5.3 will see fury warriors going bottom of the meter?

[quiks]

I don't mean to come off as rude which I know I do.
If you want to parse, that's cool, but don't try to use that as a reason to say we're fine.
What confuses me moreso is that only a few posts earlier you had a good post that stated the opposite of the log post. Maybe I'm offbase in this.

Nearly all of those logs are padding or scumbagging your personal dps where it doesn't need to be. You're playing for yourself, not the raid. Bladestorm has no place in this tier where it's required (except maybe horridon). You're putting damage where it doesn't need to be. You're essentially robbing other players reducing your overall raid dps or causing certain targets to live longer than they should
Anyone can top meters by aoeing everything possible. It doesn't mean we're in a good place or that you should be doing this. You're a big numbers prioritizer, not a team player.

Twins - bladestorming on the p2 adds is the stupidest thing ever. Those get passively aoe'd by warlocks and other classes. you should be maximizing your damage on the boss to shorten the final phase as much as possible. Cooldowning those adds is such a waste.

Maegara - shockwave is a far better ability for sake of controlling adds, but regardless we do good on this fight due to many things.

Lei Shen - How are your balls not being overkilled by everyone else. I can't see a reason to have bladestorm unless there's something funky going on with your ball lightning. They should be dying in 2-3 seconds every time.

Dark Animus - Massive Anima Golem 14162971 19.3 % - are we serious here?

Tortos - Vampiric Cave Bat 63034285 47.1 % - some damage on the bats is cool, but you're overkilling them.

Just look at it all. It's all aoeing. Some of it is warranted, but you're far too in love with bladestorm.

You can't say that being a good warrior is aoeing because that's all that's being showed in those logs. Aoeing isn't difficult nor does it make you a good warrior. It's just selfish play for meters.

[CollisionTD]

Well, I know that Colision said awhile back, around the time 5.2 released that when he was working with simcraft he bumped up the item levels to about 600 of all the specs and he said Fire and Fury were about 50k ahead of everyone else.

Warrior scaling is very good. I'm not so sure that Rogues beat it. Maybe Subtlety but no one plays that right now anyway. I don't think that any other melee spec scales as well as we do, Affliction and Fire are close.

Warriors didn't scale particularly well Cataclysm, but we do scale really well this expansion because of the value of Crit and Mastery at higher Crit levels.

That said, OP trinkets, and different raid mechanics are putting some classes well ahead of us.

Yeah, that sim was done before RPPM trinkets/legendary meta/execute nerf and such. I'd have to re-run another to see if that still holds up, as the execute nerf hurt a little in the scaling department, and the legendary meta/RPPM trinkets will not help us out as much as other specs/classes. A huge reason fury held up was because a lot of specs started to become GCD-locked, while fury almost always has a way to burn excess resources.

But certainly, pre 5.2 fury/fire outscaled the shit out of every spec when comparing 480 ilevel vs 600 ilevel. But that's why they do spec balancing every patch.

As far as fury not getting raid-spots, It's not because of damage done, or general raid-utility. At the cutting-edge of progression, where minimizing damage taken and maximizing damage done are top priorities, fury only holds up on the damage done part, and falls behind on damage taken. On Iron Qon 10H, the damage taken difference between me and a rogue was straight up ridiculous. I took 4 million more damage than the rogue without picking up a single stack of any line debuff, while he picked up 3 stacks overall, and the unleashed flame left me dangerously close to death far too often. I swapped to d. stance for the shittastic 15% mitigation it gives once or twice as well.

Cutting-edge progression generally means healing an encounter with less healers than is required, which means that damage reduction is huge. Warriors just don't have the ability to reduce personal damage taken enough, and warriors are given incentives to take more damage with berserker stance which doesn't help out much.

[Chapterhouse]

Rogues do good this tier, yes, but there are few fights where a well geared, and well played warrior can't compete for the top spot.

I'll link my guilds logs from this weak if you want to look for yourself. (Asendance World Rank 17)

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qngmj0macr1saopm/ http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0xwlkkplcdymi/ http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-m6uaf4w8m47k00yr/ Those are the full logs from this week.

Jin'rokh: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...e/?s=574&e=808
Horridon: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=1595&e=2184
Council: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=2724&e=3167
Tortos: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=3641&e=4043
Magaera: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=4735&e=5179
Dark Animus: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qn...=13126&e=13482
Twins: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qn...=16047&e=16604
Lei Shen: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-m6...?s=3377&e=4035

(The fights I didn't link our logger wasn't in on).

Now point me to any fight where a Good warrior can't hold his ground.

I'm on board with Quiks here; Bladestorming everything in sight on farm doesn't make a spec competitive nor does it make you a standout Fury Warrior. The only fight on this list that I ran Bladestorm on was Lei Shen because we didn't have a Brewmaster tank to carry the Ball Lightning damage. I don't understand why you linked a Dark Animus parse were you were blatantly padding with two meat-cleaver stacks on Massive Anima Golems (which shouldn't be touched). Bladestorm on Twin Consorts makes no sense and using that talent on Council is something that would have never happened during progression.

I understand that your guild has cleared the content and you're probably having fun trying to rank on those farm fights but linking parses with a bunch of unnecessary AoE/padding doesn't mean much for the average DPS Warrior in the middle of progression.

[Warriorsarri]

But anyfight that doesn't involve aoe, dk, rogues are always way ahead. Especially when progression and you see warriors near bottom of meters after 3 attempts, you swap them out with classes that can do higher. I've sat out for more progression this tier than last. We do good on twins, but the logs I looked at on our attempts, we are way behind other classes on single target but way ahead on lurkers.

I'm really tired of you guys saying we're fine. I was fine in t14 was able to be competitive with my guild mates, that is no longer true this tier.

On fights with AoE, why wouldn't you let the class with the best AoE do the job?

For Tortos and Magaera the combination of Bladestorm and our normal AoE rotation leads to us being the single best class at doing that job. Only other classes that get close is WW monks on Tortos and Elemental Shamans for Magaera.

On Progression your guilds should always look at each class to see what their strengths and weaknesses are. While Rogues and Dks can beat us on single target, we can make them weep when we get to AoE. For that reason most guilds bring atleast one warrior for each fight that involves any sort of Multi target, we're just that good on it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 01:03 PM ----------

Nearly all of those logs are padding or scumbagging your personal dps where it doesn't need to be. You're playing for yourself, not the raid. Bladestorm has no place in this tier where it's required (except maybe horridon). You're putting damage where it doesn't need to be. You're essentially robbing other players reducing your overall raid dps or causing certain targets to live longer than they should
Anyone can top meters by aoeing everything possible. It doesn't mean we're in a good place or that you should be doing this. You're a big numbers prioritizer, not a team player.

Different guilds use different tactics. (Also that's not me, you'll see me playing on my shaman at the bottom of the list)

Our guild heavily use our warriors, WW monk and tanks when it comes to AoE for each fight, and leave the Single target for range Rogues and Dks.

Our tactic for council during progress was to get him to 10%, then wait for the adds to spawn, then have the tank slowly take them down with the insane vengeance he got from it. Now a days we just leave them up for padding, which he took good advantage off.

On Tortos we had our two warriors, our WW monk and our tank slowly take the bats down, while the range killed Turtles.

Same goes for Magaera, we had our two warriors, WW monk and a Ele take the adds down.

I actually did't look where he got his damage from when I linked DA, now that you've pointed that out, yes, that is some big scum bagging and Padding. He was playing for logs rather then the good of the raid.

We have never had any issues with Twins, so we've made it into a sort of internal game who can kill the adds the fastest, meaning you can't get a fair view of what's going on.

On Lei Shen, why would you not spec and use the single best AoE burst attack in the game? Blade storm is so freaking strong on that fight that I can't even put it to words. We lose a neglect able amount of single target damage, but we get a lot of AoE, so some others who lose more by AoEing can focus more on the boss.


The Tactics we used during progress relayed heavily on our AoE capability, it may seem like it's padding for someone who's used to other strategys, where you may use other classes, such as Shamans, warlocks or Dks to get those jobs done.

Also, I'd like to add that now that I look over the logs I linked they might contradict what I said in my earlier post. My co-warrior padded more then I'd like to see. The points I said still stands tho. If you look at the overall package, instead of just our patchwerk deeps, we are doing quite alright.

[Gondlem]

If you want to use parses to talk about viability, you should be looking at the key targets - the ones that have to die to complete the fight. Not random targets that anyone can kill that you can pad by pooling resources or using AoE cooldowns. If you are #1 on Ball Lightning on Lei Shen you might be high on the DPS meter overall, but if you weren't there someone else would kill those Ball Lightning just as easily. If you're #1 on the boss, that demonstrates viability, since everyone should be trying to kill that target. It's the equivalent of sitting on Horridon the entire fight, finishing on top and then claiming whatever spec you play is the best DPS spec.

Anyway, warrior damage is going to be pretty mediocre in 5.3. Warriors do alright when there's raid damage going on because berserker stance is great, but on fights where you can't really take advantage of stance switching, warriors will be fairly low. That said, it's still a good spec to have in the raid because of banners, shatter and rallying cry. Not many (if any) DPS specs bring that much utility.

[Stilllogicz]

Yeah, that sim was done before RPPM trinkets/legendary meta/execute nerf and such. I'd have to re-run another to see if that still holds up, as the execute nerf hurt a little in the scaling department, and the legendary meta/RPPM trinkets will not help us out as much as other specs/classes. A huge reason fury held up was because a lot of specs started to become GCD-locked, while fury almost always has a way to burn excess resources.

But certainly, pre 5.2 fury/fire outscaled the shit out of every spec when comparing 480 ilevel vs 600 ilevel. But that's why they do spec balancing every patch.

Collision, I'd be very interested in your results on this matter. Please let us know how this turns out.

[cFortyfive]

Well, I know that Colision said awhile back, around the time 5.2 released that when he was working with simcraft he bumped up the item levels to about 600 of all the specs and he said Fire and Fury were about 50k ahead of everyone else.

Warrior scaling is very good. I'm not so sure that Rogues beat it. Maybe Subtlety but no one plays that right now anyway. I don't think that any other melee spec scales as well as we do, Affliction and Fire are close.

Well if someone is willing to crunch the numbers with preferably relevant gear on that be my guest. In current simcrafts and in logs I have a hard time finding evidence suggesting that warrior scaling is way ahead especially with rppm in the picture.

[Nitwit]

Yeah, that sim was done before RPPM trinkets/legendary meta/execute nerf and such. I'd have to re-run another to see if that still holds up, as the execute nerf hurt a little in the scaling department, and the legendary meta/RPPM trinkets will not help us out as much as other specs/classes. A huge reason fury held up was because a lot of specs started to become GCD-locked, while fury almost always has a way to burn excess resources.

But certainly, pre 5.2 fury/fire outscaled the shit out of every spec when comparing 480 ilevel vs 600 ilevel. But that's why they do spec balancing every patch.

How extensively did you re-optimize each profile post-ilvl jump last time around?

I did a quick and dirty run with raid_t15h.simc and global_item_upgrade_level=15 to get all of the profiles up to ~600 ilvl, and here's how things stood:

http://dread-gaming.com/simc/raid_mop_18.html

(live settings - can't get raid_t15h.simc to run with ptr=1)

... but there are some obvious issues with that. Every profile is quite a bit over the hit/exp caps, so dual-wield profiles will benefit from this extra ilvl more than 2h and caster profiles unless I go in and fake-reforge every profile back down to their caps. Additionally, the stat priority that feral druid and windwalker monk profiles established for rune of reorigination procs was ruined by the scaling (both now have haste > mastery, whereas before they had mastery > haste) - likely because the stats they have from gems aren't scaling along with the stats on the rest of their gear. Again, fake reforging would be necessary to correct this imbalance.

I'm sure those aren't the only inefficiencies introduced by this leap, but I'm not a qualified expert for every spec in the game, so those are the biggest changes that stand out. Still, I'm not sure that fury could optimize itself enough to close the ~40% gap between it and fire (before re-optimizing the fire profile, mind you), and I'm not convinced that Fury was nerfed enough to explain away that gap if what you guys are saying about fury scaling is true.

[CollisionTD]

Warriors are probably one of the hardest melee specs to play optimally. If you look at raidbots and go to this chart of standard deviation:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...11100000000000

Sub doesn't really count as no one plays it, but out of the commonly used melee specs, if you take a look at only the top 100 parses in a 25H raiding environment, the greatest amount of variability comes from fury. That means that the difference between the #1 and #100 parse is larger than other specs, which generally indicates a class that is harder to "master."

10H doesn't show the same, likely because there's no reason to bring a fury warrior in a 10 man unless said fury warrior is extremely good. There are a lot of very good 25H guilds that drag along a crappy fury warrior, probably for skull banner since prot warriors aren't that great either. This shows up in the amount of samples, as Fury is the #5 spec represented in a 25H guild, but is #9 for 10H. However, taking a look at fury specscores, in a 25H fury is #12, but on 10H fury is #11.

When taking a look at every spec:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...11100000000000

Fury, while at the same time not doing exceptional damage, still has a lot of variability in parses. Warlocks have high amounts of variability, but that's mostly because the very very top end of warlocks are doing 300-400k on some fights, when the average top warlock only does 180-200k.

This can be shown via:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...11100000000000
(Notice how frost DK's are technically higher in the "MAX" dps category, but have the lowest amounts of variability. This is a strong indicator for a spec that's easy to play.)

*Shrug* Warriors don't really need a dps buff, warlocks/rogues/mages/unholy dks just need a slight dps/utility nerf.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 06:38 PM ----------

How extensively did you re-optimize each profile post-ilvl jump last time around?

I did a quick and dirty run with raid_t15h.simc and global_item_upgrade_level=15 to get all of the profiles up to ~600 ilvl, and here's how things stood:

http://dread-gaming.com/simc/raid_mop_18.html

(live settings - can't get raid_t15h.simc to run with ptr=1)

... but there are some obvious issues with that. Every profile is quite a bit over the hit/exp caps, so dual-wield profiles will benefit from this extra ilvl more than 2h and caster profiles unless I go in and fake-reforge every profile back down to their caps. Additionally, the stat priority that feral druid and windwalker monk profiles established for rune of reorigination procs was ruined by the scaling (both now have haste > mastery, whereas before they had mastery > haste) - likely because the stats they have from gems aren't scaling along with the stats on the rest of their gear. Again, fake reforging would be necessary to correct this imbalance.

I'm sure those aren't the only inefficiencies introduced by this leap, but I'm not a qualified expert for every spec in the game, so those are the biggest changes that stand out. Still, I'm not sure that fury could optimize itself enough to close the ~40% gap between it and fire (before re-optimizing the fire profile, mind you), and I'm not convinced that Fury was nerfed enough to explain away that gap if what you guys are saying about fury scaling is true.

Every spec there is over some type of hit/exp cap, and sure, DW classes gain minimal benefits from overcap hit, but even if you reforged 4k of useless stats into useful stats for each profile, it's not going to bump the dps for each spec more than 15k. A point of crit is worth 3.5~ dps for fury, so even if all the overcap hit/expertise was dumped into crit (highly unlikely), that's around 4k rating, which ends up being a 14k dps increase.

However, here is the evidence that Fury was outscaling most specs before including RPPM metas/trinkets/etc.

http://i.imgur.com/z0Ti1Ss.png

All I did was run the BIS T14H lists, which naturally include no RPPM metas/trinkets, scaled up to 600 ilevel, and then ran them against the T15H list. The numbers I had run before had fury even higher because they were done before the execute nerf.

It's not that fury was nerfed too harshly, it's just that fury doesn't scale with RPPM nearly as well as other specs do.

[Mataru]

Very insightful post Collision. I tried to measure scaling differences by comparing different classes' stat weighs in simcraft but it seems pretty inelegant and is probably hugely inaccurate since stat weighs fluctuate a lot with gear level, so thanks for summing it up in a much more elegant and comprehensive way. I always thought fury scaled exceptionally well due to how the enrage/raging blow mechanic works and our ability to keep dumping massive amounts of resources even when GCD capped. From that last simcraft comparison it seems like the rppm stuff hardly affects our scaling at all while it has massive implications for a lot of specs (over 100k dps difference). I suppose this can't be assumed to be totally accurate but it certainly shows a clear trend.

[Woceip]

I'm not trying to diminish the impact GC has had on this game, he's a brilliant man, but it's time to bring someone else in to make balancing decisions. He's just not getting it done.

You seem to be deluded on a single point, so I'm gonna enlighten you here: No one person made that call. Many people, working as a team, agreed that the changes they made were the best for balance based off the best information they had available at that time.

People really need to get over the thought that it's one guy in a throne made of buffs and nerfs giving thumbs up and thumbs down over every single bloody balance change based on *their* feeling of it being good or bad.

No one seems to get that the real conversation would've looked something like this:

GC: "You've checked the numbers, and this provides better balance than your plan B?"
Randomdev: "Yes."
GC: "You've gotten opinions from some of the other groups?"
Randomdev: "Not everyone agrees completely, but the consensus is this is our best setup."
GC: "Make the change. Monitor it for a while, let me know if we need to adjust."

[CollisionTD]

Very insightful post Collision. I tried to measure scaling differences by comparing different classes' stat weighs in simcraft but it seems pretty inelegant and is probably hugely inaccurate since stat weighs fluctuate a lot with gear level, so thanks for summing it up in a much more elegant and comprehensive way. I always thought fury scaled exceptionally well due to how the enrage/raging blow mechanic works and our ability to keep dumping massive amounts of resources even when GCD capped. From that last simcraft comparison it seems like the rppm stuff hardly affects our scaling at all while it has massive implications for a lot of specs (over 100k dps difference). I suppose this can't be assumed to be totally accurate but it certainly shows a clear trend.

Certainly. The trend is the important part of that image.

[Reinholder]

The patch will be out next week and still no buffs, we're screwed. Either there's a lack of whining from us or Bliz never actually cared about our DPS.

There's definitely not a lack of whining from what I can tell. UH dks have been tuned down a little so that will bring them down a bit. It still comes down to 2-3 class/specs being overtuned imho and sooner or later, if they are genuinely op they'll get nerfed. Bottomline, fury is either the 2nd or 3rd strongest melee dps spec on a majority of encounters behind assassination rogues and unholy dks. With the UH nerfs fury may move past them.

As it stands I'd say that fury would edge out UH on a straight up single target fight, anything with a large number of adds UH would have the advantage.

Unless you're in a world first guild I just don't get the drama. Warriors are pulling respectable numbers and are in a stronger position that a majority of the other melee options at the moment. Like I said before, the issue has far more to do with the balance between range and melee than anything else, and dps warrior survivability. In terms of numbers on the meter i don't think there's much to stress about.

[cFortyfive]

With the UH nerfs fury may move past them.

There are no unholy nerfs.

[Reinholder]

There are no unholy nerfs.

My bad they reverted them all besides the tricks nerf to bring down the festerblight dmg. Guess they saw them on par with fury and hence no need for nerfs

[isadorr]

How extensively did you re-optimize each profile post-ilvl jump last time around?

I did a quick and dirty run with raid_t15h.simc and global_item_upgrade_level=15 to get all of the profiles up to ~600 ilvl, and here's how things stood:

http://dread-gaming.com/simc/raid_mop_18.html

(live settings - can't get raid_t15h.simc to run with ptr=1)

... but there are some obvious issues with that. Every profile is quite a bit over the hit/exp caps, so dual-wield profiles will benefit from this extra ilvl more than 2h and caster profiles unless I go in and fake-reforge every profile back down to their caps. Additionally, the stat priority that feral druid and windwalker monk profiles established for rune of reorigination procs was ruined by the scaling (both now have haste > mastery, whereas before they had mastery > haste) - likely because the stats they have from gems aren't scaling along with the stats on the rest of their gear. Again, fake reforging would be necessary to correct this imbalance.

I'm sure those aren't the only inefficiencies introduced by this leap, but I'm not a qualified expert for every spec in the game, so those are the biggest changes that stand out. Still, I'm not sure that fury could optimize itself enough to close the ~40% gap between it and fire (before re-optimizing the fire profile, mind you), and I'm not convinced that Fury was nerfed enough to explain away that gap if what you guys are saying about fury scaling is true.

Very sexy Link

[senturion]

I admit I was wrong. We, warriors, can still be very competitive. We just need to shut up and L2P ! *learn to pad*

Thanks warriorsarri for sharing the secrets on how a top ranked EU team warrior keeps his slot.

Btw.. What happened to your warrior? Why are you now healing as a shammy? Unless... *gasp* you got benched?!?

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 07:22 AM ----------

Collision: have you considered that perhaps why the variances between fury top 100 logs are because those at the top are padding their balls off? Looking at horridon, I see excessive DPS on boss amongst the top parses. Looking at Cart's DPS on H horridon. He is on boss.. Breakaway to BS adds. Then is pretty much full time on boss through whole fight. Breakaway to BS adds when CD is up.

[Darkfriend]

I admit I was wrong. We, warriors, can still be very competitive. We just need to shut up and L2P ! *learn to pad*

Thanks warriorsarri for sharing the secrets on how a top ranked EU team warrior keeps his slot.

Btw.. What happened to your warrior? Why are you now healing as a shammy? Unless... *gasp* you got benched?!?

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 07:22 AM ----------

Collision: have you considered that perhaps why the variances between fury top 100 logs are because those at the top are padding their balls off? Looking at horridon, I see excessive DPS on boss amongst the top parses. Looking at Cart's DPS on H horridon. He is on boss.. Breakaway to BS adds. Then is pretty much full time on boss through whole fight. Breakaway to BS adds when CD is up.

Which is why you consider all specs, because all specs can, in some way, pad. Sure, some more than others, but it isn't like only warriors are padding.

[CollisionTD]

I admit I was wrong. We, warriors, can still be very competitive. We just need to shut up and L2P ! *learn to pad*

Thanks warriorsarri for sharing the secrets on how a top ranked EU team warrior keeps his slot.

Btw.. What happened to your warrior? Why are you now healing as a shammy? Unless... *gasp* you got benched?!?

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 07:22 AM ----------

Collision: have you considered that perhaps why the variances between fury top 100 logs are because those at the top are padding their balls off? Looking at horridon, I see excessive DPS on boss amongst the top parses. Looking at Cart's DPS on H horridon. He is on boss.. Breakaway to BS adds. Then is pretty much full time on boss through whole fight. Breakaway to BS adds when CD is up.

I think all specs have ways to pad, and warriors aren't exactly the best at padding.

[Warriorsarri]

Btw.. What happened to your warrior? Why are you now healing as a shammy? Unless... *gasp* you got benched?!?[COLOR="red"]

We're doing two runs per week, that was the first run, and I was on my ele shaman, today / Tomorrow the second group will go where I'll be on my warrior.