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  1. #1
    The Patient sasofrass's Avatar
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    Archimonde's Vengeance?

    I can't really think of any particular instance which this would even be useful from a PvE standpoint in ToT.

    I was thinking if a boss enrages you use Dark Bargain and Archimonde's Vengeance maybe you could save the day, but realistically that does not happen very often.

    Anyone use this talent regularly?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    I can't really think of any particular instance which this would even be useful from a PvE standpoint in ToT.

    I was thinking if a boss enrages you use Dark Bargain and Archimonde's Vengeance maybe you could save the day, but realistically that does not happen very often.

    Anyone use this talent regularly?
    I wouldn't say regularly (depends how lazy I feel xD), but sometimes I do end up using it when playing Demonology. Demo leap/movement allows you to dps while moving generally regardless - so on a fight like Ji'kun AV does a bit of damage when quills is out, etc. I think I've used it on Iron Qon/Twin Consorts as well - it's not really absurd omg must have talent; but if you can manage timing movement with meta form it's a small dps boost.

  3. #3
    Moderator Alarinth's Avatar
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    I tried using DB on Garalon Enrage with that back in 5.0 progression. Instead of doing 2.5M damage to garalon, it did something along the lines of 320k. I think it's capped at your max health, which is boring, lame and unoriginal design.
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  4. #4
    Found a rank #2 log for heroic Ji'kun, using Archimonde's Vengeance - Fearsom <Vigil>
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7.../1/?s=52&e=458

    (obviously there are others, but I just had a quick look so you could see roughly the damage it does in a raid)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabidewok View Post
    Found a rank #2 log for heroic Ji'kun, using Archimonde's Vengeance - Fearsom <Vigil>
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7.../1/?s=52&e=458

    (obviously there are others, but I just had a quick look so you could see roughly the damage it does in a raid)
    it was 1.7% of this damage, it did a little bit more then 1.1 million damage which would be a decent passive increase but he was forced to use felflame 5 times which did 1.1m damage.

    He would be better of using KJC instead of being forced to use felflame

  6. #6
    i agree with ati, KJC will allow more dps , instead of using felflame on the move.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    He would be better of using KJC instead of being forced to use felflame
    Not really. Having the KJC debuff makes nest jumping much trickier than it should be (depending on the nest), in addition to being generally annoying to do Downdraft with.

    Using FF is just a very minor DPS decrease compared to Incin usage and at current gear/haste levels I don't really think there's much of a difference tbh.

    Edit: Thought he was Destro - as Demo, maybe it's a bigger deal.
    Last edited by Rustjive; 2013-05-06 at 07:07 PM.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    Not really. Having the KJC debuff makes nest jumping much trickier than it should be (depending on the nest), in addition to being generally annoying to do Downdraft with.

    Using FF is just a very minor DPS decrease compared to Incin usage and at current gear/haste levels I don't really think there's much of a difference tbh.

    Edit: Thought he was Destro - as Demo, maybe it's a bigger deal.
    AFAIK Fel Flame is pretty much even with casting a Shadowbolt, just costs more.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    AFAIK Fel Flame is pretty much even with casting a Shadowbolt, just costs more.
    It was even, but now is ~10% under shadow bolt. Still it is half the 'cast of felflame' so basically every time you fel flame you 'lose' 5% of a cast of shadow bolt which isn't that much. (That isn't counting the fact that you also added some time to corruption which may or may not be relevant)

    The main reason however that I no longer use AV and use KjC is because of the strength of procs this tier, it is far too easy to do negative dps casting fel flame and erasing buffs off of corruption.

  10. #10
    AV does not reflect absorbed damage. Using it with Dark Bargain is a waste. The entire ability (That whole tier, really) needs to be re-done badly. KJC and AV both promote bad gameplay, and MF makes AoE "loleasymode".

  11. #11
    Archimonde's Vengeance is clearly the ability that will give you the highest overall damage as demonology if you could plan out the entire fight beforehand including when movement was required and when your procs would occur. That being said, the opportunity cost of missing something because you went meta to move and ran out of fury when UVLS procced, or because you had to throw in a few fel flames too many and life tapped at an inopportune moment of Caw that killed you etc. means it's generally not worth it. It's very unlikely to be the damage that pushes your guild over the top to success on a fight, but could very easily be something that killed you.

    That being said - JiKun is a prime example where it can be useful as Quills is a great easily predictable moment to pop the active ability.

  12. #12
    I get how AV could be construed as promoting bad gameplay (since you need to take extra damage for it to work, which is normally something to avoid) but why KJC? Granted, it takes away the challenge of timing your abilities to make movement possible with losing as little dps as you can, but on the other hand the snare is *not* completely inconsequential on most fights where KJC really matters - you need to keep it in mind, work around it by positioning correctly and using bursts of BR etc. I'd say it's simply a very fun talent to play with, not to mention critically important for affliction, since haphazardly casting FF and not being able to channel MG all the time simply gut affli dps. Without KJC affliction would probably fare little better than arcane now.

    At the moment AV is too weak anyway, plus the fact that absorbed/reduced damage doesn't get reflected is quite stupid. Maybe if they changed to it interact with our protective talents, for example making it so that any damage absorbed or reduced by our own (not third party) effects is transferred to the target - then it might make sense. It even fits the overall theme, with KJC interacting with channels/casts and MF interacting with aoe spells.
    Last edited by Rurts; 2013-05-06 at 09:55 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremory1 View Post
    Archimonde's Vengeance is clearly the ability that will give you the highest overall damage as demonology if you could plan out the entire fight beforehand including when movement was required and when your procs would occur. That being said, the opportunity cost of missing something because you went meta to move and ran out of fury when UVLS procced, or because you had to throw in a few fel flames too many and life tapped at an inopportune moment of Caw that killed you etc. means it's generally not worth it. It's very unlikely to be the damage that pushes your guild over the top to success on a fight, but could very easily be something that killed you.

    That being said - JiKun is a prime example where it can be useful as Quills is a great easily predictable moment to pop the active ability.
    The assumption of that if everything goes perfect and your team does everything that favours you then AV is a dps increase is kind of to many ifs isn't it.

    With the exception of Patchwerk their hasn't been any fight where you could stand still and do dps for the whole battle, even the most simple tank and spank fights since requires some sort of movement in which being able to walk while casting provides more dps.

    The reason why you should take KJC 9 out of 10 is that it allows you to make full use of your procs even if you need to move, and if needed you can always dispel not move or remove thedebuff with unbouwn will and/or if human with every man of himself.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    The assumption of that if everything goes perfect and your team does everything that favours you then AV is a dps increase is kind of to many ifs isn't it.

    With the exception of Patchwerk their hasn't been any fight where you could stand still and do dps for the whole battle, even the most simple tank and spank fights since requires some sort of movement in which being able to walk while casting provides more dps.

    The reason why you should take KJC 9 out of 10 is that it allows you to make full use of your procs even if you need to move, and if needed you can always dispel not move or remove thedebuff with unbouwn will and/or if human with every man of himself.
    Ra-den says hi. (Well you have to move like 8 feet every once in a while, but that doesn't really matter much. It's plenty easy to plan around it.)



    Personally I think of the talents in the following way:

    AV: Gives extra damage for free

    KjC: Mitigates damage lost while moving

    MF: Gives extra damage when normal AoE wouldn't hit.



    AV will always give you extra damage. KjC will not give you damage, but it will make you lose less when being forced to move. MF will sometimes give you extra damage.

  15. #15
    The Patient Sparkuggz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Ra-den says hi. (
    Works really well on that fight for sure, p2 is a lot of damage taken
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz View Post
    Works really well on that fight for sure, p2 is a lot of damage taken
    I was getting 8k ticks every raid pulse in the last phase. It's like a second immolate.

  17. #17
    Wasn't the original problem with the 90 tier that AV was too strong of a reflect while KJC was underwhelming due to the cast-time increase? So they made KJC WAY more powerful (I still think it's OP), and AV much weaker? I think AV should be in for a slight buff (+5% passive, +10% active?) and KJC could use a little bit of a nerf (15-20% slow per stack?).

  18. #18
    Moderator Alarinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    I think AV should be in for a slight buff (+5% passive, +10% active?) and KJC could use a little bit of a nerf (15-20% slow per stack?).
    Agreed. AV as it is now is uninteresting. And the fact that it doesn't reflect absorbed damage is worse.
    As for the KJC nerf, they don't need to increase the slow per stack, just increase the amount of stacks from 2 to 4, and reduce the slow to 11 or 12% instead. a total of 48% slow will be gutting enough.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rurts View Post
    I get how AV could be construed as promoting bad gameplay (since you need to take extra damage for it to work, which is normally something to avoid) but why KJC? Granted, it takes away the challenge of timing your abilities to make movement possible with losing as little dps as you can, but on the other hand the snare is *not* completely inconsequential on most fights where KJC really matters - you need to keep it in mind, work around it by positioning correctly and using bursts of BR etc. I'd say it's simply a very fun talent to play with, not to mention critically important for affliction, since haphazardly casting FF and not being able to channel MG all the time simply gut affli dps. Without KJC affliction would probably fare little better than arcane now.
    They factor in movement to overall DPS when they balance classes, the fact that KJC was changed after release was probably a pretty major factor in Affliction ending up overshooting where it should have been - movement was meant to gut it, but KJC ended up overcompensating for previously assumed loss. Moving and DPSing itself is supposed to be a skill, we know that, it's why they put movement mechanics in the game; but KJC doesn't really change anything in terms of your rotation. Sure, you have to deal with the snare, but with the exception of Durumu this tier, there just isn't the kind of long term movement where that is actually an issue. You also forget that there's Corruption, Agony and Life Tap to use while moving, not just Fel Flame, that's quite a few things to make use of - forgetting that is just a sign of how lost that skill is and how much you're able to depend on KJC.

  20. #20
    The reason why KJC is insanely good isn't really about being able to dps on the move. It's about simplification.

    I'm a fairly good raider, but I will admit at times it's a little bit of a hassle trying to dynamically plot chaos bolt casts in line with Rain Of Fire casts to balance mana around internal cooldown trackers and on use timers. We do this because that's how you play destro. That's how you get the 1million chaos bolts instead of the 600k. KJC is great because I can then ignore movement complexity to this which exponentially increases the difficulty of lining up the super hard hitting bolts. Affliction is somewhat simpler in that regards and is much easier to play on the move in terms of optimisation at least but the principle is the same.

    You really can't overestimate the value of KJC when you consider the fact it lets you focus utterly on that level of cooldown line-up perfection. Yes it's not that hard to weave in fel flames and conflogrates into movement dps and if you're lucky enough, you'll not even lose any dps really. However when you're on 35 embers and you pop Rain of Fire and you're half way through a chaos bolt and now at 39 embers and you have to dodge a caw targetted at you and now you're at 40..40...40...40..40...then you can chaos bolt. That's pretty damn huge.

    Is AV good? Sure if you have zero movement. Is it a dps boost? Sure. Do I ever take it? Nope. Simply because the value of KJC is too good to waste. And the penalties? If you have a good raid group those are mitigated severely. Nests on Ji-kun? That's what Windwalker totem is for. When i'm doing Nest 3 to 4 or 8 to 10 that's pretty much essential. Worst comes to teh worst there's always burning rush to mitigate it additionally. Yes it costs but when you're riding a 500k absorb shield on most fights...you can feel safe you're unlikely to get gibbed due to being at half health any time soon too.

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