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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Maybe if you are equally geared and skilled at a warlock.
    Can't really agree. Of course it depends on the individual guild's situation but specifically this tier there is no real doubt in my mind that more than enough would take a slightly worse lock over a warrior any day. In the end you can always stack a fuckton of them and still have a decent raidcomp while I would not necessarily say that in the case of warriors.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-05-24 at 03:42 AM.

  2. #202
    Stood in the Fire Bombino's Avatar
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    I wouldn't fret, can't do without skull banner/demo banner/rallying cry

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Heptium View Post
    Let me actually tell people why other Warriors are frustrated.
    "Why bring a Prot Warrior when you can bring a Prot Paladin?"
    "Why bring a Arms Warrior to an RBG when you can have a Frost DK?"
    "Why bring a Fury Warrior to raiding when you can have a Rogue or DK?"
    Middle of the pack isn't bad, but it just means.. Well.. We just don't have a lot to the table compared to other classes.

    Personally, I feel perfectly okay with everything. I like Demo Banner, Skull Banner and Rallying Cry for my support cool-downs.
    Personally, I think it's worse for Prot Warrs. Most guilds want at least one Fury Warrior, perhaps two.
    This post made me laugh (but not in the bad way).

    As a rogue rerolled to warr, these are excatly the same complaints the rogue community had at MoP start. Rogue's weren't bad per se - just they didn't have a high damage or great utility to justify their presence, especially in a 10 man raid.

    Rogues got damge buffs and Smoke bomb as raid CD, and now they are perfectly fine.

    I agree with you - being middle-pack as damage done to me is fine; the utility we bring (banners, cry, shattering) is great to me. I'm loving the class despite fury rotatioon being a bit too much "whack-a-mole" (but maybe i'm just too used to my rogue which i have played for 8 years or so).

  4. #204
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Can't really agree. Of course it depends on the individual guild's situation but specifically this tier there is no real doubt in my mind that more than enough would take a slightly worse lock over a warrior any day. In the end you can always stack a fuckton of them and still have a decent raidcomp while I would not necessarily say that in the case of warriors.
    1.) Gear division.

    2.) Sb/Db

    3.) Burst AoE. Warriors are probably the best in the game.

    4.) Great interrupts.

    5.) Unless you are a top 20 guild, you probably don't have much choice. Maybe it's just because I'm a good warrior and DK, but I'm almost never beaten on any fight (that isn't something gimicky like dark animus/prim etc). And in a case like this player skill matters far more.

    If I were raiding for world ranks, I'd have several classes at max level and using whichever was most beneficial to the raid team. But I think in general we're talking about the 100-3000 rank guilds here, where skill, gear divison, and what-can-you-get + liking the player and finding a consistent one is more important.

    If we are talking top guilds, well for one it doesn't matter. The race to world first is over.

    As always happens with these types of discussions, people are vague about exactly what they mean and at what level things are ok, and that's a major part of contention. Warriors ARE in a rather bad spot, if everything else were equal. We have terrible magic mitigation, a bad lineup of available defensive cooldowns, and we aren't the best melee DPS. But again, thing's aren't often perfect. Finding a geared/skilled mage is hard. Either they are good, in which case they are easily able to find a higher end guild, or they are bad or flaky.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    This post made me laugh (but not in the bad way).

    As a rogue rerolled to warr, these are excatly the same complaints the rogue community had at MoP start. Rogue's weren't bad per se - just they didn't have a high damage or great utility to justify their presence, especially in a 10 man raid.

    Rogues got damge buffs and Smoke bomb as raid CD, and now they are perfectly fine.

    I agree with you - being middle-pack as damage done to me is fine; the utility we bring (banners, cry, shattering) is great to me. I'm loving the class despite fury rotatioon being a bit too much "whack-a-mole" (but maybe i'm just too used to my rogue which i have played for 8 years or so).
    In my opinion, fury rotation/playstyle is much more fun/dynamic/involved than assassination rogues. Boy that is boring, probably as simple as a frost dk two button rotation.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Crushima View Post
    In my opinion, fury rotation/playstyle is much more fun/dynamic/involved than assassination rogues. Boy that is boring, probably as simple as a frost dk two button rotation.
    Now now, frost dks actually use 3 buttons!

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Crushima View Post
    In my opinion, fury rotation/playstyle is much more fun/dynamic/involved than assassination rogues. Boy that is boring, probably as simple as a frost dk two button rotation.
    I agree on dynamic and involved, but fun is a presonal opinion. Though i also agree on rogue rotations (yeah, all specs) being boring - Combat looks more complicated but in fact it's only more spammy. A good median between the two things should be more appealing.

    It can be easily only due to habits and due to slightly low item level, but i feel useless when things don't proc and overhelmed when all procs at the same time. Arms looked more solid as a spec/cycle, but it seems to fall behind fury the more gear you get.

    All of the above assuming that i don't have a a huge experience with warriors, i just try to get the best out of my char.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    This post made me laugh (but not in the bad way).

    As a rogue rerolled to warr, these are excatly the same complaints the rogue community had at MoP start. Rogue's weren't bad per se - just they didn't have a high damage or great utility to justify their presence, especially in a 10 man raid.

    Rogues got damge buffs and Smoke bomb as raid CD, and now they are perfectly fine.

    I agree with you - being middle-pack as damage done to me is fine; the utility we bring (banners, cry, shattering) is great to me. I'm loving the class despite fury rotatioon being a bit too much "whack-a-mole" (but maybe i'm just too used to my rogue which i have played for 8 years or so).
    Fury is whack-a-mole? That's the first time I've heard that, and frankly I flat out disagree.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Adudu View Post
    Now now, frost dks actually use 3 buttons!
    As opposed to the 4 fury uses?

    Or are you going to include colossus smash, whirlwind, berserker rage, etc., ? Because if you are then you should include plague strike, outbreak, DnD, blood tap. etc.

    It is always fashionable to denigrate other specs as simple while exaggerating the complexity of your own. Either way, no spec is truly difficult to play, but almost all of them are difficult to obtain top 100 WoL rankings with.

  10. #210
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    CS is a vital part of our rotation. There is not really a "difficult" spec to play, but the difference for fury's best parses is greater than most other specs indicating there is a greater skill gap, which indicates it is generally more complex.

    We do not have many buttons to push, but the timing is the crucial part. We have our CDs (which every class does, so we will exclude them). Lets focus single target. We have CS, BT, RB, HS, and WS. I count 5. Since we can't just spam when they proc and get optimal dps, timing is very crucial and each of the abilities is very situational and requires judgement. I am no DK expert. Can you please explain how it is harder than fury's? Do you use DnD on CD? Like I said, I am no DK expert, but if you jump into our forum and give bad info (fury using 4 buttons), don't expect to get away with it.

  11. #211
    Likewise, I am not a warrior expert, but I realize that timing and planning ahead to use resources during small windows is required. In comparison, the complexity with DKs is all rune management, and split second decisions rather than planning ahead. I am sure you don't appreciate others downplaying the complexity of your spec, and neither do I.

    As for the spread in parses, at the top 200 level I think you can assume everyone (unless its a spec that no one plays) is highly skilled, and that variation there is more a factor of RNG than anything else.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    As for the spread in parses, at the top 200 level I think you can assume everyone (unless its a spec that no one plays) is highly skilled, and that variation there is more a factor of RNG than anything else.
    Depends on the approach of the fight. If you can get away "scumbagging" (ie your dps is not required to cover the basic fight mechanics) you can easily get great differences. Most popular example nowadays is Tortos heroic, if you tend to kite the bats and somebody gets the chance to spread their dots... they can get insane numbers (close to 1M) while the rank 200 guy with 225k dps only what he was told, hitting boss/turtles.

    Add that some bosses haven't been killed that often and there are maybe 204 logs in total even somebody who dies right after the start (but isn't necessary for the fight) can rank. Actually i managed that some month ago with arms on a heroic fight and ranked top 50 with 10k dps

  13. #213
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    Warriors are probably one of the hardest melee specs to play optimally. If you look at raidbots and go to this chart of standard deviation:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...11100000000000

    Sub doesn't really count as no one plays it, but out of the commonly used melee specs, if you take a look at only the top 100 parses in a 25H raiding environment, the greatest amount of variability comes from fury. That means that the difference between the #1 and #100 parse is larger than other specs, which generally indicates a class that is harder to "master."

    10H doesn't show the same, likely because there's no reason to bring a fury warrior in a 10 man unless said fury warrior is extremely good. There are a lot of very good 25H guilds that drag along a crappy fury warrior, probably for skull banner since prot warriors aren't that great either. This shows up in the amount of samples, as Fury is the #5 spec represented in a 25H guild, but is #9 for 10H. However, taking a look at fury specscores, in a 25H fury is #12, but on 10H fury is #11.

    When taking a look at every spec:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...11100000000000

    Fury, while at the same time not doing exceptional damage, still has a lot of variability in parses. Warlocks have high amounts of variability, but that's mostly because the very very top end of warlocks are doing 300-400k on some fights, when the average top warlock only does 180-200k.

    This can be shown via:
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...11100000000000
    (Notice how frost DK's are technically higher in the "MAX" dps category, but have the lowest amounts of variability. This is a strong indicator for a spec that's easy to play.)

    *Shrug* Warriors don't really need a dps buff, warlocks/rogues/mages/unholy dks just need a slight dps/utility nerf.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 06:38 PM ----------



    Every spec there is over some type of hit/exp cap, and sure, DW classes gain minimal benefits from overcap hit, but even if you reforged 4k of useless stats into useful stats for each profile, it's not going to bump the dps for each spec more than 15k. A point of crit is worth 3.5~ dps for fury, so even if all the overcap hit/expertise was dumped into crit (highly unlikely), that's around 4k rating, which ends up being a 14k dps increase.

    However, here is the evidence that Fury was outscaling most specs before including RPPM metas/trinkets/etc.

    http://i.imgur.com/z0Ti1Ss.png

    All I did was run the BIS T14H lists, which naturally include no RPPM metas/trinkets, scaled up to 600 ilevel, and then ran them against the T15H list. The numbers I had run before had fury even higher because they were done before the execute nerf.

    It's not that fury was nerfed too harshly, it's just that fury doesn't scale with RPPM nearly as well as other specs do.
    Collision is smarter than me and can sum it up better. Thanks.

    Edit: Every class has number padders, so your statement bears no merit as each class will have proportionally the same number of number padders more than likely. Also, the deviation for your beloved frost is the lowest indicating it is the easiest of the represented classes to play optimally.
    Last edited by sjsctt; 2013-05-24 at 06:42 PM.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    But I think in general we're talking about the 100-3000 rank guilds here, where skill, gear divison, and what-can-you-get + liking the player and finding a consistent one is more important.
    Unless I misunderstood your previous post you implied that it would be as a warrior just as easy to secure a raidspot as a warlock which is the point I cannot agree with even if we are talking only about the 100+ ranking scale as a lot of those are still aiming for a lei shen hc kill. Warlocks have just been very strong on pretty much every encounter I would consider "above" the others - read council, durumu, animus and Lei Shen and at any given day you would rather stack warlocks than stack warriors so it seems entirely out of question which one is the class to have an easier time finding a raid with even if your "warlock skills" are slightly inferior.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    Likewise, I am not a warrior expert, but I realize that timing and planning ahead to use resources during small windows is required. In comparison, the complexity with DKs is all rune management, and split second decisions rather than planning ahead. I am sure you don't appreciate others downplaying the complexity of your spec, and neither do I.

    As for the spread in parses, at the top 200 level I think you can assume everyone (unless its a spec that no one plays) is highly skilled, and that variation there is more a factor of RNG than anything else.
    I recall reading a DK thread on Elitist Jerks recently that stated quite clearly that frost rune management isn't really crucial anymore, holding abilities and timing procs will generally result in a dps loss. You also have 3 key rotational keys, obliterate, rune strike and howling blast. Rotational keys for warrior include CS,BT,RB,WS, WW(if TG), HS, berserker rage, heroic leap. I do play a DK both as frost and unholy and have run it through the entirety of ToT. I can honestly say that in terms of difficulty there's frost<<<<Unholy<<Fury. The simplicity of doing good numbers as frost is so much easier than fury that there's really no comparison.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-24 at 07:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post

    Rogues got damge buffs and Smoke bomb as raid CD, and now they are perfectly fine.
    If being by far the #1 melee in game is "perfectly fine" then I'd like for warriors to be perfectly fine instead of where we are at. But quite frankly there's a few issues at the moment, firstly how UEVLS interacts with certain classes, secondly how far ahead of others mages rogues and warlocks are. If those 3 are reined in and kept in line with #4 then you've basically halved the difference between the best and worst spec. The difference between the top 3 and the rest is just massive.

  16. #216
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    Unless I misunderstood your previous post you implied that it would be as a warrior just as easy to secure a raidspot as a warlock which is the point I cannot agree with even if we are talking only about the 100+ ranking scale as a lot of those are still aiming for a lei shen hc kill. Warlocks have just been very strong on pretty much every encounter I would consider "above" the others - read council, durumu, animus and Lei Shen and at any given day you would rather stack warlocks than stack warriors so it seems entirely out of question which one is the class to have an easier time finding a raid with even if your "warlock skills" are slightly inferior.
    I'm saying it would be just as easy for ME as a warrior to get a raid spot. YMMV.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    I'm saying it would be just as easy for ME as a warrior to get a raid spot. YMMV.
    Mhh k whatever not really relevant anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adudu View Post
    If being by far the #1 melee in game is "perfectly fine" then I'd like for warriors to be perfectly fine instead of where we are at.
    well who wouldn't lol

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by sjsctt View Post
    Also, the deviation for your beloved frost is the lowest indicating it is the easiest of the represented classes to play optimally.
    This notion that variability between #1 and #200 indicates the difficulty of a spec is laughable at best. One can execute a given fight absolutely flawlessly, and due to RNG fail to rank. Do you really believe the the difference in player skill of the #1 parse and the #200 parse is anything but negligible, when you have thousands and thousands of people playing fury? The "best" player in the world may post a #5 overall parse one week and then fail to parse completely the next. Did they suddenly forget how to play? You play a spec that is 100% dependent upon crit rating and enrage uptime, yet you really think you can extrapolate a large SD in parsing to spec difficulty?!

  19. #219
    thank god warriors have some great raid cooldowns, otherwise no serious hardcore progression guild would even bother bringing one in any heroic encounter. And it's less because their damage is meh compared to DKs/rogues/enh shamans but more that they are just so freaking soft in general. It's like any boss ability targetting a warrior does like 50% more damage than to any other melee class. Needless to say, we just downed ra-den and we didn't bother bringing a warrior at all, he would have probably died somewhere during P1 I suppose.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    This notion that variability between #1 and #200 indicates the difficulty of a spec is laughable at best. One can execute a given fight absolutely flawlessly, and due to RNG fail to rank. Do you really believe the the difference in player skill of the #1 parse and the #200 parse is anything but negligible, when you have thousands and thousands of people playing fury? The "best" player in the world may post a #5 overall parse one week and then fail to parse completely the next. Did they suddenly forget how to play? You play a spec that is 100% dependent upon crit rating and enrage uptime, yet you really think you can extrapolate a large SD in parsing to spec difficulty?!
    Oh please this RNG logic about ranking is even more laughable. Why do u think that some warriors consistently are being seen in the top 20s? Getting great RNG over and over again doesn't sound very RNGish to me. Ranking is about : Execution, fight length, execution, not having to deal with shitjobs, gear, then perhaps some RNG.

    [EDIT] Hmm but I can agree to some length that in DS, RNG was a bigger factor with Gurthalak.

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