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  1. #81
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    I'm not to fond of the leveling system in WoW, but it is what it is. I doubt we'll see major changes until the next generation of WoW is released.

  2. #82
    WoW's leveling still isn't that bad. I will add that while the SWTOR style was great the first time through, the linear, story telling style makes leveling alts the most boring experience in any MMO I've ever played ( and I have a crap ton of alts in WoW). I would rather go back to just slaughtering massive amounts of pigs in a field than level another toon through SWTOR.

    TBH the problem with MMO leveling since WoW is that it hasn't really changed. " Dynamic Events" aren't really any different than grinding the same spawns over and over, and certainly all MMO's to date still have the " kill X number of mobs" or " collect these number of sticks of wood ". Even TSW still has them, and that's probably the most interesting " leveling" out there.

    Really until they figure out a way to make leveling and story change for every single new character you create, people will still be complaining about this 20 years from now

  3. #83
    The major problem of WoW questing is too big number of quests with most of them being meaningless. Quests should be more like scenarios with dynamic changing situation. What is more, I should see impact of my actions. Phasing is one of best elements implemented by Blizzard, but it's still used too rarely. When I need to clear pirates' den and kill the leader, I want to see no pirates after ending the quest. Some people cried that they had problem with grouping with lower friends, because of phasing(rather stupid problem, quests aren't hard anymore, who needs grouping for them, but it's only my opinion), but it can easily be done, by people, who are in further phase to be brought back to phase of party member, if one is in nearby.
    Dynamic events in GW2 are great, but they shouldn't be overused. As for SWTOR leveling, it's still "kill 10 x, bring 5 y" in most of cases, but it was enhanced by great story line being told in engaging way and lower number of quests. It would be great to go through plaguelands, meet group of travelers being attacked by leftovers of the scourge, kill attackers and together with NPCs assault their base and kill the leader, all of this being random event.
    I would go even further, but it's virtually impossible to implement it in WoW now. I mean the world should be much bigger, with more remote places. One should be able to go and explore if only wishes to do so and find for example find house of necromancer kidnapping people in the forest to bring him a justice. It should be an option and could work similarly to TES IV: Oblivion (I haven't played skyrim so I don't know how it is there). If you were already in one place or it was a big city, you could use quick travel option to reach it, just click on the map and here you're (it could be done as some sort of mount travel), but still you would be able to travel on foot/mount and on your way discover some knew quests or interesting places.

    EDIT: I forgot about the most stupid thing in WoW quests(but it is rather fault of engine)- no consequences of your bad actions. In worgen starting line in Gilneas you need to spy Sylvanas in cathedral. NPCS says we should in hide in the water, but there happens completely nothing if you jump out and run around the Dark Lady and orc general.
    Last edited by Sondzik; 2013-05-06 at 11:31 AM.

  4. #84
    I don't know about Neverwinter, but I did level through SWToR and that was nice. The first time... It's a horror the second time, as it's completely the same. No alternatives at all. Of course it's a little different with different races, but I wanted to build a family, so they were all the same race. Also it feels like a single player game, no MMO experience while leveling at all. Even worse then in WoW, where you would at least see some other people every now and then. I did level at launch, so it wasn't a case of 'everyone is already leveled and moved on' either.
    It hasn't been like that for a while. I play both games. SWtOR, you always see a bunch of people now, in nearly every planet. The starter planets are packed, you see chat looking for group for the heroic 2/4/area quests all the time. Some planets are less, but never empty, like Quesh, at any time of the day. As far as zones feeling empty ... even with CRZ, unless you are farming old mats, you can still not see anyone in most zones ... BUT, if you do, chances are near zero, you will have healthy interaction with them, or have chat be active or helpful ... both of which, on nearly any planet on SWtOR, you'll find helpful, friendly chat (there are still trolls), and lots of player interaction ... from people grouping up to quest, or do group quests, to random acts of kindness, like someone not in your group helping you kill a champion mob. Something I'd like to see more of ... though I can see the community has improved a bit with this in WoW since MoP launch, where I saw a much higher EMFH feel to the community (at least on Alli Stormrage).

    I'm just tired of the bashing of the game senselessly, just like people who senselessly bash WoW. They are both good games in their own way. Don't be part of the hate wagon, on either side, please




    When I recently re-subbed to WoW; after playing Tera and SWtOR more recently ... it did take a bit of a push on myself, to get back into the game and deal with the way questing 'felt' in the game. I have no clue the exact reasons, but trying to level through Jade forest felt like a chore, clunky, and made me grumpy/sleepy/disinterested. As I moved out of that zone, it started to feel a bit better. I also switched toons, from mage to priest, to finally sticking with getting my druid to 90, though switching specs on him halfway through questing as well.

    A part of me just really loved the feel of both the SWtOR questing, the Inquisitor Sorcerer class, and the ability to have a geared companion to aide me in battle (sorcerer healer with dps companion makes for fun clearing for me), as well as in other areas. I paid more attention to the quests, and the why, because it was voice acted. But in WoW, I leveled with my wife, and she pays less attention to the quest details in WoW, so we rarely read the lore behind it, which does give more purpose to why we are grabbing 4 mushan tongues or whatever.

    While at times, WoW feels a bit meh while questing ... it comes down to less of their content, and more to you, personally. Are you enjoying the class/spec you are playing? Are you tired or distracted? Are you playing to have fun, or just trying to get to some imagined goal you set for yourself?

    I found, that when I enjoy the class/spec, I enjoy the leveling/play experience better. I find that when I pay more attention to the lore/story, I enjoy the questing experience better.

    Besides the new Makeb on SWtOR in some areas, I found that when I came back to WoW, it was more of a chore to get around, without flight; because the mobs are packed so tight, and respawn relatively quickly. What this does is both annoying, and at times immersion-breaking. Clear something, and 10 seconds later when you turn around, they've all respawned is tedious at times. The room for movement through a zone, without engagement is less clear and/or possible. The opportunity to get dismounted is higher, and a bit annoying.

    But most things, are minor inconveniences or a player by player issue ... not the game's.

    If you are leveling a toon, just so you have 11 90s ... that is the problem, more than the content. If you hate melee, and are leveling a warrior, it is the forcing yourself into a combat role you don't like, not the content. If you are tired or bored, it is you not stopping for a break, not the game.

  5. #85
    Scarab Lord Miralynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    In comparison lately we've been shown the freedom GW2 leveling allowed, it didn't try to force any specific one task down your throat. Or now recently the Neverwinter or Star Wars leveling system which felt more like a single player story or campaign mode, you leveled by going through a series of very focused storylines, not by having to kill 5 wildlife in every new subzone you got sent to.
    Have you even actually PLAYED Neverwinter? My main there is nearing 30, and let me tell you: It's still questing. It's still 'kill 5 of these, kill 10 of those, collect 5 of these, escort this person from point X to point Y while he/she walks straight into every mob in a 10 mile radius, now go talk to this guy on the opposite side of the zone'. The storylines, while well written and engaging (I haven't touched WoW since last Tuesday XD), are really no different from the questing-on-rails approach WoW has had since Cataclysm.

    Leveling through Pandaria, each zone has the same sort of buildup to one big fight/event if you're paying attention. All the seemingly unrelated questlines come together for one big event at the end. In Jade Forest, it's the emergence of the Sha of Doubt and the shattering of the Jade serpent statue. In Valley, it's the battle at Halfhill. In Krasarang, it's freeing Chi-Ji from the Sha of Despair. And so on, and so on, and so on.

    Aside from a new setting and new lore (if you weren't already a D&D player/Forgotten Realms fan, anyway) questing as a whole in NW doesn't really offer anything new aside from a lot of instanced single-player areas. What it DOES have that I'd love to see in WoW is the Foundry. User-generated content is fun and keeps things fresh - if you're tired of the standard quest chains you can always find something in the Foundry that you haven't tried yet.
    When asked about the role of women in video games, Samus Aran said, "..." - and then she blew up the planet. AGAIN.

  6. #86
    This is always going to be an opinionated topic, but I do prefer the wow leveling structure compared to anything else I have tried. GW2 was neat but too scatterbrained imo, I could see elements of it being used like the daily targets(this could roughly be approximated as a more interesting rest xp system). Something like Dragon age or and RPG is going to probably be a little too story driven and scripted to work well in well so you are basically left exactly where we are now. I am sure they could make it more interesting, but adding heavily scripted stuff and vehicles that are about as graceful as trying to tap dance with concrete shoes isn't really my cup of tea. Just let me execute 50 zhevra for 4 of their apparently very hard to harvest hooves.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Miralynn View Post
    ...
    I guess we're looking at it with completely different glasses. To me it feels a lot like I'm playing NWN3 when I play NW and the chore-feeling I get when leveling in WoW (or any other MMO) simply isn't there because the story keeps me engaged.

    The leveling experience to me feels like playing another adventure or Baldur's Gate storyline. The leveling experience in WoW to me feels too much like a compilation of chores. Does anyone really give a fuck as to why they need to gather 8 carrots in subzone one and then in the next zone you're picking up 10 cowdungs? Nobody is going to be able to claim there is a lot of story behind those quests or that the leveling experience is even story focused.

    The sad truth is that the story-focused questing in WoW is a minority of the entire leveling experience. Usually the storyline quests are seen as a treat. People loved the WotLK storyline of the opening of the Wrathgate, people loved the storyline of the build up before battle in Jade Forest, people loved the storyline of the Celestial gate quest being opened. But again, sad truth, those quests are rare and few in between while in other recent MMOs nearly the entire leveling experience consists of several big storyline's unfolding.
    Last edited by Anarch the Subduer; 2013-05-06 at 12:54 PM.
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  8. #88
    The Patient Ridethelight's Avatar
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    The leveling system in wow might not be the best but it does the job. The thing is I don't mind leveling from 1-58 it can still be fun but when I enter that fucking portal I know the real grind is going to happen. They did a good job with pandaria but the amount of exp needed for 1 single level is ridiculous high.

    I don't need a whole new leveling system I just want that when I have one character max level my next character get X% more exp and so on with every new max character.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Edit: Leveling in MMOs originally started with "grind mobs until you level so you can move on to the next zone". WoW gave us quest-based leveling instead. But that is almost 10 years ago now... things have evolved beyond that point. The current standard of leveling in an mmo is at least at storyline-based leveling right now. And I feel that it doesn't do WoW any good to sticking to their old quest-based model. People who have been spoiled in other newer MMOs will have a hard time swallowing the old quest-based leveling model.
    Things haven't really evolved all that much. The newer games you mention are still "collect 10 of these" wrapped in a bit more story. GW2 had the right idea with dynamics, but even those aren't truly dynamic at all (at least they weren't exactly what folks were expecting), and they become a detriment if the zone you're leveling in happens to be dead.

    I'd actually say that the biggest problem in any MMO these days is the community perception that leveling is always a race, as the 'real' game simply must be waiting for you, the player, once you're done with the leveling process. Oblivious to the fact that you've already rushed through most content.

    So what to do about it? Make levels themselves mean far less (ie, your health and basic stats are fairly static), and leveling simply gives you access to a larger set of talents? Perhaps this would allow designers to make leveling be a longer and more complex process, and the players wouldn't feel like they can't do anything until they get to (random number).

    Or perhaps they should be based on your participation in your servers community / guild. WoW's current guild perks work a bit like this... and while they're not necessary to play the game on any level, they sure are nice to have, which makes folks pursue them
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  10. #90
    If you dont like leveling by questing the solution is simple -> DONT play a RP-Game... no quests = its not an RPG anymore and compared to pen&paper D'n'D I loove to quest...

  11. #91
    I think what they could do, is make more of an effort to introduce true open-world dynamic events. Events that will bring people together. Take a look at Rift for example - I've played both GW2 and Rift and Rift handles dynamic events perfectly. To fight back a zone invasion people need to participate. I'm no lore buff, but introducing them into the world of warcraft could be interesting.

  12. #92
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by think309 View Post
    They tried that in Cataclysm and many people hated the questing-on-rails approach.
    There's a difference between a forced questchain with little to no in-depth character story and the kind of levelling games like GW2/swtor/Neverwinter have. Those games actually make you feel involved.

    Blizzard should add more stuff like Brawlers Guild tbh. I only just recently got access to the guild and it is quite fun and challenging.

  13. #93
    I think they should try for an even-handed mix of both the classic "fetch me a dozen bear asses" along with more intense and focused quests including in-game cut-scenes, scripted events, and NPC interractions. To a degree I think they achieved a lot of this in MoP, coupling your more standard fetch & slay type quests along with tailored quests that integrate you more tightly into the world. I wouldn't say there's not room for improvement left - I'd love to see them add a branching type system that would give you different quests, interactions, or cut-scenes based on the player's choices. Hopefully it's something we might see in future expansions or content revamps.
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I'd love to see them add a branching type system that would give you different quests, interactions, or cut-scenes based on the player's choices.
    This is something that I do feel is missing, player choice. Why do I need to kill the pirate chief instead of talking him out of killing folks, or offering him a bribe to stay away? Why can't I choose to be good or evil, kill 10 mobs or collect 10 herbs, help an NPC or kill him? It's hard to RP when you have no choice in your quests. Try being a scholar who'd rather negotiate then kill... Can't do that while questing as you HAVE to kill whatever you are asked to. Choice would make for a more interesting quest experience (and add in consequences of course, where your choice will open certain questlines and close others).

  15. #95
    I personally think that instead of making gathering/pvp/instance grind/pet battle/mini games a compliment of questing to level, they should make it another way of leveling, in other words make those just as fast as questing, so people can choose how they level. the reason those are bad options at the moment is exp in them are so bad you rather use them as a compliment. My problem with MoP is that it is more Linear than CATA, and some zones are plain uninteresting.

  16. #96
    I think that they should make their entire leveling content a properly epic adventure of storylines unfolding. If all quests were like the opening of the Wrathgate, the storyline and narrative given during the opening of the Celestial Gate, the narrative and cutscenes given in Jade Forest then WoW would overall be a much better experience.

    Leveling shouldn't feel like a chore either. If having to make narrative, intense storylines, voice-overs and cutscenes for every questline would come at the cost of less content, eg. 80% less quests then they should do it. Nobody is going to miss those hundreds of pointless "gather x boxes/vegetables/bear asses/squirrel"-quests. People want to see more storyline driven content, less repetitive garbage. More cutscenes and involving storyline quests of warcraft lore unfolding, less 'gather 25 talbuk horns' and 'go help a farmer collect muddy water' quests.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    What is outdated about that is that it feels disjointed very often. Who the fuck really wants to focus on doing these stupid little side-quests of gathering 10 lost souls, killing 10 mogu's, gathering 10 bananas while you know that the main storyline of the zone you're in is to defeat the rising Sha threat. It is outdated in the sense that it feels purposeless.
    Most of these criticisms don't hold much water anymore. If you bother to read the quest text (I'm guessing you don't) virtually every quest gives you at minimum a plausible reason why you're gathering 10 lost souls, killing 10 mogus, or whatever. As far as being disjointed... Are you sure we're playing the same game anymore? Maybe the quests in BC can feel disjointed, but with the 1-60 revamp all of this has been really cleaned up. Again, if you read the quests, you'll find that you are engaging in hundreds of minor but cohesive storylines, sidequests and so on throughout the game.

    As far as pointing to GW2 as an example. Well, in GW2, you collect 10 bananas or gather 10 souls just like in WoW, if you're doing hearts, except no reason is given for it at all. You're literally doing chores for no discernible reason whatsoever. Milk some cows, get some XP + Karma.

    Not to say GW2 doesn't have some good ideas. I would love to see dynamic events adopted and adapted as an addition, or supplement, but not a replacement or alternative to traditional questing. Think of how rares work on Isle of Thunder. Say rares had a chance to spawn when leveling, their HP scaled and had shared tags, killing them gave as much HP as a quest. That would be a nice diversion. Also, leveling scenarios.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-06 at 06:03 PM ----------

    Also, wasn't one of the criticisms of Diablo III the shift in focus from a pure gameplay-oriented experience to a more narrative, story-driven game?

    A touchy issue is that lore is often more interesting than the narratives that convey them. Lore is there to be discovered for those interested, especially in MoP, without burdening players with excessive storytelling for players that just want to play the game. One poignant example: we all love Thrall and the lore behind him, but wasn't the whole love story between him and Aggra a bit of a flop?
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-05-06 at 06:04 PM.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    There is NOTHING more boring than redoing those save the world events that pop up every X minutes and pop up endlessly.
    actually there is. its a questing/levelling experience that will be EXACTLY the same every time you do it. every. single. time. oh, and there is never any chance of you dying, because the mobs you fight have all been neutered. that sounds pretty damn boring to me.

    but thats the current Blizzard approach to an RPG experience; on rails design that feels like a theme park and has no sense of danger. you want to understand why people arent taking up this game? its nothing to do with the need for subscription, its the fact that it isnt actually an RPG any more. there are plenty of people taking advantage of the free play option for WoW. I just cant imagine any of them playing it for the first time and thinking "this is great, i must pay a subscription for it".
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    The volume of new game features and content in MoP is a direct consequence of people cancelling subscriptions during Cataclysm. You're welcome.

  19. #99
    Mechagnome Thulyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    actually there is. its a questing/levelling experience that will be EXACTLY the same every time you do it. every. single. time. oh, and there is never any chance of you dying, because the mobs you fight have all been neutered. that sounds pretty damn boring to me.

    but thats the current Blizzard approach to an RPG experience; on rails design that feels like a theme park and has no sense of danger. you want to understand why people arent taking up this game? its nothing to do with the need for subscription, its the fact that it isnt actually an RPG any more. there are plenty of people taking advantage of the free play option for WoW. I just cant imagine any of them playing it for the first time and thinking "this is great, i must pay a subscription for it".
    Whats with the thread necrophilia? ...

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Panszer View Post
    Whats with the thread necrophilia? ...
    its a week since anyone posted on it, thats all. and its related to a topic that is still current. is that a problem officer?
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    The volume of new game features and content in MoP is a direct consequence of people cancelling subscriptions during Cataclysm. You're welcome.

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