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  1. #1

    Blood Dk - Haste Vs ?

    Please keep this constructive. (forgive the bad grammar and Spelling plz ty)

    So i was doing some thinking about Haste as a blood dk (yea kinda like what pallies are doing) and was needing some Arguements and Facts, what not. here we go

    Example:
    Runic Corruption (Talent) + Haste (Gems or Reforge or Enchanted *Dont Think Replace ALL just a "X" Amount*) to increase the rate Runes regen. Providing more Runes at a higher rate of gain (Might it be small or Large) More Death Strikes.

    The idea of this is to find out if 5% haste (we say Max and Min) would provided faster speed for increase Rune Regen.

    Runic Corruption = 100% at a proc of 45%
    Haste = 5% at a Base Min
    Both = 105% = 7.9 Rune speed. (Guess?)

    This is like really rough on the math. but i did replace my Pure Mastery Gems for Pure Haste gems (320 Master To 320 Haste).

    As i sit right now (on my dk) 6.22% = 7.85s (Rune Speed). + 45% Proc of 100% (From Runic Corruption).
    Old stats: Had 163% Mastery went down to 140% Mastery.

    Wouldnt this make Rune Refresh Rate faster for Higher dps/more Death Strikes? Provided on the RC proc. (Yes i know you depend on RNG to be on your side).

    Yes i know there are alot of holes in this Theory, Lots of questions Unanswered. but this is what i am trying to find out.

    I am currently testing this to see what and how well it does. even tho Most of you will be like "Its not worth it" but what "IF" it is. have you done the test itself off paper. Basically i want a arguments, People testing this on there toon, to see. I look at Pally tanks (yes i know lot different type of tanks) but sorta same idea... general.

    Please feel free to comment and Toss out numbers, what not.
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  2. #2
    Haste isn't going to be better then mastery anytime soon, not with how well mastery scales.

    Now, are Haste/Mastery pieces nice? Sure. Always have been though.
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  3. #3
    Yes haste obviously results in more death strikes and more dps. However the more frequent death strikes aren't even close to offsetting the smaller size they get by you dropping all that mastery. The math has been done in several threads on the forum(I'm too tired to redo it atm), and haste is far far worse than even dodge/parry for mitigation purposes.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Yes haste obviously results in more death strikes and more dps. However the more frequent death strikes aren't even close to offsetting the smaller size they get by you dropping all that mastery. The math has been done in several threads on the forum(I'm too tired to redo it atm), and haste is far far worse than even dodge/parry for mitigation purposes.
    Could you link forum post please must of missed it or search just hates me. >.<

    Quote Originally Posted by Murdos View Post
    Haste isn't going to be better then mastery anytime soon, not with how well mastery scales.

    Now, are Haste/Mastery pieces nice? Sure. Always have been though.
    Not looking to see if Haste is better per say, More of a "Pallies do it Why cant i" lol kinda thing if you get what i mean

  5. #5
    Haven't seen one discussing it recently, probably because it's considered so obvious. Do some napkin math and I bet you'll come to the same conclusion.

    Not looking to see if Haste is better per say, More of a "Pallies do it Why cant i" lol kinda thing if you get what i mean
    Because Sanctity of Battle (reduced gcd and cd on all major hp generators) is far cooler/has more impact than a bit of extra rune regen. The gain they get to their gcds/cds from haste is far bigger than the rune regen we get.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Haven't seen one discussing it recently, probably because it's considered so obvious. Do some napkin math and I bet you'll come to the same conclusion.



    Because Sanctity of Battle (reduced gcd and cd on all major hp generators) is far cooler/has more impact than a bit of extra rune regen.
    Basically this, haste doesn't scale nearly as well for Blood dks as it does for prot paladins.

    Is there a certain point where haste would be better then mastery? Absolutely.

    Is it possible/feasible to get to? Probably not.
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  7. #7
    Oh yea like right now i only drop 23% mastery just to see on a dummy.. But i wouldnt really drop Much mastery as i would another stat for example HIt or Exp or Perry/Dodge .. Hard to say when just messing around, trying figure out

  8. #8
    The problem with Blood DKs and haste is that you eventually end up being gcd capped - which means you can replace HS in your rotation but isn't all that much of a dps/hps gain.
    Pallies on the other hand also get reduced gcd, more sacred shield ticks and well generally have a 1:1 linear scaling with haste.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 12:35 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zethras View Post
    Is there a certain point where haste would be better then mastery? Absolutely.
    Is it possible/feasible to get to? Probably not.
    It is if survivability is not your main concern (but this mostly happens when outgearing content anyway)
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  9. #9
    Not looking to see if Haste is better per say, More of a "Pallies do it Why cant i" lol kinda thing if you get what i mean
    That's a fundamentally flawed premise, the idea of a Paladin's haste stacking is that their buff from Shield of the Righteous is a flat damage reduction buff, it does not vary at all except in uptime, and more haste increases it's uptime.

    Haste does increase the theoretical uptime of Blood Shield, as eventually you'll get enough DS/min to where you can always have one ready before the shield drops off. Most DKs are already there on the baseline 20% rune regen from Improved Blood Presence, the issue is that Blood Shield isn't a static damage reduction buff like SHoTR is, it's a variable absorb bubble that's increased by - you guessed it - Our Mastery.

    Ergo the entire premise is dead on the starting line, because it's already verifiably pointless.
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  10. #10
    On my Blood DK, I normally keep Mastery as top priority and then after that, go for haste (also make sure I am close to meeting soft cap). I also invest in trinkets that proc for STR and use the Rune of fallen crusader. Fallen crusader buffs all your str, which also means a buff to parry.

    Though this is obviously not a popular build as it does give overall less mitigation since even though fallen crusader = +15% str/Parry, normal dodge and parry trinkets will always carry more mitigation, however, I feel it is a good trade off, especially since my guild is 10m and runs with 3 heals for all the fights so far, tank DPS becomes more important, even at the cost of some mitigation.

  11. #11
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    Okay, i want to know about haste too, so here are my questions. Haste gives faster rune regen, more DS/RS/HS per time, more hps, more DPS. Also it gives faster autoattack speed - more Scent of Blood and more bloodworms. Atm my DK is at 522/524 iLvl and i want to stay with some haste. Talking about being MT in ToT 12/12 normal.

    1) At what mastery rating stamina becomes more effective (starts giving more bloodshield) ? Im too lazy to do all that math- example: at 16000 mastery stamina becomes more effective and gives more bloodshield

    2) Runic corruption + haste. Haste reduces the RC buff duration, at 34.45% haste (with some procs) it have 1.86 sec duration , rune regen speed is 6.20s. At 0 haste its 2.5sec and rune speed is 8.33s. By doing some easy calculations i see that RC just negates the haste completely making it totally useless with that talent. So- Blood tap or rune empowerment- whats the best for selfheal and whats the best for max DPS? Thinking about keeping BT.

    3) Stats prio for max survivability . Mastery + exp/hit caps > Haste > Sta > dodge/parry > str > crit. I see it like this. But i want to know how this prio will change if i get unbuffed 10%/15%/25% haste, or 150%/175%/200%/225% mastery ( not talking about how, gear- wise, just speaking about math/theory)

    4) Stats prio for max dps ( vengeance = 100k, dont care about survivability at all). exp/hit cap > haste > crit > survivability stats: mastery > sta > str> dodge/parry. Right?

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    Last edited by bagosham; 2013-05-06 at 07:39 AM.

  12. #12
    1) Never really - looking at my current gear the ratio for base shields would be about 1.5 stamina = 1 mastery and since you get more mastery from gemming than stamina that's very far off.
    2) The thing with RC only negates the double dipping factor - each proc still gives 0.3 of each rune. RC is best overall , BT is best for control and RE is only good if you mindlessly mash runes (=> little to no control, overall survivability loss, but possible throughput gain on low haste levels)
    3) That's not the prio for max survivability and anyway 'survivability' in itself is hard to evaluate. And yeah it changes depending on haste levels (mastery levels have little to no effect unless you run into overgearing levels of mastery) since haste softcaps pretty damn fast especially with AMS usage (currently trying haste reforging ~ 18% for a few fights and I find myself being unable to use Blood Runes at times)
    4) Last time I checked crit was slightly better than haste for dps but that's suicidal - you'll probably get more dps through vengeance cheesing with proper tanking gear than trying to tank in crit gear.
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  13. #13
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    Nillo
    1) ty.
    2) I dont "mash" runes ;p . what i do with bloodtap is waiting for 10 stacks and using it 2 times when i have GCD, so i have 2 bloodrunes ready (and 2 bloodrunes are cyclyng together, and ready at the same time - just like with RC talent)
    3) Just tested in LFR. 37.4% raidbuffed haste, i didnt have much problems with not using runes when they were ready.
    4) str gives alot of parry and i didnt have problems on qon/twins/leishen when i was at ~190% mastery with haste reforge, with only 30% avoidance.

    Atm experimenting with some mix of dps set with decent survivability.

    I want math about this RARE thing ( blood + haste) and i want to get maximum from my spec, not just using 3 buttons (ds/hs/rs) with copypasted stats/gems.

    PS2: trinkets. Thinking about Spark of Zandalar (522) + Darkmist Vortex (509, hc. Atm got 483 version). As i remember, around 830 str gives me 1% avoidance, so both trinkets are usefull for tanks. First one gives good amount of haste with very nice avoidance proc, 2nd one gives some avoidance and very nice haste burst. What trinkets will be the best for survivability/max dps and good balance between it?
    Last edited by bagosham; 2013-05-06 at 07:44 AM.

  14. #14
    For a full DPS build, go for straigth haste gemming and reforge hit>expsoft>haste>crit I did that and went from top 100 ranks to top 20 ranks, on normal.
    On heroic, this tactic fails on really hard hitting bosses, there I stay haste gemmed but just go for hit>exp>mastery>haste. This will have a substantial influence on your DPS, and if you know how to handle yourself, you won't see THAT much of a survivability difference.

    This is only really viable on 10-man though, seeing 25s require much more EH and mitigation.

    Be ready for hate from your DPSers when doing 350k+ dps while only dpsing tortos, or 190k while almost solotanking twin consorts.

    But really, for 10-man, as long as everyone is cool with it (rleader+healers) go ahead and try it for a raid, and post your results.

    PS: don't gem str or take str trinkets for DPS tanking. I cannot count how many times I've stated this, but the 8k str is just 16k AP, compared to your 200k+ AP through vengeance it's an almost insignificant increase, secondary stats scale insanely better with that high AP levels.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by bagosham View Post
    Nillo
    2) I dont "mash" runes ;p . what i do with bloodtap is waiting for 10 stacks and using it 2 times when i have GCD, so i have 2 bloodrunes ready (and 2 bloodrunes are cyclyng together, and ready at the same time - just like with RC talent)
    3) Just tested in LFR. 37.4% raidbuffed haste, i didnt have much problems with not using runes when they were ready.
    4) str gives alot of parry and i didnt have problems on qon/twins/leishen when i was at ~190% mastery with haste reforge, with only 30% avoidance.

    PS2: trinkets. Thinking about Spark of Zandalar (522) + Darkmist Vortex (509, hc. Atm got 483 version). As i remember, around 830 str gives me 1% avoidance, so both trinkets are usefull for tanks. First one gives good amount of haste with very nice avoidance proc, 2nd one gives some avoidance and very nice haste burst. What trinkets will be the best for survivability/max dps and good balance between it?
    2) and that's the problem with RE - to get the most out of it you're basically forced to just hit your keys the moment they light up. RC and BT both have their pros and cons so w/e.
    3) I just see myself constantly being unable to use all my abilities when I'm over ~10% haste (as an having to drop HoW -> Crimson Blood -> Heart Strike)
    4) Well 190% mastery is still fairly high and avoidance does next to nothing on those fights anyways (Qon Dot, Fire Twin debuff being unavoidable)

    About trinkets: Haven't figured that out myself yet. Feather would be good ..... if you can make use of the hit (unlikely) and the tank trinkets mostly have mehhh effects. Darkmist is kind of unreliable imo static Strength is mehh just as procced haste is mehhh.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 08:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    For a full DPS build, go for straigth haste gemming and reforge hit>expsoft>haste>crit I did that and went from top 100 ranks to top 20 ranks, on normal.
    Still I think there's more to be gained from cheesing Vengeance (= solo tanking most of the fights) and making use of AMS with an Accuracy > Mastery > Haste priority.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Still I think there's more to be gained from cheesing Vengeance (= solo tanking most of the fights) and making use of AMS with an Accuracy > Mastery > Haste priority.
    If you're going for max dps, why not do both? Cheese vengeance AND stack dps stats/trinkets? If survivability is truly not an issue i don't why not.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    If you're going for max dps, why not do both? Cheese vengeance AND stack dps stats/trinkets? If survivability is truly not an issue i don't why not.
    Exactly what I meant with my post. 200k+ AP from vengeance doesn't come without vengeance cheesing, nite what I said about tanking twins basically solo.

    But yeah, as long as tankdeaths aren't an issue, strive for the highest possible dps.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    200k+ AP from vengeance doesn't come without vengeance cheesing
    Well not in 25H, but point made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    But yeah, as long as tankdeaths aren't an issue, strive for the highest possible dps.
    I don't know about that. There is a point where it makes sense to go all out DPS, but just because tank deaths aren't an issue doesn't mean you should make your healers work harder, especially during progression. Farm content? go for it. Progression? You'd better have a good reason for going to that extra DPS, and personal numbers better not be your answer. Especially if you do it without even asking if your healers were on board. There are times where the extra ~50-60k or so from going into DPS stats can make a difference in terms of RAID success, but in general it's not a significant difference. Now that's from a 25H point of view. 10H doesn't quite have to worry as much, plus their personal DPS is a larger % of the RAID's dps, but just because you're not dying doesn't mean you can't be harder/easier to heal, and just like dmg output that still matters in progression.
    Last edited by Reniat; 2013-05-06 at 09:12 AM.

  19. #19
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    Stupid question- whats "vengeance cheesing" ?
    Changed my stats, now sitting at (raidbuffed):

    760k HP, 40.68% haste (2.55 autoattack, 6.52 rune speed), 7.23% hit, 7.51% exp, 16.75% crit, 160% mastery and around 29% dodge+parry. Bit low mastery i think, will change 2 crit gems (lol) to mastery ones when i go normal mode.

    PS: LFR Horridon http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...B8%D1%83%D1%81 nom nom dps

  20. #20
    i went all out on haste last night, instead of sometimes waiting on runes etc, now, im just smashing whatever as fast as i can lol..

    But yeah, changed to 11 haste gems and reforged EVERYTHING to haste :P

    Quite fun to play tbh and the healers dident feel bad about it at all soo im happy
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