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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    22 guilds have killed it on 25M, 42 on 10M. Objectively or not, this fight on 10M HC is pure faceroll both raid comp (bring anything that can hit the boss in 10M, Spine v2) and mechanics-wise.
    1.07% of raiding 25M guilds have killed Lei Shen. 0.17% have killed Lei Shen 10H.

    Of guilds that are at least 6/13H, of which there are ~230 25m guilds, and ~450 10m guilds, there are 22 25H Lei Shen kills, and 42 10H Lei Shen kills. Of guilds that are decently skilled (6/13H is a decent qualifier because it forces guilds to have killed fights like Council, Primoridus, Magaera, etc), 9.56% of 25man guilds have killed Lei Shen, and 9.33% of 10man guilds have killed Lei Shen.


    I can't make any objective judgements about the difficulty of Lei Shen on the two difficulties as I have not done 25H Lei Shen having gotten gear at the 25man rate, but it appears in terms of what percentage of the skilled heroic raiding community has killed the boss, that it is roughly even in terms of difficulty to complete.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 09:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    And the fact guild are going in for the first time and 3 shotting it on 10 m
    I don't know of any 10man guild that has 3 shot it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 09:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by blgns View Post
    everyone knows that 10hc are like 25 normal... dumb noobs from 10m who actually thinks they're better than 25m players lol
    Think what you like, but assuming that 10hc is like 25n is stupid.

  2. #62
    look at the damage done by boss abilities. on many fights, 10h is equal to 25n in terms of damage done - which means that players can be *much* sloppier and still complete encounters.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post

    I don't know of any 10man guild that has 3 shot it.[COLOR="red"]
    Dont take everything too serious, I and Drye (what I strongly think so) have Irony switch On ;P

    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Think what you like, but assuming that 10hc is like 25n is stupid.
    My guild mate heard it from his friend long time ago when they talk about differences in 10m vs 25m raiding, it quickly becomes one of our favorites tag in guild ;D We were like 6/8hc DS and they (my mates friend guild) were... well, i dont know but far far away from us ;d

    btw ill always like butthurt "arguments" about retardfriendly 10hc bosses and super ultra hard 25hc boses, and ppl who thinks they are by far better only because they playing 25.

    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    look at the damage done by boss abilities. on many fights, 10h is equal to 25n in terms of damage done - which means that players can be *much* sloppier and still complete encounters.
    you play 25, arent you ;p?

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by blgns View Post
    you play 25, arent you ;p?
    check the ability damage in the dungeon journal. it isn't an opinion.

  5. #65
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    check the ability damage in the dungeon journal. it isn't an opinion.
    I checked Troll Council as an example:

    http://www.icy-veins.com/council-of-...d-strategy-wow

    Pretty much all the abilities I moused over did the same damage on 10H and 25H, with the exception of Sandbolt which hits about 5% harder in 25H than in 10H: but that means it's actually harder in 10H than 25H. Sandbolt target is randomized and cast at the same speed in both 10 and 25, except in 10 that means a 1/10 that if it goes out it will hit someone, and in 25 that means a 1/25 chance - so in terms of "missed Sandbolts" the damage is 2.5 times Lower in 25 than in 10. Sandbolt is also kickable, in 10 that means you have ~2.5 times fewer people able to interrupt the same number of casts - or that controlling all the sandbolts is significantly easier on 25 than in 10.

    Maybe I picked an unfair fight, I'll go through some others:

    http://www.icy-veins.com/jin-rokh-th...d-strategy-wow - all abilities do the same damage

    http://www.icy-veins.com/dark-animus...d-strategy-wow - the only ability that does extra damage is Full Power (raid wipe / fail mechanic).

    http://www.icy-veins.com/twin-consor...d-strategy-wow - Tears of the Sun hits about 5% harder in 25H, Light of the Day hits ~20% harder - those aren't really the hard mechanics of the fight though, they're just there so people don't stack up.

    http://www.icy-veins.com/lei-shen-detailed-strategy-wow - all mechanics do the same damage on 10H and 25H.


    Given that the only fight I could found an example of a 25H mechanic causing more damage than a 10H mechanic - sorry but I consider this myth debunked unless someone else can provide me further evidence to the contrary. In 25H, AoE healing spells are far more effective than in 10H - which I think is the reason why in the case of Twin Consorts, her Light of the Day has to hit harder: otherwise a Healing Rain would quickly trivialize equivalent damage in 10 and 25 (since it heals for 2.5x as much in 25's as it does in 10's).

    25 Healers also have an advantage over 10 Healers in that when someone takes a sudden spike in damage (ie. tanks, or people doing specific mechanics, or mechanics which hit a single random raid member - such as Sandbolt) 25's have 2.5 times more people responding to that damage spike than 10's do. Given that many mechanics go out as frequently in 10's and 25's - if anything that could suggest 10's being harder on some fights (ie. Horridon, possibly Lei Shen).

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 08:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    check the ability damage in the dungeon journal. it isn't an opinion.
    I think the problem is that you are looking at something written by Blizzard about World of Warcraft, which are notoriously incorrect - worse than Noxxic For accurate information, consult MMO-Champion, wowDB, Wowhead or Wowpedia (depending on the time of information you seek).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-05-11 at 08:35 PM.
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  6. #66
    your comments on healing in 25s is backwards. even though the total healing done by some particular aoe spell is higher, the healing per target is lower due to capping. also it's easier to avoid aoe abilities in 10s vs 25s just due to having fewer people in the same area.

    the biggest thing that's different on 10s and 25s in terms of damage is the damage dealt by adds (such as dealing with sparks on lei shen), and the melee boss damage on the tank.

  7. #67
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    your comments on healing in 25s is backwards. even though the total healing done by some particular aoe spell is higher, the healing per target is lower due to capping. also it's easier to avoid aoe abilities in 10s vs 25s just due to having fewer people in the same area.

    the biggest thing that's different on 10s and 25s in terms of damage is the damage dealt by adds (such as dealing with sparks on lei shen), and the melee boss damage on the tank.
    Give me some healing spells that put out less healing per cast in 25 versus 10.

    Spells like Circle of Healing, Wild Growth and Chain heal hit the same number of targets in both for the same amount per target - but are more likely to be effective in 25 where there are 2.5 times more people who are potentially not at full health (less overhealing on smart heals in 25).

    Spells like Healing Rain, HW: Sanctuary(soft capped but still significantly stronger vs 25 than 10 targets), Spinning Crane Kick, Divine Star / Halo are uncapped AoE - and so hit 2.5 times more targets in 25 versus 10, while healing for the same amount per target.

    I suppose we could look at World of Logs to find how hard sparks on Lei Shen or bosses are hitting in 10 vs 25, but I doubt it's significant - if there even is a difference.


    Regarding avoiding AoE abilities in 10 being easier than 25, that's certainly true - but in 25 avoiding debuff abilities is significantly easier than in 10: fights like Lei Shen (static shock) and Blade Lord (wind step) is way easier to deal with in 25 than 10, where the same number of shocks go out - but you have 2.5 times the number of cooldowns (or more) to drop the debuff or solo it.

    Beyond that, while spreading out is certainly harder in 25 than 10, I can't think of many fights that make that big a deal of it anymore. The last 25m fight I remember that was super fussy about positioning was like... Deathbringer Saurfang - where you spent 15 minutes before the fight getting everyone to stand in precise spots so they weren't on each other, and then nobody could move for the duration of the fight. For the most part, newer raids have wanted raids to stack up rather than spread out to deal with certain mechanics - like static shock and empowered blizzard on troll council (where you have triple or quadruple the number of ranged to stack for the same damage blizzard).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-05-11 at 11:50 PM.
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  8. #68
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Regarding avoiding AoE abilities in 10 being easier than 25, that's certainly true - but in 25 avoiding debuff abilities is significantly easier than in 10: fights like Lei Shen (static shock) and Blade Lord (wind step) is way easier to deal with in 25 than 10, where the same number of shocks go out - but you have 2.5 times the number of cooldowns (or more) to drop the debuff or solo it.
    You don't avoid Static Shock, you immune it. If you can't immune it you run out and die, 'cause you can't risk the raid dmg in Phase 3. Check 10:07 / 11:39 here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Beyond that, while spreading out is certainly harder in 25 than 10, I can't think of many fights that make that big a deal of it anymore.
    We're discussing Lei Shen, not any other fight, because no other fight in the tier matters at all. And that fight is simply incomparably harder on 25M, starting from getting the required comp (full immunity raid, including 2 DK's, 2 Monks, 4 Warlocks and ranged DPS that doesn't loose dps from heavy movement), to every single fight mechanic (Intermissions, Diffusion Chain, Balls of Lightning, you name it) being immensely more punishing than it is in 10M, as it requires perfect timing and positioning from 25 people. Unlike where, for example, in 10M, not just that you don't have to focus on it, but you can simply ignore Balls of Lightning and nuke the boss as they're spawning.

    If you really want to discuss other bosses as well, just take a look at Ji-Kun and Iron Qon on 10M "heroic".
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    You don't avoid Static Shock, you immune it. If you can't immune it you run out and die, 'cause you can't risk the raid dmg in Phase 3. Check 10:07 / 11:39 here.

    We're discussing Lei Shen, not any other fight, because no other fight in the tier matters at all. And that fight is simply incomparably harder on 25M, starting from getting the required comp (full immunity raid, including 2 DK's, 2 Monks, 4 Warlocks and ranged DPS that doesn't loose dps from heavy movement), to every single fight mechanic (Intermissions, Diffusion Chain, Balls of Lightning, you name it) being immensely more punishing than it is in 10M, as it requires perfect timing and positioning from 25 people. Unlike where, for example, in 10M, not just that you don't have to focus on it, but you can simply ignore Balls of Lightning and nuke the boss as they're spawning.

    If you really want to discuss other bosses as well, just take a look at Ji-Kun and Iron Qon on 10M "heroic".
    Well when i saw you mentioned having a specific setup and you also say ball lightnings can be ignored, it kind of made me giggle for a few reasons. First of all ball lightning is a non-mechanic in 25 since yea as you said 2 dks = gg it is a necessity yes but any 25 man guild that cant get their hands on 2 decently geared dks i wont really take as a serious raiding guild, nuf said on that matter. and yea how hard is it really to get 2 monks and a part from that its not really a necessity RoP is a good spell but you could just as much use shadowfury and such, obviously monks are really strong as it is in every part of the encounter but a necessity ? nah, except for maybe the BrM tank but then again the same can be applied to 10 man there are many important classes in this fight, if you dont have a Dpriest you are at a disadvantage(obv now a days most 10 mans have figured this out and roll with Dpriests.) If you dont have a BrM/paladin tank you are pretty much screwed in so many ways its not even funny.
    For the ball lightning it needs to be handled in a very specific way in 10 man, whole P3 relies around it, because there is specific timings for everything when you can dance around the boss to cleave them down and when you need to be spread and when you need to get out for thunderstruck so the fight is just as complex as for 25 mans its just that you are only looking at numbers. And also do you really think 10 man guilds dont work with positioning and timings? You dont see everything in a video just because you heard exactly how method handled it in their video.
    The 1 thing that i do actually want to point out though with lei shen is that the encounter favors some classes so much more that if you have a perfectly stacked 10 man the fight is significantly easier than any way you do it in 25 man, obv 95% of the 10 mans dont have this but just as an example, if you have a BrM monk 2 Dks in your raid, 1 Dpriest and 2 warlocks and a mistweavermonk, the fight gets from an endboss to just another heroic boss. So if you have seen a 10 man kill it with that setup then yes they sure killed a fight that was way easier for them i wont ever deny it because not having to worry about ball lightning in 10 man + having the dps of the BrM monk and his healing and RoP and monk taunt ofc + the Dpriest awesome healing and dps, the warlock portals and survivability, mistweavers RoP and extra dps while still doin very good healing + being able to solo soak static shock as a healer class.
    If you miss all of these classes/specs though i cant even remotely say how screwed you are in a 10 man group haha xD so yes my point being, normallized i would say the difficulty seems to be the same although some 10 mans have an easier time than others and this is probably where you see the guilds killing it in 1 reset(which has happened). As a last thing to add PLZ dont ever state that the main mechanic of P3 is something you can simply ignore and is basically a non-mechanic, you just make a fool of yourself.
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  10. #70
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    First of all ball lightning is a non-mechanic in 25 since yea as you said 2 dks = gg
    You do realize that in P3 you literally have only 2 seconds after everyone teleporting to the middle after thunderstruck to perfectly spread 7 people around the boss, with them making a semi-circle within 20y of your tank, but also being spread 8y from each other, while in 10M it's 2 people who get the ball, and you don't even have to worry about it?
    And that getting a decent comp for the boss is a lot easier in 10M, since it's only 10 people that have to play the designated classes, compared to 25. Because if getting the perfect people to play the perfect comp in 25M was as easy as you make it sound, you yourself would be raiding 25M as well, instead of being stuck with 10.

    Seeing that even though you raid 10M, you still didn't kill it, the rest I didn't even bother reading lol.
    Last edited by veiledy0; 2013-05-12 at 02:33 AM.
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  11. #71
    Nevermind, keep the thread open. Watching people whine about 10 vs 25's is hilarious.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    You do realize that in P3 you literally have only 2 seconds after everyone teleporting to the middle after thunderstruck to perfectly spread 7 people around the boss, with them making a semi-circle within 20y of your tank, but also being spread 8y from each other, while in 10M it's 2 people who get the ball, and you don't even have to worry about it?
    And that getting a decent comp for the boss is a lot easier in 10M, since it's only 10 people that have to play the designated classes, compared to 25. Because if getting the perfect people to play the perfect comp in 25M was as easy as you make it sound, you yourself would be raiding 25M as well, instead of being stuck with 10.

    Seeing that even though you raid 10M, you still didn't kill it, the rest I didn't even bother reading lol.
    I think you have some misconceptions about 10H Lei Shen.

    Firstly, you are pretty much forced to have Chain Lightning and bouncy balls in 10H because there's no way you can have enough people to either immune static shock or die as you're forced to use immunities during transitions and dying is not possible with only 10 people. If one person is dead you aren't killing the boss.

    As a result you have to be spread for the entirety of P2 (P3, whatever) for chain lightning (which will spawn greater elementals), as well as have to be able to absorb bounces while the winds are going on. Not only do you have specific positioning requirements on 10H, you also have to be able to go and get 3 random orb bounces while winds are going on, and you are dealing with thunderstruck. In addition you only have 1/4th the platform for the boss + all the range. Not being able to move as range in the last phase and DPS is terrible because you're pretty much always moving. Also, due to having only 1/4th the platform, thunderstrucks will always deal more damage to the whole raid because it's close. Unless you have a comp that somehow has two warlocks (which in 10M means giving up at least one raid buff/debuff), you can't just port the raid away from the thunderstruck damage.



    Secondly, 2 people get ball lightning? Have you even SEEN a kill video? In the second first-phase somewhere between 2-8 balls can spawn, and in the last phase 8 balls will always spawn. My comment about ignoring the balls wasn't that people don't do damage. It was more referring to that we have to make the job substantially harder on our healers to be able to do the other fight mechanics at the same time. In the 2nd phase, (or 3rd phase, whatever) you'll have balls alive while a thunderstruck is going on, or you'll have balls + chain lightning from an add that can almost gib someone if they aren't perfectly spread out from the other people.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    You do realize that in P3 you literally have only 2 seconds after everyone teleporting to the middle after thunderstruck to perfectly spread 7 people around the boss, with them making a semi-circle within 20y of your tank, but also being spread 8y from each other, while in 10M it's 2 people who get the ball, and you don't even have to worry about it?
    And that getting a decent comp for the boss is a lot easier in 10M, since it's only 10 people that have to play the designated classes, compared to 25. Because if getting the perfect people to play the perfect comp in 25M was as easy as you make it sound, you yourself would be raiding 25M as well, instead of being stuck with 10.

    Seeing that even though you raid 10M, you still didn't kill it, the rest I didn't even bother reading lol.
    You really like to pick the wrong things and say they are hard, first of all if you spread with 8 yards range pre-ball lightning you are doing it wrong, the spawn damage is 6 yards and really Lei shen isnt about having a magnitude of the important classes, its about having them because 1-2 of them can do the job and in that sense its atleast just as hard for a 10 man to have them if not even harder, but making you believe such a thing will never happen i know so ill settle in between. Why im not raiding 25 man isnt really any of your business but then again i dont have a problem sharing it becuz my opinion is simple i think 25 mans are just way easier now a days, not to say that the lei shen 10 man heroic version is harder becuz thats not true imo but most other bosses in ToT i think are and we all have right to our own opinion but the way we show it is how we serious we will be taken and you are continuing to make a fool out of urself so Stahp, Stahp(and plz for the love of god no one wants to hear about pre-nerf 25 hc twins again.)

    Edit: I kind of giggled when reading 2 people would get ball lightning, if only haha
    Last edited by discmeedel; 2013-05-12 at 01:50 PM.
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  14. #74
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    Edit: I kind of giggled when reading 2 people would get ball lightning, if only haha
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    In the second first-phase somewhere between 2-8 balls can spawn
    As far as my number knowledge goes, 2 is a number contained in a span from 2 to 8.

    You can spend your entire life explaining how 10M is harder, but you'll never be really correct. 25M will always reign supreme on the raiding scene, for the sole reason that getting 25 people to play together at the same level will always be harder than getting 10. Blizz knows that pretty well. That's why 25M had better rewards than 10 back in the days, and why 25M is in decline now that rewards are equalized. And that's also why no 10M guild will ever be respected as much or heard of, besides Paragon (and them only being respected and known 'cause they were a 25M guild back in the days as well).
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    As far as my number knowledge goes, 2 is a number contained in a span from 2 to 8.

    You can spend your entire life explaining how 10M is harder, but you'll never be really correct. 25M will always reign supreme on the raiding scene, for the sole reason that getting 25 people to play together at the same level will always be harder than getting 10. Blizz knows that pretty well. That's why 25M had better rewards than 10 back in the days, and why 25M is in decline now that rewards are equalized. And that's also why no 10M guild will ever be respected as much or heard of, besides Paragon (and them only being respected and known 'cause they were a 25M guild back in the days as well).
    As i said in my previous post everyone has a right to their own opinion and seriously you if anyone should know not to post information that you dont know is true, the minimum amount of balls that spawn in 10 man is 3 but getting 3 to spawn is a pain in the ass becuz of chain lightning and i think even you can figure that out. For the other part of the post well its what you think personally i think 25 man is the easier version because it allows carrying, is my opinion the almighty truth though? No, its just what i think and the same is true with your opinion so you cant really state that no 10 man guilds will ever have respect because i personally respect the top 10 man guilds a lot higher than the 25 mans.
    Comparing wotlk to now is just.... yea im not even gonna answer that.
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  16. #76
    Nice, so to avoid a mechanic in 25man, you can just afford to let someone die! Try that on 10man.
    Last edited by Spazzeh; 2013-05-12 at 06:30 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by veiledy0 View Post
    As far as my number knowledge goes, 2 is a number contained in a span from 2 to 8.

    You can spend your entire life explaining how 10M is harder, but you'll never be really correct. 25M will always reign supreme on the raiding scene, for the sole reason that getting 25 people to play together at the same level will always be harder than getting 10. Blizz knows that pretty well. That's why 25M had better rewards than 10 back in the days, and why 25M is in decline now that rewards are equalized. And that's also why no 10M guild will ever be respected as much or heard of, besides Paragon (and them only being respected and known 'cause they were a 25M guild back in the days as well).
    I don't see how an administrative issue for the officer core of a guild means that the actual raiding content is harder. Also, doesn't the east see 10 as the more difficult difficulty? That said, we're starting to get into a 25 vs. 10 debate instead of a discussion on the difficulty of Lei Shen on the two difficulties.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I don't see how an administrative issue for the officer core of a guild means that the actual raiding content is harder. Also, doesn't the east see 10 as the more difficult difficulty? That said, we're starting to get into a 25 vs. 10 debate instead of a discussion on the difficulty of Lei Shen on the two difficulties.
    And I would point out the thread title, which means posts are waaaaay of base anyway.

    So...puppies. Yay or nay?

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    And I would point out the thread title, which means posts are waaaaay of base anyway.

    So...puppies. Yay or nay?
    I suppose.

    (I prefer Kittens personally )

  20. #80
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerbz View Post
    Nevermind, keep the thread open. Watching people whine about 10 vs 25's is hilarious.
    I don't have an issue with threads going off-topic once the topic has been covered sufficiently. Usually some of the best conversations occur not as the direct result of a question / new thread, but as the expansion of some other minutiae until it becomes contentious.
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