Thread: HotW Guardian

  1. #1

    HotW Guardian

    On the bosses where it doesn't require 2 tanks from the start i usually start with HotW and spam wrath like a maniac. Yesterday i got Suen-Wo, Spire of the Falling Sun, now i wonder should i just put 2x 160 int in it or should i gem something else for example crit ?

    On prepull i use an agi potion, is this correct or should i use an int potion ?

    also should i reforge haste or master ? atm i reforged the mastery to crit

    Any advice is appreciate

    Jeva,

  2. #2
    First of all gratz on the Staff.

    Now first of all use an int pot as prepot if you spam HotW-wrath at the start. you should gem int. Reforging that to haste or crit doesnt really matter that much. I favor crit cause on pulls you will most likely get a critbanner.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Jeva you are correct
    Agi is still beter then interlect for wrath spamming

    Becase:
    You get 5% extra agi out of leather specilisation
    and all Agi is converted to nature spellpower on a 1 on 1 base just like interlect
    so that the 5% extra from leather spcialisation makes agi better

    so gem a +160 agi gem in it

    And reforge the mastery into crit as mastery does nothing at all for spell casts

    (best enchant for it is still jade spirit as dancing steel does not proc on spell casts)
    Last edited by Elunedra; 2013-05-07 at 07:05 AM.
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    Jeva you are correct
    Agi is still beter then interlect for wrath spamming

    Becase:
    You get 5% extra agi out of leather specilisation
    and all Agi is converted to nature spellpower on a 1 on 1 base just like interlect
    so that the 5% extra from leather spcialisation makes agi better

    so gem a +160 agi gem in it

    And reforge the mastery into crit as mastery does nothing at all for spell casts

    (best enchant for it is still jade spirit as dancing steel does not proc on spell casts)
    I thought that you got more crit per point for int and that made int better for hotw spam. I might be misinformed though.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    Jeva you are correct
    Agi is still beter then interlect for wrath spamming

    Becase:
    You get 5% extra agi out of leather specilisation
    and all Agi is converted to nature spellpower on a 1 on 1 base just like interlect
    so that the 5% extra from leather spcialisation makes agi better

    so gem a +160 agi gem in it

    And reforge the mastery into crit as mastery does nothing at all for spell casts

    (best enchant for it is still jade spirit as dancing steel does not proc on spell casts)
    That is not true.
    As Guardian you get 5% more stamina not agi.
    So gemming int and using int procc is far superior.

    Int is gives you the exact same amount as agi but also gives you crit. Int pot is about 1.5% crit.

    So again using int gems and Int pots while using HotW is alot better.

    And even if you use it as a feral you have to be in the form to get the 5% agi which you are clearly not when you are casting wrath. so even there int is still better

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    oke i was thinking guardians has same specilisation as Ferals, but i was wrong then yes int be better

    but for ferals, agi is better becase they do not have to be in cat form to get it: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=86097
    Last edited by Elunedra; 2013-05-07 at 08:53 AM.
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    oke i was thinking guardians has same specilisation as Ferals, but i was wrong then yes int be better

    but for ferals, agi is better becase they do not have to be in cat form to get it: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=86097
    ok both wrong on some part. tied on that

  8. #8
    The "best" way to HotW is to start in Cat and use an Agility pot:

    1) Build 5 cp before using HotW
    2) Let energy regen
    3) Zerk/HotW/Agi pot
    4) Rip
    5) Rake
    6) Mangle / FB spam
    7) Once energy is drained and zerk is over swap to a caster weapon and spam Wrath

    I'm toying with whether it's efficient to shift back into cat again after energy has regenerated but need SimC to sort out their bugs first.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    The "best" way to HotW is to start in Cat and use an Agility pot:

    1) Build 5 cp before using HotW
    2) Let energy regen
    3) Zerk/HotW/Agi pot
    4) Rip
    5) Rake
    6) Mangle / FB spam
    7) Once energy is drained and zerk is over swap to a caster weapon and spam Wrath

    I'm toying with whether it's efficient to shift back into cat again after energy has regenerated but need SimC to sort out their bugs first.
    how much dps gain are we talking about hereis it worht it to let a trinket drop before hotw is even started. i mean 5cp plus energie regen thats about 10seconds, you will miss out on one pot during the fight. Is it really worth it not taking the pre pot, have a trinket proc while building 5cp and and energy regen. then take the pot plus hotw. Even if its a small dmg increase, the second pot with incarnation does alot of dmg aswell. Just curious, way to lazy to actually do it^^.


    EDIT: Just tested it on dummy had around 40k more dps with wraith only, only ran them twice so not very accurate, while building up my cp my trinket procced, and i wasted 9 seconds until hotw popped. both totaly unbuffed. To make it clear was just testing it on a dummy may not be very accurate but 40k is a big difference
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-07 at 03:35 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    how much dps gain are we talking about hereis it worht it to let a trinket drop before hotw is even started. i mean 5cp plus energie regen thats about 10seconds, you will miss out on one pot during the fight. Is it really worth it not taking the pre pot, have a trinket proc while building 5cp and and energy regen. then take the pot plus hotw. Even if its a small dmg increase, the second pot with incarnation does alot of dmg aswell. Just curious, way to lazy to actually do it^^.


    EDIT: Just tested it on dummy had around 40k more dps with wraith only, only ran them twice so not very accurate, while building up my cp my trinket procced, and i wasted 9 seconds until hotw popped. both totaly unbuffed. To make it clear was just testing it on a dummy may not be very accurate but 40k is a big difference
    If you are using the physical dps legendary meta gem that will benefit cat form dps while it won't do anything for wrath spam. So that should also be taking into account imo

  11. #11
    I've only toyed around with combining both, since depending on the encounter I prefer to either Wrath spam or go kitty. I know that the bleeds/FB usage with HotW are much lower than pure Wrath spamming, I just haven't cared enough to see if the auto-attack damage from HotW kitty was enough to push it over. It appears on average for me that pure Wrath spamming will beat pure kitty solidly, the real question is if the hybrid of the two would make a sizable difference.

    I'm really tempted to think that there's so much RNG involved with Wrath spam that even simulations would have a sizable delta in damage in such a small window of time. Some openings I get amazing Wrath crits with pots/banner/procs nonstop... others I could have RoR proc'd and not crit a single Wrath (and the drop in haste w/ no crits makes me cry). Opening as kitty with HotW seems a bit more stable, probably because the damage is spread amongst so many damage instances/abilities that it averages out better.

    All that being said, I just pulled up a parse of H Horridon where I used HotW as kitty until I had to run over for adds. It's under 30 seconds in length, and I didn't use an agility pot since someone precasted a little early... but it's better than nothing! I did spike around 130k DPS, and I didn't get to use FB (looks like I had bad crits and figured I'd just bleed and run to pre-position). Damage breakdown was Melee (485k) > Rake (451k) > Rip (404k) > Lightning Strikes (360k) > Mangle (343k), overall roughly 2mil damage in a truncated/non-optimal situation. For Wrath spamming, I average on full HotW burns between 5.5mil - 7.5mil with pot/caster weapon (usually with Heroism/Bloodlust/Timewarp... sometimes the mages are slow).

    While all this information is based off of my gear alone and, again, highly subjective to RNG, I've found that Wrath spamming is generally the way to go as Guardian when I don't have to move. If I need to move quite a bit or my HotW DPS burn will be interrupted by actually having to tank, I tend to just settle with doing kitty DPS instead. If anything, I believe the legendary DPS meta actually improved kitty DPS while under HotW substantially (roughly 17% in the case listed above) and could be the determining factor in a proper kitty burn if it can actually beat Wrath spamming or make hybridization better.

    How about this: I'll make an effort this week to do full HotW kitty burns as much as possible and post about what happens. Likely won't be much, since our strats have me tanking quite excessively... hey, my Guardian DPS is good by itself, sue me!
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  12. #12
    The thing is that Cat's sustained DPS is much lower than simply spamming Wrath. The key is timing it with high stacks of Renataki and/or other trinkets and a potion on the initial Rip & Rake. Once Berserk is gone you should definitely spam wrath over using Cat thanks to our terrible energy and combo point generation.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    The thing is that Cat's sustained DPS is much lower than simply spamming Wrath. The key is timing it with high stacks of Renataki and/or other trinkets and a potion on the initial Rip & Rake. Once Berserk is gone you should definitely spam wrath over using Cat thanks to our terrible energy and combo point generation.
    That's likely the largest determining factor in the viability of the HotW kitty bleeds: how many procs/buffs you can line up to make them effective. However, such procs likely just make the Wrath casts that could be done instead of applying bleeds that much more powerful since there is decent ramp-up time to getting both Rake and Rip up. At this point I think one would just have to be lucky to make the bleeds more effective, suppose we can wait to see how your sims work out.
    *Since I'm tired of reposting the link:* EH vs TTL and Hybrid Tax

  14. #14
    That's likely the largest determining factor in the viability of the HotW kitty bleeds: how many procs/buffs you can line up to make them effective. However, such procs likely just make the Wrath casts that could be done instead of applying bleeds that much more powerful since there is decent ramp-up time to getting both Rake and Rip up. At this point I think one would just have to be lucky to make the bleeds more effective, suppose we can wait to see how your sims work out.
    Oh sure, there's definitely plenty of timing involved. You can easily get 5cp and lots of energy during a Renataki and right before the max stack fire everything.

    Heck, even if it happens in the middle of a wrath spam it'd be more advantageous to swap and drop the bleeds onto the target before going back to Wrath spam.

    However, it requires simming to get an actual idea of how effective this stuff is. And SmC has too many bugs to do this atm. Waiting until this is fixed.

  15. #15
    So far im fine with wrath spams. might be a bit more rng, but actually our warrior died last time on durumu, cause he couldnt believe me beeing nr1 with bl after 30 seconds he looked recount which spell i was using and got kicked off. he was really pissed^^. Got really lucky with procs. Did 350k maxburst that try. and i only have a 502 mh with the archeology OH. Wanted to try the cat/wrath HotW, but after 2-3 tries I had to maintank cause the Warrior was not as good. The primordious trinket was really nice(got RoR today had to use the hastestack one cause i could get rid of my hit). tested it with BL on dummy it stacks really fast even on casts.

    Its really hard to decide. You could win or lose alot of dps, depends on trinket procs. and alot of other thinks, without BL id say kitty with berserk and wrath would be better. but BL with wrath spam should be more ahead.

    !!! This is just from some testing on dummys!!! If you get better sim numbers that would be great. But i would say if you can use berserk in bear with 2-3 targets, the kitty question is of the table. The rest im not so sure cause like you said even 5-6 test on dummies now, they differ alot.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    Its really hard to decide. You could win or lose alot of dps, depends on trinket procs. and alot of other thinks, without BL id say kitty with berserk and wrath would be better. but BL with wrath spam should be more ahead.
    High-AP bites hit pretty darn hard, my record so far without special damage buffs on the boss was ~770k. This makes HotW-kitty particularly good at turning extra energy into damage. BL shouldn't make wrath-spam pull ahead.

    Kitty scales very, very well with agility procs as well, considering it gets damage+crit, where wrath only gets damage. It's actually pretty easy to completely crit-cap during HotW as a cat. This also makes dummy tests a bit unreliable, in a raid you might have skull banner, which helps kitty out much more than wrath.

    And finally, if you feel like being helpful and healing, cat double-dips on that by getting bonus agility=bonus SP and the healing bonus, making absurdly strong rejuvs. Makes it a little easier to finish up HotW instead of having to taunt off the other tank a bit early.

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