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  1. #1

    Remove RNG Avoidance from PvP

    So that melee don't have to put up with this bs anymore. There's no reason for dodge/parry to exist outside of heavy cooldowns in PvP. It makes the game flat out frustrating for the attackers and lowers the skill cap for the classes doing all the avoidance.

    They had a chance to change this going into MoP by reducing/removing dodge from the agility class. Instead they went the other way by giving strength classes more parry. No one likes having their attacks completely ignored based entirely on randomness. Critical strikes are enough randomness already.

    Classes that are reliant on these mechanics for their survival simply shouldn't be. Monks, and to a lesser extent the rest of the agility and to an even lesser extent the plate classes, should be compensated with anti-melee survivability buffs in the way of new cds or baseline damage reduction IF NECESSARY on a class to class basis.

    P.S. Tanks can keep their passive avoidance though.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2013-05-04 at 04:53 PM.
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  2. #2
    If rogues can manage to get behind their target to land their combo-builder, other melee can cope with doing the same to land guaranteed hits. The alternative is to give leather wearers the same armor level as plate and reduce physical damage across the board - way too much to balance for insignificant gains.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-05-04 at 04:42 PM.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    If rogues can manage to get behind their target to land their combo-builder, other melee can cope with doing the same to land guaranteed hits. The alternative is to give leather wearers the same armor level as plate and reduce physical damage across the board - way too much to balance for insignificant gains.
    Yeaaah except other classes don't have like a million options to get behind their target. Talking about 3 stuns, that shadowstep thingy with 20 sec CD, incapacitate, + 3 free openers with vanish and prep. So you can't really compare a DK or a warrior to a rogue when it comes to getting the target.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    If rogues can manage to get behind their target to land their combo-builder, other melee can cope with doing the same to land guaranteed hits. The alternative is to give leather wearers the same armor level as plate and reduce physical damage across the board - way too much to balance for insignificant gains.
    Rogues haven't had to rely heavily on staying behind their targets this expansion because hemo nets similar results as backstab. On the burst end of things, with the cad nerf you have to go back to setting up your shadow dances with kidney shots. What you said is no excuse for having a retarded and unnecessary mechanic in this game.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  5. #5
    lol what's retarded about the idea of an agile class wearing lightweight armor being harder to hit than a derping meatshield in 5" thick plate? It's a staple concept of RPGs and historical gladiatorial combat.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    So that melee don't have to put up with this bs anymore. There's no reason for dodge/parry to exist outside of heavy cooldowns in PvP. It makes the game flat out frustrating for the attackers and lowers the skill cap for the classes doing all the avoidance.

    They had a chance to change this going into MoP by reducing/removing dodge from the agility class. Instead they went the other way by giving strength classes more parry. No one likes having their attacks completely ignored based entirely on randomness. Critical strikes are enough randomness already.

    Classes that are reliant on these mechanics for their survival simply shouldn't be. Monks, and to a lesser extent the rest of the agility and to an even lesser extent the plate classes, should be compensated with anti-melee survivability buffs in the way of new cds or baseline damage reduction IF NECESSARY on a class to class basis.

    P.S. Tanks can keep their passive avoidance though.
    Don't really see an issue myself. Personally if I know every hit is going to land it makes it somewhat a game of who hits 1st and who has the best gear and removes any element of dynamics and chance at all.
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  7. #7
    I don't usually play melee, but when I do, I get extremely frustrated because of retarded avoidance... I 100% agree, don't know how any melee can play when their 5 second stun and hard hitting attacks get dodged because of sheer randomness. And who the hell could see "no problem" in a gouge getting dodged for example?
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakari View Post
    Don't really see an issue myself. Personally if I know every hit is going to land it makes it somewhat a game of who hits 1st and who has the best gear and removes any element of dynamics and chance at all.
    Casters play without having to worry about RNG avoidance. And they're superior to melee in most if not all ways. There's enough of combat dynamics added simply with class toolsets and critical strikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Casters play without having to worry about RNG avoidance. And they're superior to melee in most if not all ways. There's enough of combat dynamics added simply with class toolsets and critical strikes.
    Yep, I think having the chance for spells / attacks to critically hit is about as much RNG as PvP needs.

    I personally don't like the fact that my WW Monks only passive defense is Sparring, which goes completely out the window as soon as a stun lands, which they fixed by giving Monks an extra stun break. I'd rather just be rid of sparring and given a 10-15% damage reduction.

  10. #10
    Flaks you're on even footing with other melee (21% avoidance) and not at a disadvantage vs casters. Protecting your vulnerable zone (your back) is part of the game, removing it reduces the skillcap even more. What next, remove LoS?
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  11. #11
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    I like avoidance, that random chance you parry and dodge 4 attacks and survive because of it. What I hate about avoidance, much like armor, is that casters don't have to deal with it. Which is bullshit.

    Make dodge/parry effect spells! If I can dodge a giant 2h axe right in front of me I should be able to dodge an ice lance from 30 yrds.

    And also CC that bypasses it. Let that avoidance hit everything. Dodge the polymorph, parry the cheapshot, dodge the repentance...
    Last edited by Korgoth; 2013-05-04 at 07:24 PM.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    I like avoidance, that random chance you parry and dodge 4 attacks and survive because of it. What I hate about avoidance, much like armor, is that casters don't have to deal with it. Which is bullshit.

    Make dodge/parry effect spells! If I can dodge a giant 2h axe right in front of me I should be able to dodge an ice lance from 30 yrds.

    And also CC that bypasses it. Let that avoidance hit everything. Dodge the polymorph, parry the cheapshot, dodge the repentance...
    Now that's a change to avoidance I'd be behind 100%!
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  13. #13
    Used to have spell resists the same way. I don't see a huge problem with it though, either out-manoeuvre your opponent and get behind them or add some expertise gems if you feel its that important.
    If you say "No expertise is not worth the loss to other stats" then you have already proved that it's not that big of a problem haha (the attacks getting dodged are not worth more than the extra secondary stat).

  14. #14
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    either out-manoeuvre your opponent and get behind them
    That is just fucking retarded and you know it. Players are not mobs the only way you are staying behind someone is if they are in CC, and not everyone is a rogue with a dozen CCs to use.
    You, you'll regret what you have done this day, I will make you regret ever being born, you're going to wish you never left your mother's womb, where it was warm and safe and wet, I am going to show you pain you never knew existed, you're going to see a whole new spectrum of pain, like a Rainbow!
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    That is just fucking retarded and you know it. Players are not mobs the only way you are staying behind someone is if they are in CC, and not everyone is a rogue with a dozen CCs to use.
    Not a problem for my warrior, DK or windwalker, perhaps I've just had lots of practice at not standing infront of someone thanks to playing a rogue.
    Last edited by Dcruize; 2013-05-04 at 08:02 PM.
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  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans serenka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuggli View Post
    Yep, I think having the chance for spells / attacks to critically hit is about as much RNG as PvP needs.

    I personally don't like the fact that my WW Monks only passive defense is Sparring, which goes completely out the window as soon as a stun lands, which they fixed by giving Monks an extra stun break. I'd rather just be rid of sparring and given a 10-15% damage reduction.

    speaking of monks, that de materialize thing when they get stunned as a healer is so f'cking annoying.
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  17. #17
    Feel free to remove RNG Avoidance, but also remove RNG damage. Remove critical strikes and proc stuns (paralytic poison) and such. Only fair if RNG is removed across the board, you can't just take it away from one part of the game.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dcruize View Post
    Not a problem for my warrior, DK or windwalker, perhaps I've just had lots of practice at not standing infront of someone thanks to playing a rogue.
    Yeah same, I did play a rogue before, now windwalker. It's remarkably easy you get behind your oponant if you have strafe bound, just because of slight world latency if nothing else, a snare goes a long way. You just don't get easy confirmation that you are in fact behind someone because other classes dont have "You must be behind your target" errors. Windwalker still needs to be in front to silence, behind for long paralyse.

    Speaking from playing subtlety, it is way easier to get behind a player than a mob because they don't auto-face you. Just walk through the target before you use your biggest attack.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord Castozor's Avatar
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    I just dislike how some specs are more punished for doges/parries than other classes. I think rng avoidance is stupid to begin with but when some classes get some of their resources refunded when they get dodged/parried or don't really suffer from cd's on their melee attacks compared to other specs something is wrong in my opinion. Getting a SS or LL dodged as Enhance for example is extremely punishing and you get nothing to compensate with which is just stupid. As long as spells can't be rng avoided unless the caster doesn't have the hit cap so should melee abilities (besides white hits ofc.) be unavoidable when hit capped.

  20. #20
    Brewmaster Ryan Cailan Ebonheart's Avatar
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    No I like the Expertise stat.
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