM, meaning that your damage done in P1 to Suen may be lower as BM, if you don't delay BW to tears are used etc - if you do, the burst you can do in that window of time is probably higher. BM would only win out due to P2+3 damage I'd reckon.

    As for Qon, always been wondering how the deadzone works for the hunter pet - does it work like Jinrokh's pools (if the hunter's got it, the pet has it), or does it work like Garalons legs (if the pet is standing behind it, it's got it, if not, then it's free to dps)? Or does the pet simply move around to hit the dog where its vulnearable? I have a really aids position, absolutely no camera angle to see it, really =P.

    Ra den it's quite easy to see why BM is stronger (burst on anima orbs + pure singletarget burn).

    As for Lei Shen - assuming that you have no issues meeting the "soft" timers (pushing before conduits level), why is BM stronger than Surv? The balls seem quite deadly (mind, only been practicing on P2 so far), and surv is far stronger at dealing with them, and one of the "best" heavy burst AOE specs in the game if you manage to save fervor.
    I gave my opinion on Dark Animus and Consorts in the post right above.

    For Qon, your pet and your kill command completely ignore the deadzone mechanic as far as I am aware. Even if it didn't, I would still prefer BM because it has much stronger cooldowns for burning down the dogs one at a time in the shortest time possible and where having them die at the same time isn't a benefit to your raid.

    On Lei Shen, you would be surprised how good Beast Cleave is for dealing with ball lightning and it is not far behind survival at all for those. You can multi shot>barrage>multi shot and see very similar results to survival on ball damage without losing out on the better boss damage. Also, most kills have had 3+ warlocks in their raid for the lock portals and if they are playing correctly, you should not need every class max aoeing to meet the ball lightning dps check.
    Last edited by Truefire; 2013-05-05 at 01:29 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    snip
    AMoC does tick on suen when she vanishes at the start. I've done it myself.

    I believe the dead zone only applies to you, my pet never missed even though I had the debuff sometimes.

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  9. #29
    And yes, AMoC 100% ticks on Suen when she's vanished.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    AMoC does tick on suen when she vanishes at the start. I've done it myself.

    I believe the dead zone only applies to you, my pet never missed even though I had the debuff sometimes.
    God how I hate that dog, such an annoying mechanic.

  11. #31
    DA depends on your raid comp, if you have a strong dot comp it's quite pointless to run survival because you can just put your pet on the boss and tunnel letting your dotters carry damage on the small adds. And seeing since more than half the fight is purely single target after Animus gets jolt ability, BM is the spec to go.

    Agreed with BM for Twins as well, unless you are having trouble getting Suen to a specific % before transition, the single target dps you gain on her is much better than the first BA and subsequent SS you put on her during Tears.
    If you are doing animal drawings, BM is also better because you spend the downtime recovering your BW cd, which is better than surv's sustain dps while having all that downtime.

    For Qon, if you don't shoot the boss or use any of your own abilities you won't get the 0% hit debuff. So if you desire BM for that fight and if the aids shield is facing you, just use pet abilities and you won't lose all your dps. Your pet inherits your hit rating, so if you have the debuff then your pet will miss as well.

  12. #32
    Well hey I don't think we are going to agree here. That's fine though, the world would be a boring place if everyone had the same views. It's also partly based on definitions. I think it's for the best to just leave it at this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hayro1 View Post
    I don't mean to be rude but....why are people explaining how to do the fights to Truefire? he's obviously done them all.
    No one is explaining how to do the fights, people are giving a reason for their arguments on why they think this way.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Well hey I don't think we are going to agree here. That's fine though, the world would be a boring place if everyone had the same views. It's also partly based on definitions. I think it's for the best to just leave it at this.



    No one is explaining how to do the fights, people are giving a reason for their arguments on why they think this way.
    I agree, most of the fights mentioned could be looked at quite differently given the raid comp/strat the guild uses. My opinions are mostly based off my experience during progression and what me/dyv found to be the best for efficient raid dps in the limited gear we had.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    AMoC does tick on suen when she vanishes at the start. I've done it myself.

    I believe the dead zone only applies to you, my pet never missed even though I had the debuff sometimes.
    AMoC does bug out if you cast it too late on Suen.

    Happend to me =/

    Code:
    [20:02:50.571] Fatal casts Serpent Sting on Suen
    [20:02:51.620] Fatal casts Kill Command on Suen
    [20:02:51.766] Suen afflicted by Serpent Sting from Fatal
    [20:02:51.766] Turtle Kill Command Suen *264439*
    [20:02:52.679] Fatal casts A Murder of Crows on Suen
    [20:02:53.623] Fatal casts Serpent Sting on Lu'lin
    [20:02:54.756] Fatal Serpent Sting Suen 23066
    [20:02:55.009] Lu'lin afflicted by Serpent Sting from Fatal
    [20:02:57.693] Fatal casts Kill Command on Lu'lin
    [20:02:57.895] Turtle Kill Command Lu'lin 153557
    [20:02:57.895] Fatal Serpent Sting Suen *55357*
    So it has to be your first skill or it won't do any damage.

    As for Iron Qon i'm pretty sure you will always miss even with the pet when you got the Dead Zone debuff.

    Code:
    [21:20:17.620]  Fatal afflicted by Dead Zone from Dam'ren
    [21:20:18.966]  Fatal casts Kill Command on Dam'ren
    [21:20:18.966]  Fatal Kill Command Dam'ren Miss
    Anyways, with better gear BM will be better then SV at Jin'rokh the Breaker, Primordius, Dark Animus (only if your pet doesn't tank), Iron Qon, Twins, Lei Shen, Ra-Den and it even can pull almost the same dps on fights like Durumu.
    You just don't see many Hunter play BM for the extra 10-15k dps single target because it's way more complicated to pull off then SV.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatall View Post
    AMoC does bug out if you cast it too late on Suen.

    Happend to me =/

    Code:
    [20:02:50.571] Fatal casts Serpent Sting on Suen
    [20:02:51.620] Fatal casts Kill Command on Suen
    [20:02:51.766] Suen afflicted by Serpent Sting from Fatal
    [20:02:51.766] Turtle Kill Command Suen *264439*
    [20:02:52.679] Fatal casts A Murder of Crows on Suen
    [20:02:53.623] Fatal casts Serpent Sting on Lu'lin
    [20:02:54.756] Fatal Serpent Sting Suen 23066
    [20:02:55.009] Lu'lin afflicted by Serpent Sting from Fatal
    [20:02:57.693] Fatal casts Kill Command on Lu'lin
    [20:02:57.895] Turtle Kill Command Lu'lin 153557
    [20:02:57.895] Fatal Serpent Sting Suen *55357*
    So it has to be your first skill or it won't do any damage.

    As for Iron Qon i'm pretty sure you will always miss even with the pet when you got the Dead Zone debuff.

    Code:
    [21:20:17.620]  Fatal afflicted by Dead Zone from Dam'ren
    [21:20:18.966]  Fatal casts Kill Command on Dam'ren
    [21:20:18.966]  Fatal Kill Command Dam'ren Miss
    Anyways, with better gear BM will be better then SV at Jin'rokh the Breaker, Primordius, Dark Animus (only if your pet doesn't tank), Iron Qon, Twins, Lei Shen, Ra-Den and it even can pull almost the same dps on fights like Durumu.
    You just don't see many Hunter play BM for the extra 10-15k dps single target because it's way more complicated to pull off then SV.
    I always cast it first and that seems to do the trick. I'm pretty sure KC uses your hit rating, that's why it missed. Your pet is otherwise unaffected by it.

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  16. #36
    Ye you are right my mistake it's only KC the pet does never miss even in the dead zone.

    Im curious what other Hunter with 530+ ilvl pull at Twin Consorts as SV because the logs are still invalid.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2720&e=3261
    I was playing BM and didn't even spam aoe when the Lurker appeared. I did only 1 Multi-shot at the beginning of the phase so i could do more if i really wanted to scumbag on the adds.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatall View Post
    Im curious what other Hunter with 530+ ilvl pull at Twin Consorts as SV because the logs are still invalid.
    You just have to browse normal kills for the logs.

    151k MM http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6459&e=7056
    167k SV w adds http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6393&e=7014
    ~150 without adds usually

    done 3-4 weeks ago with ~531/532 ilvl.. i think
    Last edited by vooyas; 2013-05-05 at 10:45 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatall View Post
    Ye you are right my mistake it's only KC the pet does never miss even in the dead zone.

    Im curious what other Hunter with 530+ ilvl pull at Twin Consorts as SV because the logs are still invalid.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2720&e=3261
    I was playing BM and didn't even spam aoe when the Lurker appeared. I did only 1 Multi-shot at the beginning of the phase so i could do more if i really wanted to scumbag on the adds.
    Did 180k as BM with around 1.5 mil of that into adds.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6541&e=7119

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Truefire View Post
    Yes, I believe you have to be survival for 10 man lei shen with how ball lightnings are handled.
    After doing this Survival is okay. Adds are usually too spread for multi to even matter. Even with AOE grip and stun they die almost too fast to even matter. Beast cleave is probably better than serpent spread for this if it hits 360 around pet especially in 5.3.

    Edit: Actually I don't really know. I would just say play whatever you do best for Heroic Lei Shen. We're really close to a kill and AOE damage and killing adds is not a huge deal, so I would just say overall to play your best spec or whatever does the most damage to the boss.
    Last edited by Libertarian; 2013-05-06 at 12:40 PM.

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