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  1. #21
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagosham View Post
    Stupid question- whats "vengeance cheesing" ?
    Take damage you aren't "supposed" to take. Like standing in fire or stacking debuffs further than needed.

  2. #22
    Vengeance cheesing is anything that increases your vengeance more than is "intended" for that fight, as in anything above what you would normally get from doing the fight normally. This can include one tanking a fight that involves a tank swap (so taking more damage from more stacks, as well never having downtime on vengeance), or it couldnt involve standing in fire for extra vengeance. "standing in fire" can include not minimizing damage where intended as well, for example not moving out of melee for Decap on Lei Shen. You take more damage that way, and need CDs to stay alive, but you get more vengeance that way too.

    All these things make your DPS skyrocket, but they are also more risky survival wise. During progression, unless your raid leader also thinks its a good idea, you probably shouldnt intentionally stand in all the fire. If the DPS is really needed for a REALLY strict dps timer, but that's a different story.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by bagosham View Post
    760k HP, 40.68% haste (2.55 autoattack, 6.52 rune speed), 7.23% hit, 7.51% exp, 16.75% crit, 160% mastery and around 29% dodge+parry. Bit low mastery i think, will change 2 crit gems (lol) to mastery ones when i go normal mode.
    Pretty sure you lose both survivability and dps by going for crit over exp hard cap.
    Armories:
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    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  4. #24
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    *cough* DK tank need only 7.5% cap for his special abilities. Only autoattacks will be parried- yes, even when you hit the boss from the front. According to your armory you have 14.14% exp. WUT?

    Question to all: if i SIT when im tanking the boss to get a critical hit, will i get extra vengeance?
    Last edited by bagosham; 2013-05-06 at 11:31 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by bagosham View Post
    *cough* DK tank need only 7.5% cap for his special abilities. Only autoattacks will be parried- yes, even when you hit the boss from the front.
    7.5% to negate dodges, 15% to negate parries as well; no difference between auto and special attacks. This is basic stuff, not up for debate.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Barael View Post
    7.5% to negate dodges, 15% to negate parries as well; no difference between auto and special attacks. This is basic stuff, not up for debate.
    Death and Rune Strike can't be parried.

    Which still doesn't make crit better than expertise.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Death and Rune Strike can't be parried.

    Which still doesn't make crit better than expertise.
    Death strike can be parried afaik, it just applies the blood shield anyways. Rune strike can't be parried or dodged, meaning that hit/exp is useless for it both above and below 7,5%.

    What changes the value of exp below and above 7,5% is that you don't make any use of exp. past 7,5% when you are behind the boss=you aren't tanking=low vengence=not doing that much damage anyways so the value exp loses past 7,5% is quite small (but since it isn't outright better than our avoidance stats, still significant for your gearing).

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Death strike can be parried afaik, it just applies the blood shield anyways.
    http://www.wowdb.com/spells/49998-death-strike
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
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    Warrior: Irlida

  9. #29
    You are right, I'm being silly:P.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barael View Post
    This is basic stuff, not up for debate.
    Rune Strike
    Strike the target for 160% weapon damage. This attack cannot be dodged, blocked, or parried.

    Death Strike
    ... blablabla minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.

    Heart Strike
    Can be parried, however, it have around 4% overall damage. 7.5% parry the 4% damage done = 0.3% dps loss. Melee autoattacks are around 10% overall damage. 7.5% chance to parry them is 0.75% dmg loss. 0.75+0.3=1.05% damage loss when you are not hard exp capped. Hardcap is 5100, means +2550 rating more. Those 2550 can be extra mastery or extra haste (depends on what you need).

    Lets say you go for dps. Did some calculations, the mistake is maximum 80 rating (was just swapping gear, im too lazy to do all that math).

    At 0% haste your rune regen speed is 8.33s. 2550 haste gives you ~6% haste or 7.85s rune regen. 1-7.85/8.33=5.76% bonus to rune speed.
    At 10% haste (7.58s) 2550 more rating gives you 7.2s. 1-7.2/7.58=5.01% bonus.
    At 15% haste (7.24s) 2550 more rating gives you ~6.9s. 1-6.9/7.24=4.7% bonus.
    At 20% haste (6.94s) 2550 more rating gives you ~6.61s. 1-6.61/6.94=4.75% bonus - probably did some mistake.
    At 25% haste (6.65s) 2550 more rating gives you ~6.37s. 1-6.37/6.65=4.2% bonus

    Overall gain from 2550 haste instead of exp ( hardcap) is 4% to rune speed (in time). Runes are regenerating 4% faster means MORE than 4% dps gain, because you also you are doing faster autoattacks giving you more bloodworms and more rune power from Scent of blood procs.

    Soo... 1.05% dps loss from being softcapped instead of HARD capped, vs 4%+ dps gain from haste. And if you go for mastery instead of haste, it means you need survivability and dont care much about dps. The answer is obvious: blood DK do NOT need exp hard cap in any case - dps or survivability- wise.

    About crit vs exp hardcap - well, as i remember from my calculations for lvl 80, for max dps in blood you need haste and crit around the same percents, when you have alot of haste crit becomes the best dps stat, far away from exp hardcap. Will do some calculations in Simcraft, but im 100% sure about it.

    Questions?
    Last edited by bagosham; 2013-05-06 at 02:14 PM.

  11. #31
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    point being made about death and rune strike is that from a pure defensive standpoint, expertise cap(s) is irrelevant, and hit is basically irrelevant as well. death strike can't be parried, and even if it does miss or get dodged, you still get the blood shield and healing. rune strike can't be dodged or parried (or blocked for that matter). and rune strike contributes to active mitigation by producing death runes through any of that specific tier's talents (blood tap, etc), so the only problem you can have here is with hit rating because you must deal damage to get the effect of this tier's talents.

    tl;dr: expertise does not matter at all from a purely defensive standpoint, for dps it does.

    obviously since this thread has to do mostly with dealing damage as a blood dk, you want to have both hit and expertise, just wanted to clarify on rune/death strikes

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bokonan View Post
    hit is basically irrelevant as well
    Well, missing with bloodboil, icy touch or Outbreak is very, very bad. Especially at pull when you need to gain aggro, get bloodshield and get free bloodboils for extra damage and RP. So im never going to sacrifice the hit cap.

  13. #33
    Napkin maths with false input leads to false results.
    1) You're missing Soul Reaper which is about another 10% of damage done
    2) You think haste affects all damage ? °_° Diseases aren't affected by it and Soul Reaper doesn't gain much/anything from haste either
    Runes are regenerating 4% faster means MORE than 4% dps gain, because you also you are doing faster autoattacks giving you more bloodworms and more rune power from Scent of blood procs.
    3) Nope no double dipping here. Also, you're completely ignoring the diminishing returns from being gcd capped.

    Simcraft still puts expertise above haste/crit and I trust it more than your flawed napkin maths.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 02:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bokonan View Post
    point being made about death and rune strike is that from a pure defensive standpoint, expertise cap(s) is irrelevant, and hit is basically irrelevant as well. death strike can't be parried, and even if it does miss or get dodged, you still get the blood shield and healing. rune strike can't be dodged or parried (or blocked for that matter). and rune strike contributes to active mitigation by producing death runes through any of that specific tier's talents (blood tap, etc), so the only problem you can have here is with hit rating because you must deal damage to get the effect of this tier's talents.
    While only a small effect hit/exp are somewhat relevant from a defensive standpoint since they increase the amount of SoB procs and missing RS is a pain in the ass.
    Armories:
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  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagosham View Post
    Stupid question- whats "vengeance cheesing" ?
    Its where you take MORE damage in a fight in order to increase your vengeance level, commonly through solo tanking fights that could/should be 2 tanked (things like taking 50% more Horridon puncture stacks, or 4 stacks of Talon Rake on Ji'kun, ect). Also less commonly is standing in various fires (directly hit from Rockfalls in Tortos, standing in sand traps on Horridon/Council, eating Lightning Storm damage on Jin'rokh, ect). Anything that causes more damage to you while tanking then normal strategies recommend.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Also less commonly is standing in various fires - directly hit from Rockfalls in Tortos
    1 of them can safely be avoided with AMS (since stomp is about a 45 sec timer this works perfectly) - add IBF so you can soak 3-4 add army and pray for as many of them to land on you as possible for a 200k+ vengeance army. This is on heroic with the crystal shield of course.
    Out of the others I wouldn't try any since they can often end up being fatal (especially the nasty stuff on Jin'Rokh and Horridon)
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  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    For mitigation, I would say that the more magical damage you take compared to physical damage, the greater value Haste has (I.E if you take 80% magical damage in a fight, and only 20% physical damage, Haste would be wieghted much more for that particular fight then Mastery. On Lei Shie, where its more 90% magical, 10% physical, mastery/dodge/parry is all but useless compared to the value of haste.)
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    For mitigation, I would say that the more magical damage you take compared to physical damage, the greater value Haste has

    I would say for Lei Shi, Sta>Haste>Exp/Hit caps>everything else.

    Nillo- you trust Simcraft, fine. I will test Crit-vs-Haste-vs-Exp hardcap for myself with various amounts of vengeance to see the dps change. As i said earlier, im too lazy for all this math, but im sure that 2550 crit or haste gives more dps than 1.05 or 1.2% that you lose from not being hardcapped. And for myself, i would sacrifice 1-1.2% dps for having extra haste or mastery for more selfhealing just because i like it.

    PS: i have a bad feeling that Simcraft doesnt care much about how far are you from exp Hardcap and just giving you a number ( stat weight) that wont change at all until you get the hardcap, - or i said something stupid?
    Last edited by bagosham; 2013-05-06 at 03:37 PM.

  18. #38
    Nillo-
    I checked your profile and some of your logs and it's really impressive, I am not anywhere near your gear level(513, 6/12 ToT Normal) but maybe you can help me understand your build?

    What is your stat priority? I see that your priority when reforging is Haste > Mastery but you gem for mastery.
    My guild group suffers from low dps some times but I don't remember the last time we wiped thanks to tank deaths so, do you think that kind of build would also work on lower gear lvls? I have dps tier gloves and pants so I thought of using them on a build similar to yours.

    Thanks!

  19. #39
    Did you make a second account just to ask this question? °_°

    And nah don't read too much into my current reforging I'm just fooling around.
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Did you make a second account just to ask this question? °_°

    And nah don't read too much into my current reforging I'm just fooling around.
    Nope, I am not bagosham lol, I rarely post here but I got curious about your build. So you don't use a haste build for progression?

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