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  1. #61
    Keyboard Turner louiscarver89's Avatar
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    I always use Blood Tap

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Because the math is non-trivial and it can be highly confusing. That's why we all campaigned so aggressively to change the L75 tier in MoP beta. Sadly, we failed.

    Threads like this come up all the time. The L75 tier is just poorly designed, that's all.
    If the tier were poorly designed, then there would be no discussion on it. A sim would simply tell you the answer and that's that. Re-using mechanics we already had in place before MoP or making something that is not obviously easy to math out (note that this does not imply it is impossible, either) does not constitute a poor design. A poor design is determined by how well or how poorly the design satisfies the design criteria.

    The fact that this discussion exists (for both tanking and DPS (except DW Frost)) and the fact that there is not a clear answer is exactly what the developers were aiming for with the MoP talent system. Whether you personally like the tier is another issue entirely, but the fact of the matter is that this is one of the most closely balanced tier choices that actually impacts your DPS and rotation in a meaningful way. In that regard, they have done exceptionally well because it is exactly what they set out to do. Sure, they didn't get every tier right, but this is the one tier where they absolutely did.

    However, this is a tangent.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Because the math is non-trivial and it can be highly confusing. That's why we all campaigned so aggressively to change the L75 tier in MoP beta. Sadly, we failed.

    Threads like this come up all the time. The L75 tier is just poorly designed, that's all.
    I really don't see how our t5 is poorly designed, I find it really interesting. RE and BT ask for a very different playstyle with different perks and drawbacks, RC is like a hybrid/limited version of RE/BT but slightly easier to use, that's pretty much exactly how I think talents should be designed.

  4. #64
    It's poorly designed because the vast majority of people don't understand how it works. It's too mathy, leading to threads like this one.

    Euliat likes the tier because he understands the math. But if you read through this thread from the beginning you'll see quite a few people who didn't.

    Here's a question-- would the class be hurt or improved if RC was set baseline and the L75 tier replaced with (for example) three ways to spend Runic Power to AE?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    Small error, but changes your conclusion entirely.
    I plead the sick-th (get it?)

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 09:57 AM ----------

    I ran the sim again, and this time I adjusted BT's profile to simulate RC, and they came out about even. However I still hold that RC does more dps without adjusting to a DPS playstyle. In making BT return runes for heart strike (a dps gain and needed for them to be equal) you lose charges that could be spent on Death Strike. And every time you spend runes in this manner, you delay returning a death strike until you have the charges again. RC will give you B rune return without affecting your F and U pair return. Is the average DS/min the same between the two? about the same yes, but DS/min is not what we care about. If it were we would all be using RE. RC consistently and frequently shortens your DS return time, which is what gives it its value. If you make BT function for more dps, you lose the complete DS control that if gives you, and will run into more longer FU recharges.

    Can BT be used to match RC's dps? yes. Can BT be used to surpass RC's dps? Can BT do either of those things WHILE using a completely survival oriented playstyle? no. You have to at some point use D runes on heart strike/necrotic strike to make BT do equivalent (or more) dps, and while the overall ds/min is roughly the same you lose the consistent shortening of RC.

  6. #66
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It's poorly designed because the vast majority of people don't understand how it works. It's too mathy, leading to threads like this one.

    Euliat likes the tier because he understands the math. But if you read through this thread from the beginning you'll see quite a few people who didn't.

    Here's a question-- would the class be hurt or improved if RC was set baseline and the L75 tier replaced with (for example) three ways to spend Runic Power to AE?
    A lot of people understand the math to some degree, I personally understand it - it's not rocket science. Sometimes it's less about maths and potential rune return and more about how it feels to play or how those talents synergise with the abilities you're using/encounter mechanics - hence why I use RC over BT for festerblight, it's subjectively "smoother" (and yields better results for me) but that means nothing to someone who's just looking for the highest theoretical gain. The problem comes when people (I'm somewhat guilty) become convinced that one of those talents is the ONLY competitive way to play a spec because of the maths behind it... That's generally not the case.

    These threads exist (a lot) because, in my opinion Blizzard have done so well with this tier of talents. The choice completely defines how you play your spec and yet there isn't always a "right" answer, which is what Blizzard were going for in the first place.

    As for spending runic power on AOE. I'm assuming something like that will come next expansion... New abilities are always added somewhere and some sort of runic power AOE seems like the logical thing to do. Would the class be hurt by having RC baseline? Unholy/blood not so much. 2H frost would also get away with it relatively unscathed but the current "masterfrost" DW would be hurt. If Blizzard were to do away with that tier of talents then BT would likely be the go-to baseline talent.
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-05-10 at 04:13 PM.
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  7. #67
    Shrug. I guess we disagree. Obviously not a scientific poll, but the reactions to the L75 tier I've seen from DKs for the past year has been overwhelmingly negative, and I share in that reaction even though I do understand the math.

    The only other tier I've seen with such a near-universal negative reaction is the mage L90.

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