Criticizing Socialism/Welfare State

[Endus]

And calling social liberalism an iteration of socialism is outrageous.

No, it isn't. That's the "social" part of social liberalism. Unless you're just talking about pure economics and the ownership of the means of production, in which case social liberalism isn't an economic theory to begin with, and none of what you're talking about has anything to do with socialism.

The idea that everyone should have some basic level of support, leading to welfare programs and universal healthcare and the like, that's a socialist concept.

Anyway, social welfare and maintenance programs to aid the downtroden is only socialist if they were conceived from socialist ideals, if they were conceived in order to maximize individual positive freedom they are social liberal.

Again, false dichotomy. The socialist ideal is to maximize individual freedom. That's more or less the entire point of Marx's work, for that matter. Many of the socialist states have ended up not following that ideal, but that doesn't mean the ideal doesn't exist; socialism emerged as a counterpoint to the excesses of capitalism, to create a society where everyone could be free, not just the wealthy. Idealistically, in any case.

Marx's ideas weren't bad. The problem is that the socialist revolution he theorized never happened. Instead, groups espousing socialist ideals led a revolution that put them in power, at which point they became totalitarians in the new bourgeoisie. If a Marxist revolution had truly occurred, there could be no such group; the true socialism is run by the workers, not by "The Party".

The idea that the welfare of the workers is important boils out of these ideas. That's the origin. It's all socialist. Later variations might discard OTHER aspects of other variations of socialism, but that does not mean the origination of the ideas aren't socialist at heart. If your society is supportive of the proletariat, it's socialist to some degree.

[Rukentuts]

This seems like it's just a criticism of people that are too stupid to plan their reproduction.

You mean the ones that seem drastically more likely to use the term "socialist" or "marxist" while simultaneously leeching off the state?

/surprised

[Catta]

You mean the ones that seem drastically more likely to use the term "socialist" or "marxist" while simultaneously leeching off the state?

/surprised

I saw a documentary that followed two american families. One with buttloads of money and one without. And the poor family had had both parents laid off at different times and they were struggling to make ends meet and even then he was yelling "RIGHT!" and the likes at the TV when watching the republican nominees talk.
He wanted limited government "because then there would be other things to take care of them instead like churches". He had just been to a church charity that gives out to the 10 first in line and only maximum of 75 $ a month.
ಠ_ಠ
I wonder if its on youtube.

[theredviola]

An argument based on population control... hmmm, I wish conservatives, like the OP, would just come out and say they want birthing restrictions. It would save a lot of text and time.