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  1. #61
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zamalamin View Post
    The Archon can buff allies and debuff enemies, but it is not a chore at all which stops them from being a buff bot. They are a DPS that sacrifices some of their damage on the meters to add effects to their spells such as "Enemy takes X damage and loses Y armor for Z seconds".
    <-- This is a good example of how a support role could work in Wow. while a dps would directly damage the enemy for say, 4000 damage, the supporter would deal 2000 damage directly but leave debuffs that if exploited would reach 4000 damage or even more.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 04:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Masterpd85 View Post
    and what the guy just said above you when right over your head because you just essentially repeated what he just said.

    see the "bigger" bigger picture? :P
    I don't see that tbh =P. I meant that if a support role would be added, what would be the problem with having a required spot on the LFD and LFR? Battles would have to be tuned around the new support role but apart from that they would be as mandatory as 1 tank 1 healer and 2 dps =)

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    I know its hard, but all good things are hard to create.
    They don't need to only bring boring and linear buffs as it comes down to the spec's rotation and flavour. There are numerous ways of achieving optimal buffing. I think the best presentation I could make is in any of my classes with support. If you decide to take a look just know this simple premiss. Each support role can perform dps effectively to a point where only through its support skills will the team be able to achieve the same dps as if it would be a dps spec instead.
    That sounds good on paper, but would still require either extremely linear and boring buffs or risk being situationally broken. There are already cases of the latter happening and I'm not sure if the game needs more of it. If the role ended up being yet another dps with just less personal dps and the group buffs coming through a dps rotation then I'm not sure if it would even be worth the effort of making a whole new role out of it. Such a specialisation would merely be a dpser with flavour (not a bad idea). It also wouldn't still make the buffs any more interesting because of the way they'd likely have to be balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    And as you said, if I understood it, the balance struggle would be just like any other role. Fits perfectly then =P
    It would interact heavily with all of the other specialisations in the game. I would imagine that balancing one would require much more effort than a random run-of-the-mill dps or even a healer.

    In the best case scenario you'd likely end up looking at an extremely strict amount of support characters for each group in every setting and with all of them doing essentially the same exact thing. To me that partially goes against the whole philosophy of an interesting form of support. One of the problems is also that many forms of support (CC for example) that could be well balanced in the hands of a new role are already available to everyone else in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    it is indeed for the time being, but the trick is to add the competitive factor to the support role
    I mean on a larger scale and in relation to all the activities in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    But another role wouldn't be gamebreaking imo. It would na injection of life to it! new types of encounters and new, more dynamic or even random battles applied to your daily questing and dungeons designed around your new available support role.

    My idea would be to make the game more volatile in terms of mobs. Imagine your playing your wow character in a diablo 3 setting. ambushes of mobs coming at you, random events while you are questing that keep you on your toes, even the inclusion of night in wow would be deliciously scaring. This are just the first ideas that cross my mind though
    It is a fun idea but I am extremely sceptical about it realistically working out without being, as already mentioned, boring, and/or overpowered and compulsory, and/or underpowered and novelty.

  3. #63
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    Get rid of tanking? You'll take my shield from my cold dead hands. If I could die, that is. But I won't because I'm a tank.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  4. #64
    I see... very interesting read here. You just made my day buddy =^p.
    So the conclusion I got from reading this was that you think hybrids, namely druids should be able to change specs. This is obviously impossible imo because then there would be endless QQ from other classes, namely pure dps. Also we cannot do this because there are no pure tank classes or healers so pretty much all classes are hybrids right? This means onlythere would be no need for specs anyways. The way you could imo overcome this would be by adding yet another specific type of support class/spec designed around being capable of performing two roles at once more away from dps and support but into tank and heal thus forsaking dps. Or just a morpher type of class/spec whose main role is to be able to tank and heal and dps but without being OP. This is very very farfetched I know but it was still a good creative exercise =P
    By hybrid, I am referring to classes like druid, shaman, and paladin. My pen and paper game puts tanks and healers as mostly pures with some DPS ability. Of course, WoW is in too deep to try to change things, maybe the next MMO will do something more bold.

    This bit really got me going m8. I so wish that Wow could be more like diablo and dragon age and just have random enemies and events come from nowhere, specially in dungeons and raids. This type of environment where a class's unique traits could be explored far deeply then the mere damage dealing, healing and tanking facerolls that currently mandate. that's what I would work for if I was of Blizz at least. Anyway, maybe you could check out my classes in my sig and see how I would try to implement a support role
    My thing with WoW is that due to human nature of one person plays one class, we can't have these things. I always envision an MMO were a single player controls a party of like 5 or 6 and has other members they can rotate in and out. This ends the class competition we see on the forums because everybody will have most of these classes in their roster Then for group content, they can join forces with other player's parties. Then you could design complex encounters without requiring 25 players and still have the depth.

  5. #65
    The holy trinity is working fine.

    adding a supporter class or several supporter speccs would might end up with a raiding model much like the burning crusade.
    A bloodlust shaman in every dps group, totems, a shadowpriest mana battery in the healer group if you're lucky one in the caster group to. etc etc.

    the good thing was that every specc brought a unique utility and you didn't have certain speccs being sidelines for an entire content patch because they sucked.
    Also there is something nice about playing a class where you have a more defined role i liked playing a holy paladin back in the day because I knew I was a tank healer by nature.

    But on the problem side you had required class stacking. Or you need at least 4 shamans or else you haven't got enough bloodlusts to dps the boss down. So recruiting got kinda problematic.
    Those hybrids or supporters feeling annoyed because they didn't have so high dps numbers as the pure dps.
    and flipping the coin here some healers didn't like that their endgame role was limited to tank healing


    I liked how the speccs and classes where more unique back then, but I also recognise that it was problematic at times.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by AutomaticBadger View Post
    The holy trinity of WoW has been the staple for most games and that would be the roles of Tank, Healer and DpS. Now don't get me wrong I think the current system works great. Clearly it works well otherwise it wouldn't have become so wide spread.

    First off lets call my idea the Booner.

    By saying I'd like to make a change it would be to add a new role into the current set. Something akin to the Warlord of D&D 4th Ed. who is pretty much a group buffer with tank level amount of dps to add to the composition. By buffing the group I mean they would be able to have short duration spreadable damage increasing abilities, damage reduction cooldowns and healing cooldowns. The role would be there to assist in the ebb and flow of the battle. Say during a raid the raid has a short burst phase the Booner would throw out some spreadable damage cooldowns and the same can be said for burst healing or spike damage moments.

    I know they tried the idea of a supporter back during classic and that failed. Personally I say it failed more because people didn't want to be shoe horned into roles they didn't want and the Paladin and Shaman by and large only had the roles of healer. Now by say adding a 4th spec of support for some classes it could be a spec specifically designed to be a supporter class.

    I could be wrong of course. So what do you people think.
    This sounds exactly like the Captain class from Lord of the Rings Online (the first MMO I played) - a plate-wearing, halbard-wielding buff machine who could DPS and, at a push, DPS and had a herald who carried a banner which would provide a passive buff (lorebook dot lotro dot com/wiki/Class:Captain - if someone could post the link I'd be grateful). A class I never played, but saw used to great effect.

  7. #67
    They actually tried this booner model in the past, sort of, so we can use history as a guide. Let's skip vanilla and go directly to BC, where they took the hybrid utility of shamans and paladins and spread it around to shadow priests and others. Basically, the model was hybrids bring utility (boons!) to the raid at a steep DPS penalty. By the end of the expansion, this led to weird class stacking requirements where to have a successful raid in Sunwell you needed two shadow priests, four warlocks, three paladins to secure each blessing, one and only one enhancement shaman, one and only one elemental shaman, as many resto shamans as you could manage... and by the time you were done, you could bring 2 or 3 players and not classes, as long as those players weren't shadow priests, enhance shamans, elemental shamans,.... you get the picture.

    That's exactly what would happen again if a "booner" role were introduced (or I would say re-introduced). No matter how you slice it, guilds at the cutting edge will be determined to find the perfect combination of classes/buffs to min/max their output and give them even the slightest advantage.

    A booner type doesn't fit very well into the WoW model, which is defined by damage meters, gear-based progression, and compared to other games, tightly tuned encounters and relatively balanced class DPS.
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-05-05 at 05:12 PM.

  8. #68
    I don't see any game being able to change their classes THAT much after it's gone live. So no. Waaaay too much re-balancing.

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  9. #69
    Brewmaster Well's Avatar
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    No. Trinity stays. It's a great system, and most people playing WoW like it. There is absolutely no reason to change it. There's reason to maintain it.
    Pokemon X FC: 1435-4739-8696 Trainer Name: Evershade

  10. #70
    If it were up to me, I'd just loosen it up a bit. Spread out the goods. Classes would be able to offtank in a pinch or contribute substantially to healing without being a healer. Everyone would have some damage reduction cooldowns of some sort that they would need to use or they'd die and damage would have to be avoided. And I would have woven in those mechanics not in dungeons and raids but all the way back to leveling, with the occasional mob using instant kill but easy to avoid mechanics as early as level 10.

  11. #71
    This reminds of the days before dungeon finder. Back then, if you were trying to run a heroic and your group was not geared well enough for it, you just replaced a DPS with a second healer. I remember this being particularly useful in the Shadow Labyrinth (in auchindoun). I would do this often.

    Unfortunately, dungeon finder has made 5 mans much more rigid and therefore boring. The stupid tool forces all groups into 1 tank, 1 heals, 3 dps. I've tried respeccing once I got in as a dps to a second heals to make a run easier, and people just complain because "I'm not following what the dungeon finder specified". Even if it was making a run extremely easier, they hated it!

    Another reason I quit this game...

  12. #72
    Id love to have "support" specs, if i remember correctly wasnt in vanilla feral dps and ret dps was support roles?
    I put the laughter in manslaughter
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