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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    For unholy, at the moment I'm slightly confused. BT sims higher but RC (subjectively) feels better and seems to yield slightly better results.
    Same here, I use RC for blood always as i just find it works better, I spent alot of time changing between the 3, even with macro to frost strike BT just does'nt seem as rewarding.
    Found myself going back to RC for unholy due to haste stacking and preferring faster CD on 3 runes over just getting 1 rune
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  2. #22
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broodax View Post
    Where's your 40.5% number from? I have been looking for the math we all did at the beginning of the tier to evaluate these talents and I can't find it anywhere.

    And, BT sims quite a bit higher than RC, and real world conditions (AMS, downtime, etc) should only make the difference larger. Where do you get the idea that RC would win?

    30% of each rune = 90% of a whole rune
    90% * 0.45 (chance to proc) = 40.5% of all 3 runes per death coil (on average)

    So, per death coil/frost strike

    Blood Tap - 40% of a death rune (can be banked)
    Runic Corruption - 40.5% split across 3 rune types (providing you have those runes recharging)
    Runic Empowerment - 45% of a random rune (need at least 1 fully depleted rune)

    Mathematically I can't explain why I think RC works so well with festerblight. 0.5% of an extra "rune" doesn't compare to getting a death rune. However, because BB/FF runes also have a higher value when using festerblight and RC returns those runes simultaneously it leads to smoother use of FeS with less possibility of orphan runes. Someone mentioned above that there was some chat on the Acherus podcast about it - still need to have a listen. Also, as Euliat said it's not going to be a massive difference (though I'm not arguing about it) I just share Schizoide's sentiment of "if I can get 1% more damage potential from changing a talent then I'd like to do it and know why!"
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Morbycakes View Post
    Bear in mind that BT is quite a bit harder to manage than the others and you should never macro it if you want optimal usage, or else it will end up worse than the others.
    This is wrong.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    This is wrong.
    Do you think that you should Macro BT? If so, you're incorrect. Macro'd BT can cause a waste of procs during high haste points, will mess up your runes and cause you to be forced to FeS more than you normally would at times (Or SS less, alternatively). Not even factoring in the fact that you'll GCD cap yourself even outside of high Haste points and lose out on RP/Runes.

    If you're arguing that it's not harder (Arguing being used losely, as you didn't bring anything to the table with your statement), then my previous points would like a word.

    TL;DR macro BT if you want to waste Runes and end up with less practical rune usage than the other talents.

  5. #25
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Blood Tap. Control for burst/heals when you need it will always be better tbh.

  6. #26
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    This is wrong.
    Are you suggesting macro'ing Blood Tap is in any way optimal? That's absolutely ridiculous. If someone can't manage Blood Tap on it's own that's really embarrassing.

    You are wrong.

  7. #27
    It's wrong to generalize that it's worse than the other options when macroed.
    It is worse for some specs that use it for the timing rather than it granting death runes.
    It is okayish for specs that use it just for the sake of getting extra death runes.
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  8. #28
    I never said it was optimal for all specs and all circumstances. The generality "macroed BT is always worse than the alternatives" is wrong. It's a standard elitist parrot post from someone who does not understand the underlying mechanics.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2013-05-08 at 10:45 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I never said it was optimal for all specs and all circumstances. The generality "macroed BT is always worse than the alternatives" is wrong. It's a standard elitist parrot post from someone who does not understand the underlying mechanics.
    I guess you don't understand the GCD mechanic then. Point taken, don't try to help people out on the internet or

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Morbycakes View Post
    I guess you don't understand the GCD mechanic then. Point taken, don't try to help people out on the internet or
    Please do educate me. I am the first to admit when I'm wrong. I mean, nobody could possibly be so condescending unless they knew what they were talking about.

    What do you think "the GCD mechanic" is, and why would an ability off the GCD like blood tap have anything to do with it?

  11. #31
    To clarify. Unmacro'd blood tap is the superior option for basically all specs (only exception I've heard is festerblight, and even here it's debatable/damn close), macro'd blood tap is better than RC/RE in some situations, but never better than unmacro'd blood tap. The only spec where unmacro'd blood tap really isn't viable is blood, if you aren't saving up runes for death strikes in certain situations you aren't playing the spec properly, it's that simple. For blood: Unmacro'd blood tap>>>>RC and nothing else is really remotely viable.

  12. #32
    It really depends on what you mean by superior, or optimal. Unmacroed BT sims as a very small DPS gain for 2 of 3 DPS specs, and that assumes perfect execution. Take a look at the simcraft action lists; it is not trivial to meet those requirements and use unmacroed BT "properly" to get that extra performance while also dancing around a raid boss.

    2H frost: BT (macroed or not) is not a great choice because RE is more efficient and every rune can be used to Obliterate anyway.

    DW frost: Macroed BT is perfectly fine. (unmacroed sims as a 1.1% DPS improvement with perfect execution)

    Unholy Festerblight: Macroed BT is perfectly fine. (unmacroed sims as a 0.2% gain with perfect execution)

    Blood: Blood is less worried about efficiency (death strikes over time, RE) and more concerned with control (unmacroed BT) or consistent damage mitigation (RC). So macroed BT is not the best choice for blood. Most tanks choose either RC or unmacroed BT.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2013-05-09 at 12:32 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    To clarify. Unmacro'd blood tap is the superior option for basically all specs (only exception I've heard is festerblight, and even here it's debatable/damn close), macro'd blood tap is better than RC/RE in some situations, but never better than unmacro'd blood tap. The only spec where unmacro'd blood tap really isn't viable is blood, if you aren't saving up runes for death strikes in certain situations you aren't playing the spec properly, it's that simple. For blood: Unmacro'd blood tap>>>>RC and nothing else is really remotely viable.
    It is not so black and white. There are tanks in guilds better than yours that don't use BT, so you can't say it isn't viable. I bet you are one of those people that says that "stat A is useless" because it sims at .89 and stat B sims at .90
    Last edited by Skarssen; 2013-05-09 at 02:14 AM.

  14. #34
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    ... Just thought I'd add that BT has the highest theoretical, simmed DPS for 2H frost. Something to do with saving procs for killing machines, banking runes during AMS absorbs and returning runes after using SR to minimise orphan-rune-syndrome.

    I give up, it's all viable, well played Blizzard, well played...

    *runs away before inc flames*
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-05-09 at 02:03 AM.
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  15. #35
    The default 2H frost simcraft profile uses BT, yes, but it has a ton of actions to make it optimal. It has 5 separate lines that deal with BT. If you look at the simcraft profile, you will /boggle.

    2H frost T15N with that ridiculous BT action list: 148244
    2H frost T15N macroed BT: 146195 (-1.4%)
    2H frost T15N RE: 147701 (-0.36%)

    From these results, I stand by my previous recommendation of RE for 2H frost. I can't imagine anyone short of Rain Man choosing unmacroed BT and going to all that trouble for a lousy 0.36% DPS with perfect execution.

    This is yet another case of simcraft leading people astray. The simcraft profiles are optimized to the point of ridiculousness. They have actions predicated on Killing Machine too. If people read simcraft profiles and try to "do that" they're doing themselves a disservice.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2013-05-09 at 02:46 AM.

  16. #36
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    snip
    It was a joke man, meant to highlight the importance of putting sims in context... You'd need superhuman reaction speeds to make it better than RE in most circumstances. Tbh if I ever go back to 2h frost I'd likely just keep it macrod to minimise RNG and make my life easier - I can live with that ;-)
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-05-09 at 03:06 AM.
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  17. #37
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    I honestly love Blood Tap. When used properly, you never have to wait on any abilities (Specifically at 2h Frost)

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Skarssen View Post
    It is not so black and white. There are tanks in guilds better than yours that don't use BT, so you can't say it isn't viable. I bet you are one of those people that says that "stat A is useless" because it sims at .89 and stat B sims at .90
    Depends on what you mean by viable, and I haven't actually seen any top dk tank that isn't using BT so feel free to link them. The only advantage there is to not using BT is that you don't need to micro it, and you lose a very significant chunk of survivability (both control, and a good amount of death strikes). The claim that RC is more dps that I see a lot is simply incorrect since you always have the option of turning some of your death runes to heart or nectrotic strikes, or simply use some more dps gear due to the survivability added by RT.

    The difference between BT and RC isn't even close to two stats simming at .89 and .90, it's very significant (not that I'd see a reason to gear for the .89 stat over the .90 stat either, unless it's better in specific situations, e.g. movement or aoe). RC is worse than BT in every situation, in some just slightly, in most significantly. That's black and white to me.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-05-09 at 11:05 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Depends on what you mean by viable, and I haven't actually seen any top dk tank that isn't using BT so feel free to link them. The only advantage there is to not using BT is that you don't need to micro it, and you lose a very significant chunk of survivability (both control, and a good amount of death strikes). The claim that RC is more dps that I see a lot is simply incorrect since you always have the option of turning some of your death runes to heart or nectrotic strikes, or simply use some more dps gear due to the survivability added by RT.

    The difference between BT and RC isn't even close to two stats simming at .89 and .90, it's very significant (not that I'd see a reason to gear for the .89 stat over the .90 stat either, unless it's better in specific situations, e.g. movement or aoe). RC is worse than BT in every situation, in some just slightly, in most significantly. That's black and white to me.
    You're right there are fights where BT is clearly better than RC. However there are also fights where they are basically equal, and RC DOES do about 10% more dps at no cost of survival. If there are burst mechanics (horridon, tortos, jikun, ra-den ect.) then you should be using BT. Fights with consistent damage (primordius, jinrokh, iron qon, consorts ect.) the two are basically equal for survival but RC does more damage without sacrificing any survival.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    RC DOES do about 10% more dps at no cost of survival.
    This makes no sense. BT and RC have the same efficiency, but BT gives death runes. RC's only advantage is consistently paired runes, allowing for a more comfortable "rhythm" of play. But that is not a DPS improvement, unless you can't seem to make BT work and always spend those extra runes on a heart strike.

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