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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Wishblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDDGuides View Post
    They went up (as to be expected from an expansion launch) but they're slowly sloping down. I find this is more due to time than the quality of present content though.
    Sure the amount of subs might be decreasing atm, but by how many? I do believe we won't know until Blizz tells us (which should happen in a few days I believe). Unless subs have decreased by millions then MoP can't be considered a failure. A couple hundred thousands less subs? That's just life. Busy people, banned accounts, etc etc.

    Besides, never know if subs might've actually gone up slightly... We'll know when Blizz shares the numbers with us.

    But Cata wasn't a failure, a failure would leave a massive blow to the game and last I heard we're still at 9-10 million subs. If Cata failed and made millions of players leave then sure seems like others have taken their place. Cata had its negatives, but also its positives, all expansions did, and WoW is still going strong.
    "Reminds me of a dog, you stare at it while it's playing outside... Running around in a circle, then stopping up, wagging with a wide "grin". Jumping around until you call for the dog, then it lowers its tail because it think it's done something bad... And then you throw the ball, seeing the tail go straight into the air in bliss! ^^" - Gehco
    Wishblade of Draenor EU

  2. #42
    Legendary! Tizzlefix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooootles View Post
    I'll put it in much simpler reasons:

    -It was too hard
    -ZA and ZG was too hard AND felt too mandatory for many players (includes raiders who need dungeons to cap valor)
    -overall small tier raids (in boss counts)

    Made me actually quit for a couple of months in 4.1... all I could do was random dungeon and random pvp, very painful for someone who logs in a few hours a week and has no solid guild with a purpose. later patches and MoP fixed all that
    Cata was too hard? I ummm, well... The heroics were decent at the beginning but after DS released they became mute. I noticed this with Wrath but at a much faster rate, in Cata all the content became much easier after they released DS and you didn't even have to touch Firelands. Really Cata wasn't that hard, I went in DS heroic without ever touching Firelands and laughed Deathwing's face, it was trivial.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by nolliepop View Post
    liking/disliking expansions is completely subjective. i enjoyed cata, not as much as wotlk, but definitely more than mop.
    Liking or disliking anything is subjective, you keyboard freethinker, you.

  4. #44
    Cataclysm wasn't that bad, but it was still the worst expansion, mainly because it's being compared to some really awesome ones.

    I'd say the downsides were:

    - Too much focus on low level content and not the endgame, essentially compromising the quality of both.
    - Questing was way too linear, no sense of travel or discovery and very boring on repeat leveling.
    - Zones were way too disconnected from each other, you just travelled by taking portals all over the place instead of actually travelling, despite travel being easier than ever before.
    - Shared 10 & 25 lockout was controversial and reduced the possibility of raiding as much as before.
    - Overall very little raid content except on release (other expansions had twice as many bosses as Cata, MoP already has more and we can expect another 10-12+ in 5.4)
    - Running the same small amount of 5-mans over and over again, especially in 4.1 but also to extent in 4.3 (how people were cool with this but hate dailies in MoP is beyond me).
    - Portalling everywhere, mass summons and so on completely removing travelling around in the world.
    - The idea of cutscenes was nice, but they were too disruptive and overdone in a lot of places.
    - Dragon Soul, not only is it one of the worst raids blizzard made (at least considering it was meant to be the epic end of the expansion), but it was all we had for almost a year.
    My addons:
    Announce Interrupts: Announces in chat when you interrupt a spell.
    Tol Barad Reminder: Reminds you to queue for Tol Barad by printing a message when the battle is approaching.
    EasyLogger: Turns on /combatlog inside raid instances, and off outside.
    Simple class resource bars: Paladin Rogue Shaman Monk

  5. #45
    I liked Cataclysm in the beginning. The revamp of the hunter class was great and made my main more interesting to me. Leveling was...okay, I guess, though I liked Pandaria much more. 5 mans were cool before they became another aoe fest. I can't tell how people felt, who didn't raid at the time. I raided through all of T11 and it was really fun.
    Leveling alts became easier, I enjoyed that quite much (leveled a total of 9 toons over the course of cataclysm).
    4.1 was quite bad. Being forced to run ZG/ZA a few times/week was so annoying (especially if it had to be done besides raiding).
    4.2 brought another good raiding tier. I liked the dailies for some reason.
    4.3 destroyed all of it. Raidfinder kind of devastasted PuGs. At least on my server no one was interested in pugging DS, which really annoyed me, because I didn't have time to raid with a guild. The new 5 mans were okay, but they made firelands obsolete.

    So overall a decent xpac, but 4.3 made it look like it was a crap xpac.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Uzi's Avatar
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    Launch
    - Unlike Arthas, Deathwing required research to understand his motives. You're TOLD he's bad, not shown
    - Though the expansions tone was appropriate, moving from zone-to-zone felt disorienting and nothing seemed 100% connected

    4.2
    - Small raid tier, no content except the raid
    - Dailies were only mildly interesting
    - Arthas was never really shown either, it's just that much more people played WC3 than WC2.
    - It felt connected enough to me, but that's personal.
    - 4.2 - you just outright ignored a whole unique question zone, not sure if you expect to be taken seriously.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    Nah, 4.1 was also shit with 4.2 being the only decent patch in the entire xpac cycle and even that one was far behind both the quality and quantity of WoW's best content patches. Sure, 4.3 had transmog and LFR, both valuable additions to the game, but they werent 8 months worth of awesomeness. And yeah, 4.3 was full of " We'll fix it in MoP". My take on Cataclysm is that it sandwiched in a very awkward production cycle for Blizzard where the were moving from productions were the small team they had a long time to produce their work to the current system of having separate teams working on alternate patches simultaneously and they had neither the expected level of content prepared nor the manpower to deliver it. Hopefully they won't find themselves in a similar position in the future, because the lack of content made players look at the content there was with less than favorable eyes and it wasn't pretty.
    Matter of opinion. I actually liked the ZA/ZG rehash. Not enough to tide me over until Firelands mind you, but they were fun and challenging.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Karon View Post
    No content besides the raid, of course not.
    Lets just ignore the complete new questzone they added.

    After reading this statement, I stopped reading the rest.
    Molten Front was one of the most ... tedious questing zones ever.

    A lot of the mechanics in it were clever but to have to grind it for a minimum of 30 days to "get to the end," for relatively little reward, ... just terrible. It was just a horrible disheartening pointless waste of time.

    I started out thinking I would finish it on 4 toons. After one week, I quit. Eventually I farmed the jewel bag pattern on my tailor. I never bothered to get anything else.

    There was no inn there. That really really annoyed me. Lots of pointless extra flying around. I was VERY happy to see an inn in the camp on the Isle of Thunder.

    So, for folks who looked at it the same, it really was like there was nothing new except a raid. I stopped logging in for most of 2 months, had 50k of auctions expire in the mail along with a dozen heirlooms, et cetera.
    Last edited by HardCoder; 2013-05-05 at 08:36 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Notos View Post
    Leveling content has to be tuned around people without heirlooms, or else it just punishes new players or people who reroll on new realms. No real arguments against the other points from me.
    Even without heirloom gear you outlevel the zones.

    On topic the topic itself reminds me off this recent thread http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Cataclysm-why

    Personally imo the worst change ever was something that happened in wrath in preparation for cata. And that was putting 10 man and 25 man on the same lockout. Had blizzard not done that we would probably not have had the problem of casual not having raiding content.
    We also would have had a more active 25 man scene, because that change simply killed 25 mans. And honestly being in a big guild with other people chatting with them raiding with them doing dungeons etc. was was made this game a mmorpg.

    Or quoting myself:
    But in the end what I hate about cataclysm is that the changes implemented in cata with 10/25 man shared lockouts and later LFR. Destroyed the need or want to guild together or have some kind of social interaction. And that is for me very important in an mmo. Now a days it is just a glorified single player game and a single player game i can finish in a month, a game that you play together with other people that i can play for months and years.
    Last edited by Dax75; 2013-05-05 at 08:44 AM.

  10. #50
    Pandaren Monk Slummish's Avatar
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    Cataclysm was the expansion dedicated to revamping the old world; something that sorely needed fixing. Just because people bitched about the endgame falling flat doesn't mean that Cata failed. It did exactly what it was designed to do and it was successful. It fixed Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms' limitations, implemented flight and redesigned substandard mapping, implemented phasing for the old world, streamlined questing and zones for new players and set Azeroth on a technologically superior path that will serve us well for another five to seven years.

    Why does this topic always come up and what is so difficult to understand about the benefits and necessity of renovation in persistent online worlds over time?

  11. #51
    Cata felt like it started off with potential. Content amount overall was lacking. Blizzard also stopped making max level dungeons in normal mode because they taught it was bad for LFD and it bit both Blizzard and the community back. T11 was decent and still showed room for improvement down the road and if you raided ICC then you could raid T11. The daily hub did temporarily resolve some of the sever lack of content issues. Firelands felt like things was starting to drop at least from an atmosphere standpoint. The fights had some more different mechanics along with mixes of the old while still flashy. Then the expansion was capped off with a bland raid that personally was overshadowed by the dungeons that came with it. Not much content overall and that showed as players tried to busy themselves with content they do not enjoy and instead ended up complaining about things they dont enjoy not being enjoyable. A lot of players are not good with using their brains.

    So personally I would say Cata did a face plant when DS came out. The expansion overall was anemic in content which left a lot of players with little to do including casuals and the no-lifers that call themselves casuals despite spending more time in the game than a lot of raiders. As you can tell one of the goals of MoP was the cater to the later which is why it is such a pain for those who just manage one toon or managed a few in the past two expansions.
    Quote Originally Posted by wooootles View Post
    I'll put it in much simpler reasons:

    -It was too hard
    -ZA and ZG was too hard AND felt too mandatory for many players (includes raiders who need dungeons to cap valor)
    -overall small tier raids (in boss counts)

    Made me actually quit for a couple of months in 4.1... all I could do was random dungeon and random pvp, very painful for someone who logs in a few hours a week and has no solid guild with a purpose. later patches and MoP fixed all that

    doing heroics for raiders was just as mandatory in Cata as it was in WotLK. The only differnce was that raiders did not have to do one ever week and only needed a couple or so depending on how many raid bosses they killed. In WotLK, raiders had to kill two versions of the raid and do a heroic everyday in order to hit cap. If you was a raider or a player who did BC heroics then ZA and ZG was easy. A lot of my groups at day one while solo queuing was hitting three bosses within the timer. ZA five man was quite forgiving to mistakes that would of been a wipe in the original 10 man version that was PuGed by many "casuals" back in BC. ZG just had a punishing first boss for players that stand in bad. Cant fix stupid and after the nerf the fight became such a joke that blood DKs did not need any heals. The groups that had issues I would help including marking CC. The fresh players that did not behave like snotty brats and put in teamwork cleared the heroics.

    During Firelands I played about five to seven hours a week and did not always VP cap. I did also PuG raid Firelands. Yes with a handful of hours and not VP capping every week I was able to see raid content while it was current while not doing scheduled based raiding.

    Personally for the vastly increased VP rewards from the Cata heroics compared to the WotLK heroics the effort was matching the reward. I would rather do seven ZA/ZG than seven severely outgeared WotLK heroics and two versions of a raid in a week just to cap on badges. Cata was the more casual friendly for a group PuG player as myself than WotLK was.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-05-05 at 08:58 AM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Sildor View Post
    - Running the same small amount of 5-mans over and over again, especially in 4.1 but also to extent in 4.3 (how people were cool with this but hate dailies in MoP is beyond me).
    I can tell you why, because it was faster doing 7 5 mans to valor cap every week, than having to grind daylies nowadays in mop.
    In the end the newness value of any content is limited. After that period you set yourself some goals that you want to achive and then you do them. If you want to save up valor for certain items, I for one preferred having only having to grind valor, instead of grinding rep to get access and valor to buy it, where valor takes longer than before to get.

  13. #53
    I think the release of cataclysm was a definite win. I was sooooo tired of doing Wotlk hcs with 5 dps and raiding blindfolded, pretty much the whole expansion was so focused on casuals and for a guy like me who played Hardcore raiding ever since vanilla I even quit after first days of getting to level 80 in wotlk. I was to damn dissapointed specially since the just ruined the whole NAXX feeling. Back to the topic, why I loved catac so much was because I really got the HC feeling back. Meaning you got to perform to be able to get somewhere. I only played casual in 4.2 and 4.3 tho so I can't say much about these patches. In general I think it was a good Expanion but blizzard paniced when all the casuals flamed the forums.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    Matter of opinion. I actually liked the ZA/ZG rehash. Not enough to tide me over until Firelands mind you, but they were fun and challenging.
    No opinion about it, two dungeons with one basically retuned for lvl 90 as a content patch is very lackluster is comparison to most other of WoW's content patches. Yeah, they were decent enough dungeons but by all objective standards 4.1 was a poor excuse for a content patch.

  15. #55
    Bloodsail Admiral Shadee's Avatar
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    Cata actually started out really good, 4.0 was one of the best tiers in the game. When they started making everything easy and releasing rehash content and half raids that is when it started hitting the crapper. Unfortunately mope is continuing the trend and it is only going to get worse because people actually defend it and keep playing.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by readme View Post
    blizzard paniced when all the casuals flamed the forums.
    Had nothing to do with it. Blizzard "panicked" when their data showed problems with participation and completion.

    The forums are a place that Blizzard goes for ideas and feedback, but not a place that Blizzard goes to for votes on how the game should be designed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-05 at 01:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadee View Post
    Cata actually started out really good, 4.0 was one of the best tiers in the game. When they started making everything easy and releasing rehash content and half raids that is when it started hitting the crapper. Unfortunately mope is continuing the trend and it is only going to get worse because people actually defend it and keep playing.
    You can quit! Any time!

  17. #57
    4.0 was one of the best Tiers ever, Dungeon difficulty was perfect.
    4.1 and 4.2 were awful.

  18. #58
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Hum..this focuses a lot and opinions like "Archaeology being retardedly boring".

    And it is beside the point when you talk about too much focus on revamping 1-60. Revamping 1-60 was needed to get flying to Azeroth, sth people DEMANDED for a loooong time.

    What about alt levelling being fairy easy and in MoP not. Does that mean we have a "Why did MoP fail" topic soon?

    The other aspect it focuses on is raiding. Well...500 000 ppl were in DS, so 8.5 million people weren't even affected by this - until raidfinder and THAT actually drew loads of people in.

    I think it "failed" (and only in the raiding aspect up to DS) because after WotLK ppl were used to very easy heroics and pugging raids...and then the initial heroic 5 mans were a proper shock. Before you unleash your "heroics were always faceroll" statements, I bookmarked some thread just for that occasion.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-5-man-heroics.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...m-being-harder
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roics-are-hard!
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Wishblade View Post

    But Cata wasn't a failure, a failure would leave a massive blow to the game
    I would call 25% of your player base leaving to be a pretty massive blow to the game. 9 million people still playing means that the game is still a success but you can hardly call Cata one.
    I'm a Forsaken. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post


    You can quit! Any time!
    Actually you can't really. Maybe if you are a douchebag but when you are commited with a bunch of people that's not always a possibility without screwing ppls over.

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