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  1. #1

    Haste or Crit Moonkin

    I am doing a mass reforge and am wondering should i try to hit the 10th tick haste cap of 5200 or should i leave as is or lower and go hard into crit. I wasnt at haste cap before today from when i lost my set but my haste was at 3800 and i was pulling decent sometimes amazing dps. I cant post any links yet but i am volcrom on exodar..horde

  2. #2
    Bloodsail Admiral Rustweaver's Avatar
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    Haste to hit the first cap then dump the rest in to Crit or mastery/spirit to haste if the item already has crit.
    Haste (cap) > Crit > Haste > Mastery
    A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.

  3. #3
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rustweaver View Post
    Haste to hit the first cap then dump the rest in to Crit or haste, depending on the stats.

    Haste (cap) > Crit > Haste > Mastery
    If you aren't in heroic gear, just stick with the 5273 haste cap then dump your points into crit. If you are, then you should go up to the 10289 breakpoint.

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    Brewmaster Wiyld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    If you aren't in heroic gear, just stick with the 5273 haste cap then dump your points into crit. If you are, then you should go up to the 10289 breakpoint.
    So i got a couple more 522 upgrades recently and was looking at my gear, I'm pretty certain I could reach the 10289 breakpoint. Now, I'm not in any heroic gear, just a mix of t15 reg/lfr 522's and 502/503 stuff, just got my T15 2 piece. I've always just done the basic crit build as outlined above, but I've been considering trying the haste build. It will of course require a large investment in gems/reforge so I'm not willing to just do it for funsies.

    So I guess my questions is,

    Is it really that significant that dropping a huge amount of crit in order to reach the 10k break is worth it? I'm currently at about 30% crit self buffed, but I'll have to lose a LOT of it.

    I used to use RAWR to test builds and gear sets but since it isn't being maintained I'm kinda lost as to the more specific gearing decisions. I can follow standard doctrine but when it comes to actual stat values to my current gear I'm just really lost.




    Also, sorry to steal the thread, I just have a relevant question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillern View Post
    "IM LOOKING AT A THING I DONT LIKE, I HAVE THE OPTION TO GO AWAY FROM IT BUT I WILL LOOK MORE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE THING I DONT LIKE BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT, NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO SEARCH FOR THIS THING OR LOOK AT THIS THING OR REMAIN LOOKING AT THIS THING BUT I AM ANYWAY, ITS OFFENDS ME! ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"
    Troof

  5. #5
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiyld View Post
    So i got a couple more 522 upgrades recently and was looking at my gear, I'm pretty certain I could reach the 10289 breakpoint. Now, I'm not in any heroic gear, just a mix of t15 reg/lfr 522's and 502/503 stuff, just got my T15 2 piece. I've always just done the basic crit build as outlined above, but I've been considering trying the haste build. It will of course require a large investment in gems/reforge so I'm not willing to just do it for funsies.

    So I guess my questions is,

    Is it really that significant that dropping a huge amount of crit in order to reach the 10k break is worth it? I'm currently at about 30% crit self buffed, but I'll have to lose a LOT of it.

    I used to use RAWR to test builds and gear sets but since it isn't being maintained I'm kinda lost as to the more specific gearing decisions. I can follow standard doctrine but when it comes to actual stat values to my current gear I'm just really lost.




    Also, sorry to steal the thread, I just have a relevant question.
    For your gear, I'd probably advise against shooting for the 10289 breakpoint just because you don't have that many secondary stats to throw around. You've only just got the 5273 breakpoint and a little under 10k crit rating - to hit the 10289 breakpoint you'd go down to almost 5k crit rating, meaning your SS procs will be incessantly random. I'd say wait until you've got some heroic pieces and 522/528 elsewhere, and you should have enough passive haste to make the switch with relative ease. 5.3 upgrades will also help with that.

  6. #6
    Does the caster legendary Meta, considering the high uptime, in any way influence the value of haste? and the haste caps?

  7. #7
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nenaunir View Post
    Does the caster legendary Meta, considering the high uptime, in any way influence the value of haste? and the haste caps?
    Devalues the haste breakpoint a bit, but doesn't lower the value of haste itself much. 1 point of haste is still higher than crit for single-target, and with SS proc waste it's most likely better for multi-target as well, or at least equal.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster Wiyld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    For your gear, I'd probably advise against shooting for the 10289 breakpoint just because you don't have that many secondary stats to throw around. You've only just got the 5273 breakpoint and a little under 10k crit rating - to hit the 10289 breakpoint you'd go down to almost 5k crit rating, meaning your SS procs will be incessantly random. I'd say wait until you've got some heroic pieces and 522/528 elsewhere, and you should have enough passive haste to make the switch with relative ease. 5.3 upgrades will also help with that.
    cool, thank you



    I mentioned Rawr no longer being useful, could you suggest a similarly functioning tool? I've played around with Mr. Robot but I get the impression that without custom stat weights it isn't giving me very good suggestions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillern View Post
    "IM LOOKING AT A THING I DONT LIKE, I HAVE THE OPTION TO GO AWAY FROM IT BUT I WILL LOOK MORE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE THING I DONT LIKE BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT, NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO SEARCH FOR THIS THING OR LOOK AT THIS THING OR REMAIN LOOKING AT THIS THING BUT I AM ANYWAY, ITS OFFENDS ME! ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"
    Troof

  9. #9
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiyld View Post
    cool, thank you



    I mentioned Rawr no longer being useful, could you suggest a similarly functioning tool? I've played around with Mr. Robot but I get the impression that without custom stat weights it isn't giving me very good suggestions.
    WrathCalcs is probably the most accurate model for boomkins that works on a base level of single-target no movement.

    http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-...rathcalcs/p55/

    It's updated regularly and used for a number of purposes. The first post in that thread should help you to figure it out!

  10. #10
    High Overlord Souxlya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Devalues the haste breakpoint a bit, but doesn't lower the value of haste itself much. 1 point of haste is still higher than crit for single-target, and with SS proc waste it's most likely better for multi-target as well, or at least equal.
    Since about 32% crit (after the -3%, so 37% raid buffed) and getting Breath of the Hydra I've had haste pull ahead of crit all the time, even when adjusting the SS proc wastage. Could you give around about number of crit with the -3% to aim for? I only have 1 heroic bit of gear, but sitting at 525 ilevel. Feels like I am reforging/gemming wrong between Wrathcalcs haste ahead, and your crit ahead calculations.

    Other then knowing crit > haste for movement (to a point), I'm getting pretty lost and having trouble finding that "point" when haste overtakes crit completely.

    Edit: Forgot to mention I also have the meta, and only have 2 set t15.
    Last edited by Souxlya; 2013-04-27 at 03:23 AM.

  11. #11
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Souxlya View Post
    Since about 32% crit (after the -3%, so 37% raid buffed) and getting Breath of the Hydra I've had haste pull ahead of crit all the time, even when adjusting the SS proc wastage. Could you give around about number of crit with the -3% to aim for? I only have 1 heroic bit of gear, but sitting at 525 ilevel. Feels like I am reforging/gemming wrong between Wrathcalcs haste ahead, and your crit ahead calculations.

    Other then knowing crit > haste for movement (to a point), I'm getting pretty lost and having trouble finding that "point" when haste overtakes crit completely.

    Edit: Forgot to mention I also have the meta, and only have 2 set t15.
    There's no real "point", just a movement from the crit-based stacking builds to hitting the GCD cap first, then stacking crit. That was introduced with the SS proc waste on WrathCalcs, which further devalued crit more than the other stats. The reason I don't advise switching with low gear is because typically you wont see 20% of your SS procs wasted because there's a big gap between procs, even with multidotting. Typically we've also said crit > haste for multidotting, as it meant more SS procs, but you can see that's also affected by SS proc waste.

    So basically I can't give you a hard number to shoot for. I say ~heroic gear simply because at that point people are at around 7-8k haste normally and you don't sacrifice much crit to cap out your haste at 10296. Though, many boomkins have been doing well by hitting the 10296 breakpoint and having their crit sit at around 7k, so it seems to work for them. There isn't much of a difference, around 1-2% DPS, and you're more likely to see higher variance in your DPS just from trinkets proccing more often or less than normal.

    If you made me give you a number, I'd say 12k crit. At that point you've got 40% crit raid buffed with the 3% suppression, and you'll more than likely see higher SS proc waste than the standard 20%. My character's got 10.8k crit, so with Cha-Ye's or another upgrade somewhere I'll more than likely start going for the GCD cap first. Haste does favour DoTs more than crit does, and our eclipse-buffed DoT is our strongest multi-target spell, so it's reasonable to think haste is still an important stat for multidotting.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Souxlya's Avatar
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    Thanks for the fast response and clarity. I just have one more question on this, having to do with Wrathcalcs SS wastage.

    To my understanding to calculate the % of wasted procs you are supposed to find your refreshed procs number, and then divide that in into your actually procs number.

    Example being 78 refreshed into 225 procs, so 78/225 = 0.3

    With that said, I'm getting confused at how to put this into Wrathcalcs. Because when I put in a number like 0.3 the change in stat weights isn't huge, but enough it makes sense. But if you have a larger number like, 2.8, this seems to skew the weights a great deal. Leading me to think my lackluster math skills are failing me, even more so when I see you given out full %'s like 10%-20%.

    I know its silly, but could you give me an exact run down of how you calculate your % value?

  13. #13
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Souxlya View Post
    Thanks for the fast response and clarity. I just have one more question on this, having to do with Wrathcalcs SS wastage.

    To my understanding to calculate the % of wasted procs you are supposed to find your refreshed procs number, and then divide that in into your actually procs number.

    Example being 78 refreshed into 225 procs, so 78/225 = 0.3

    With that said, I'm getting confused at how to put this into Wrathcalcs. Because when I put in a number like 0.3 the change in stat weights isn't huge, but enough it makes sense. But if you have a larger number like, 2.8, this seems to skew the weights a great deal. Leading me to think my lackluster math skills are failing me, even more so when I see you given out full %'s like 10%-20%.

    I know its silly, but could you give me an exact run down of how you calculate your % value?
    0.2 equates to 20% of your SS procs were wasted. Anything above 1.0 is nonsensical - that would mean you're wasting more SS procs than you're gaining, which doesn't make sense. For practical purposes, it should range between 0.2-0.3, but it doesn't have to be a number you've found from WoL yourself. I typically analyse gear pieces and talent choices with 20% SS procs being wasted, as I feel that's a decent number. It's something I've seen as an average for a lot of boomies as I've gone over logs, so I stick with it.

    And I'm happy to answer any questions. If you have any more, let me know!

  14. #14
    High Overlord Souxlya's Avatar
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    No that is perfect! Thanks for all of your help, and all of the wonderful work you do for us Boomies across the board =).

    /big hopefully none creepy internet hugs <3.

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    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post

    And I'm happy to answer any questions. If you have any more, let me know!
    Why a blue pony?

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  16. #16
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Why a blue pony?
    Rainbow Dash is best pony, of course.

  17. #17
    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Rainbow Dash is best pony, of course.
    WTF is Rainbow Dash o.O

    and fyi, I just swapped to a haste build, gonna test it out in TOT tonight!!

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  18. #18
    I would like some opinions, particularly from slippykins if he could help :P

    Here is my armory link: eu battle net/wow/en/character/stormscale/Whimz/advanced

    Should I go for the 10296 haste breakpoint since I'm within range or just keep stacking that crit?

    I've tried simming with simcraft and I'm not trusting the results, also I'm not too familiar with Wrathcalcs either.

    Any help would be very much appreciated, and please try to explain the reasonings why if possible.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    WTF is Rainbow Dash o.O

    and fyi, I just swapped to a haste build, gonna test it out in TOT tonight!!
    ^ this.
    Got up to 18 secrets aswell. If i get lucky should get meta this week

    Just nabbed shoulder token from LFR, should net me some more overall haste/crit
    With regards to the 10289 (10296 cap aswel) what should I be aiming for crit wise for an absolute minimum?
    Last edited by Drayarr; 2013-05-02 at 01:23 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    If you made me give you a number, I'd say 12k crit. At that point you've got 40% crit raid buffed with the 3% suppression,
    What is this 3% crit suppression you and the above poster are referring to?

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