Thread: Fire trinkets?

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    5,592
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Exact reason why BotH is better if you lust on start with combustion. Given it needs to proc. Now Wush will be better if you count just overall time for fire, but as starting dps is more important than ever, BotH is just really strong. The difference is small though, so which ever you get as HC or HC-TF, don't replace them until same or better ilevel of the other trinket. Plus BotH is better for arcane in my mind.
    Granted, if you're talking pure pull DPS, assuming everything proccs, you get TEN seconds on Legendary Meta and Cha-Ye (your BiS trinket), and TWELVE seconds on Jade Spirit. I wonder which one's going to be stronger seeing as how to get on Breath of Hydra's level, Wush needs to scale up to 5-6. By that point, you'll lose the Meta and CY proccs, which is a significant DPS loss (granted, Wush at 10 stacks = CY + Breath, but only for 2 seconds).

    Wush is simply TOO RNG to use to its full potential, plus Haste > Hit (especially with these RPPM items). Hit grants us 0 Haste as we'll just turn all we can into Crit, while we get 60% of the Haste from Breath guaranteed (since, well, you can only reforge 40% into Crit ).

    Also something I think people vastly ignore: Crit Haste > Crit Hit.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 01:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    now all of this talk about timing combustions and how rng the trinket is, it really isn't that bad and procs ALL THE TIME, regardless of wether it is bis or not, if you have a shot at this trinket, get it it isn't going to be a dps loss over what you have
    - Wushoolay’s Final Choice – 0.588 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful abilities and spells, and periodic spells. 22 sec ICD..
    - Breath of the Hydra – 0.525 RealPPM on damage/absorb from periodic spell. No ICD.

    Besides the ICD being pretty cool IMO, I don't see how compared to Breath that it proccs "all the time". Breath rarely ever proccs for me, personally, so with a slightly bump in the RPPM, I don't see how it'll be that much better.

    I'll agree that it's DEFINITELY not a DPS loss if it's to replace anything other than CY or Breath (again, debatable); UVLS, SPA Trinket, LotC, EoT, RoY, etc are all obviously worse than it, there's no denying that. The only problem I have is trying to line up a Combustion with HU/HS, Trinkets, and its own cooldown already. I really don't want to have to babysit stacks as well, but I would like to give it a try if a second Wush drops (well, a first one for our Lock, actually).

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    FFXIV Stuff: i94WHM/i90 SCH/i83 BRD; T1-4, Garuda/Titan/Ifrit Xs

  2. #22
    Two things I have to say about your post dragon, not disagreeing or agreeing, just throwing out another point of view, pure pull dps isn't really the be all end all of your dps, I am often the third of three mages for the beginning of the fight and come back at the end due to better sustained damage, also while haste crit>hit crit for a haste build, what about those of us who stack mastery over haste? Does this change the value of BotH and Wushoo?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    - Wushoolay’s Final Choice – 0.588 RealPPM on damage/absorb from harmful abilities and spells, and periodic spells. 22 sec ICD..
    So, am I hallucinating when I see Wushoo's proc overwrite itself? I swear I've seen it happen numerous times

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffman View Post
    So, am I hallucinating when I see Wushoo's proc overwrite itself? I swear I've seen it happen numerous times
    Alter time can cause this due to the ICD being spent then the trinket resetting to what it was at 6 seconds ago

    @dragon, it may be because of 541 wushoo that its proccing so much, afaik higher ilvl=better ppm if I understand the system right

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    5,592
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Two things I have to say about your post dragon, not disagreeing or agreeing, just throwing out another point of view, pure pull dps isn't really the be all end all of your dps, I am often the third of three mages for the beginning of the fight and come back at the end due to better sustained damage, also while haste crit>hit crit for a haste build, what about those of us who stack mastery over haste? Does this change the value of BotH and Wushoo?
    Oh I agree with that as well, but buffing your Fireball DPS doesn't do all that much. Now if between Combustions, you get a fair sum of Pyroblasts, then yes, that will definitely be a significant boost. I always enjoy seeing those 400-500k Crit Pyros <3

    Um... People stack Mastery over Haste? I wasn't aware of that... Especially now that our Trinkets (and Meta) scale with Haste...

    (Regardless, I'll play along ), I'd personally still say Haste > Hit, even for Mastery stackers because you still get additional Haste towards your RPPM. Now if you just flatout don't care about Haste (which I honestly cannot fathom WHY anyone would choose this method, but whatever), then the only 'value' that changes is the passive stat-stick, which, tbh, doesn't matter in the slightest (because I'm sure you're going to have plenty of Hit or Haste to reforge INTO Hit on your gear anyways) unless you somehow, magically, are losing Mastery (your second stat, in your scenario) to Hit reforging due to being under the Hit cap.

    What it all boils down to: Wush and Breath are very close together. I think ONE thing we can all agree on is that Cha-Ye's is fucking amazing and is definitely our #1 BiS trinket due to the AMAZING amount of Crit it brings, on top of the "Proccs on Crits" and insanely high RPPM it has over any other trinket (to make up for that abysmal 50% duration ;_. Wush and Breath, regardless of which one you pick, is going to be your second BiS trinket. Whichever one truly pulls ahead is going to be up for debate for awhile as Wush is just more RNG based and on average, grants the same Intellect as Breath does.

    The only argument that I personally have for saying that Wush would be better (in the grand scheme of things) is that when I play Frost (which I do on three boss fights), I would use Wush for three reasons:

    1. If I use Frost Bomb (Dungeons/CMs), I don't have to switch my fucking trinkets anymore [Seriously, that shit drove me nuts]
    2. Don't have to 100% fret about NT [Something that I still have some trouble with when Flying on Ji-Kun]
    3. Ice Lance/FFB bonanza at stack 9/10

    Other than that though, I will continue to argue that the two are exceedingly close. Wush will pull ahead if you get good RNG, or will fall behind if you get bad RNG.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 02:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Puffman View Post
    So, am I hallucinating when I see Wushoo's proc overwrite itself? I swear I've seen it happen numerous times
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Alter time can cause this due to the ICD being spent then the trinket resetting to what it was at 6 seconds ago
    Alter Time is, in fact, the only way for Wush to be reset. Methinks we should sent a post to blizzard asking for a 5s increase to the ICD (to make it 27s; AT +1s grace period) over this. [Please note that I DO NOT have Wushoolay on my Mage, and am unable to test that. I'm only going by assumptions and speculation, so do not quote me on that, but it's highly likely that AT is the cause]

    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    @dragon, it may be because of 541 wushoo that its proccing so much, afaik higher ilvl=better ppm if I understand the system right
    That's actually false. Higher iLevel = Better RPPM on SPECIFIC trinkets. UVLS being the only one of ours* that works like that (because regardless of the iLevel, it gives the same proc: 100% Crit for 4 seconds). The other one is Rune of Reorigination (which is probably the COOLEST damn trinket I've ever seen, but, sadly, is not for us) [www.wowhead.com/item=94532 to learn more about it]

    For anyone curious about the iLevel differences on UVLS and RoR:
    541 ilevel = 112.88% proc multiplier
    535 ilevel = 106.74% proc multiplier
    528 ilevel = 100.00% proc multiplier
    522 ilevel = 94.56% proc multiplier
    502 ilevel = 78.49% proc multiplier
    463 ilevel = 54.57% proc multiplier
    (REMEMBER: THESE ARE ONLY FOR UVLS AND RoR! THESE DO NOT AFFECT ANY TRINKETS WE WOULD ACTUALLY USE)

    *Ours as in Caster trinkets. Not that we'd EVER use that fucking garbage! You'd have to be pretty dumb, or super unlucky (and have NOTHING else) to ever bother with it.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-05-11 at 06:17 PM.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    FFXIV Stuff: i94WHM/i90 SCH/i83 BRD; T1-4, Garuda/Titan/Ifrit Xs

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Oh I agree with that as well, but buffing your Fireball DPS doesn't do all that much. Now if between Combustions, you get a fair sum of Pyroblasts, then yes, that will definitely be a significant boost. I always enjoy seeing those 400-500k Crit Pyros <3

    Um... People stack Mastery over Haste? I wasn't aware of that... Especially now that our Trinkets (and Meta) scale with Haste...
    I actually use mastery (stacking haste only to attainable breakpoints, whether this is actually better or not I don't know but it feels strong for cleave as ignite is affected only by mastery and not haste) Now I'm not one to get overly into theorycrafting but I've always felt stat values set by simcraft were kind of stupid since it's all done in a vacuum, we always have cleave targets and movement, but putting this aside your argument for rppm trinkets being influenced by haste does make sense but at that point it is so insignificant imo that it's worth just stacking the stat that I feel does more damage regardless of trinket.

    there you go, I just admitted to stacking mastery, let the hate pour in i guess

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    5,592
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    I actually use mastery (stacking haste only to attainable breakpoints, whether this is actually better or not I don't know but it feels strong for cleave as ignite is affected only by mastery and not haste) Now I'm not one to get overly into theorycrafting but I've always felt stat values set by simcraft were kind of stupid since it's all done in a vacuum, we always have cleave targets and movement, but putting this aside your argument for rppm trinkets being influenced by haste does make sense but at that point it is so insignificant imo that it's worth just stacking the stat that I feel does more damage regardless of trinket.

    there you go, I just admitted to stacking mastery, let the hate pour in i guess
    No hate, just confusion.

    While haste barely affects the things that it affects, it simply affects SO many things that it is overall good.

    - Decreases cast time of Fireball and Invocation (or RoP if you're some weird guy who dislikes mobility)
    - Increases RPPM
    - Decreases intervals between tick periods of DoTs/increases number of DoTs per DoT cast (huge for DPET) [Ignite excluded]
    - Lowers GCD of all spells to a minimum of 1s (down from a maximum of 1.5s)
    -- GREATLY increases Combustion (based on the things above)
    --- Increases ticks of Combustion, interval at which they tick, and allows you to throw Pyros faster; every fraction of a second saved can (and at least for me, does) benefit when you're throwing a bazillion Pyros during an Alter Time.
    - [Edit] One thing I forgot to mention that Haste NEGATIVELY does is, well, having too much of it during Heroism/Meta proc. If you cast Fireball TOO fast, you may have to /stopcasting (loss of DPS) or lose a HS/HU (further loss of DPS). It's actually a problem I have with Frost, especially when geared for it correctly (HP>CP>M>C>H) instead of using it as my Fire's OS (C>H>M)

    I can see Mastery better for those wanting to do the easier form of Combustion where you just get two crit Pyros and launch it, but if I do Mast over Haste, then the Alter Time method doesn't work as effectively. I also wasn't following SimCraft (because it's retarded and also overvalues our L90 talents, making us "look" overpowered and having other classes screaming NERF MAGES! even though we're by NO means #1 on WoL unless we get some divine source of luck), I was simply under the impression that Mastery just doesn't scale well enough to be worth going for. I mean, if I'm handed free Mastery (e.g., Blessing of Might/8% Speed enchant for boots), I'm not going to say no, just, I don't think it's worth going over Haste.

    (Out of curiosity, what's a "good" and "average" Combustion tick for you, and do you use the PoM/AT or 2 consecutive Pyro Crit method?)

    Edit: Thinking of that edit I added to my list, I might have to try Mastery over Haste...
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2013-05-11 at 08:01 PM.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    FFXIV Stuff: i94WHM/i90 SCH/i83 BRD; T1-4, Garuda/Titan/Ifrit Xs

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    (Out of curiosity, what's a "good" and "average" Combustion tick for you, and do you use the PoM/AT or 2 consecutive Pyro Crit method?)
    For a good combustion (usually on the pull with trinkets and w/e) I'll see between 140(decent)-190(if I'm lucky, I usually just let combustion rip at 140-150k to not get greedy and get a non crit to fuck it up) ignite ticks so that would be about a 70k-95k tick, as for my average combustion (no AT just PoM pyros) about 65-70k, though I sometimes even get pretty lucky with those.
    Regardless having mastery that high I keep an average of about a 40k ignite rolling for the majority of most fights
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11147&e=11725 in case you were REALLY interested, here is my qon kill from this week, my average ignite tick is 13k higher than the next highest mage and my average combust tick/crits are nearly double
    Last edited by voltaa; 2013-05-11 at 08:36 PM.

  9. #29
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    5,592
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    For a good combustion (usually on the pull with trinkets and w/e) I'll see between 140(decent)-190(if I'm lucky, I usually just let combustion rip at 140-150k to not get greedy and get a non crit to fuck it up) ignite ticks so that would be about a 70k-95k tick, as for my average combustion (no AT just PoM pyros) about 65-70k, though I sometimes even get pretty lucky with those.
    Regardless having mastery that high I keep an average of about a 40k ignite rolling for the majority of most fights
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11147&e=11725 in case you were REALLY interested, here is my qon kill from this week, my average ignite tick is 13k higher than the next highest mage and my average combust tick/crits are nearly double
    ........ Well dicks.

    My current all-time record (without Tricks from a Rogue or any outside help, such as Horridon's debuff or Primordius buffs) is 66,999 on Durumu :/

    Do you do PoM/AT or just 2 Crit Pyros and let it rip? If the latter, I might look into doing C>M>H.

    Edit: Wait, I looked through the Qon fight and I'm seeing average ticks around 62k... I thought you said average was 140-150? (Or did you mean Ignites?)

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    FFXIV Stuff: i94WHM/i90 SCH/i83 BRD; T1-4, Garuda/Titan/Ifrit Xs

  10. #30
    I PoM/AT when it is up but always always always wait til I have a HS and a HU then que up a fireball then ass that flys to the boss start my macro, it always seems to work for me, now as far as my ticks compared to your ticks, keep in mind that I am also fairly geared so many times I can just spam pyros for the full six seconds of AT and pcik and choose when I want to combust, but maybe all of this warrants another thread since I kind of hijacked the trinket discussion here so...uhhh WUSHOOLAY'S FTW

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    5,592
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    I PoM/AT when it is up but always always always wait til I have a HS and a HU then que up a fireball then ass that flys to the boss start my macro, it always seems to work for me, now as far as my ticks compared to your ticks, keep in mind that I am also fairly geared so many times I can just spam pyros for the full six seconds of AT and pcik and choose when I want to combust, but maybe all of this warrants another thread since I kind of hijacked the trinket discussion here so...uhhh WUSHOOLAY'S FTW
    Oh, okay, you're like 9 iLevels ahead of me :| Also with a Heroic TF Wand >_>; (what's weird though is your crit's lower than mine but *shrug*)

    YEAH SORRY ABOUT THAT. WHAT THIS ALL BOILS DOWN TO IS BREF IS BETR METHINKS.

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    FFXIV Stuff: i94WHM/i90 SCH/i83 BRD; T1-4, Garuda/Titan/Ifrit Xs

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Oh, okay, you're like 9 iLevels ahead of me :| Also with a Heroic TF Wand >_>; (what's weird though is your crit's lower than mine but *shrug*)

    YEAH SORRY ABOUT THAT. WHAT THIS ALL BOILS DOWN TO IS BREF IS BETR METHINKS.
    Ya my crit is lower due to you having BS as a prof over my JC/Ench since I replace what would be 320 crit with int and you get an extra crit gem over me beyond that with your extra sockets

  13. #33
    I am Murloc! Polarthief's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    (USA) Florida
    Posts
    5,592
    Quote Originally Posted by voltaa View Post
    Ya my crit is lower due to you having BS as a prof over my JC/Ench since I replace what would be 320 crit with int and you get an extra crit gem over me beyond that with your extra sockets
    It's not just Blacksmithing; Cha-Ye is a huge portion of that rating

    But we're half-derailing at this point (only half because we're talking about "Fire" but not "Trinkets" XD), so I sent ya a PM

    Retired Veteran Raider: [T14] 10/16H, [T15] 12/13H, [T16] 7/14H
    FFXIV Stuff: i94WHM/i90 SCH/i83 BRD; T1-4, Garuda/Titan/Ifrit Xs

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •