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  1. #21
    DHs have to do with Rogue as much as they have to do with any melee class. IMO, their weapon and look could be expanded upon. The most important thing is their "inner demon" theme. DHs use magic too heavily for Rogue could ever hope for. If DH will be 4th spec for any class it should be warlock with no question. They use the same source of power.

  2. #22
    Huh, interesting.

    If we did get four specs, and hero classes were in the wings, I would so super hard want that DH spec to finally come home to rogues.


    Right now, specs break down a bit differently by class.

    Mages break down, not along their "spell schools", but along which ELEMENT of magic they can deal the most damage with. We don't have evokers, illusionists, and transmuters, we have fire, frost, and arcane. It's pretty obvious that all of them are mages.
    Warlocks break down along which kind of warlock magic they are best at- it's the same thing.

    Priests, however, break down upon philosophical lines. It makes as much sense for a priest to transition from holy to shadow as it does for a rogue to go from combat to demon hunter. Warriors are even worse- an arms warrior is a soldier or mercenary, a weapon master. A fury warrior has stuff he swings around, but HE is the weapon- he's a raging berserker. These are more than just minor twists.

    So what a respec means per class is already wildly variable, and is already just as excessive as DH -> Combat.

    The other reason this would be a solid idea is that, simply put, the game has a lot more room for specs than classes. If you introduce a Demon Hunter class (which is the most requested class), you'll have another melee guy in a game where you never want to really stack melee much, and where it's very common. If you introduce a Tinker, you probably get back your ranged guy, right? But how many people want to roll tinker, versus want to roll Demon Hunter. We just added a monk, and that's another melee. In a 10 man run, you have room for 5-7 dps, depending on the fight. Of those, it's very rare to be able to exceed 3 melee, and you are often best off with one or two. Yet out of the 34 specs, 12 are ranged and 11 melee. Ok, sounds fine... until you check again and realize that of the 11 classes, 7 of them can melee, 4 of them can melee as their only dps option, and 1 of them can only melee dps period. Melee is pretty contested, and adding more and more melee classes only hurts that a lot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-07 at 07:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    DHs have to do with Rogue as much as they have to do with any melee class.
    Warriors wear light armor, always dual wield, and have evasion? Or is that Paladins or Death Knights?
    Is it the feral cats? They have much in common?
    Maybe it's the shaman. Those guys dual wield, and totally aren't modelled after another hero class in WCIII.


    Bottom line: Rogues are the closest you get to Demon Hunters. The furthest is paladins, shamans, and death knights, all of whom are already modelled after WCIII hero classes. Druids are based on units, but if you turn into a cat to do your job, you definitely aren't dual wielding paws. Of the warrior and rogue, the rogue fits much closer.

    Warlocks are casters. I still don't know why they gave them some DH spells, I think it's because there's so much demand for the DH and the lock at least casts from the same source. But DHs have as much similarity to a warlock as a paladin does to a priest.

  3. #23
    This has been a very informative thread. I've warmed considerably to the idea of Rogue Demon Hunters over the course of reading it. I guess the biggest selling point to me is the idea of thematic uniformity the class already suffers from and the freshness such a spec would bring to the table, thereby making the class more popular. Even if not Demon Hunter, I'm pretty intrigued by the idea of a magic-infused trickster or something along those lines. I guess I was more or less reflexively anti-magic with respect to Rogues going in, but now I can see how it could work, and moreover why it might be a good idea.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Warlocks are casters. I still don't know why they gave them some DH spells, I think it's because there's so much demand for the DH and the lock at least casts from the same source. But DHs have as much similarity to a warlock as a paladin does to a priest.
    In other words, quite a fair bit.

    The problem with your "analysis", is that being a caster doesn't preclude melee. Warlocks had a reputation for tanking for example. Demonology was set up with melee. Battlemages and Warmages exists in universe. Illidan was a caster before he was a meleer.

    The idea that it is OK for an arcane caster to develop melee spells but not a demon influenced one isn't one that really holds water. If a mage can melee, a warlock can melee.

    So, if all it takes to turn a warlock into a Demon hunter is the passive skill "dual wield", I think that is doable.

    A DH would work BEST as a dedicated class. No question. But it would work well as a spec for an existing class. And in that case, you could argue it would fit the Hunter, Rogue or Warlock depending on which aspect you wanted to emphasise. Between the three? Warlocks have many of the known spells and abilities, is known to be influenced by demons and can can make use of magic. Putting the DH in as a stance would be doable, but less flexible.

    EJL

  5. #25
    Paladins aren't Priests, and Warlocks aren't Demon Hunters. Even when you apply mechanics to make it playable, it's not what the class is.

    You could mechanically add a ranged DPS spec to Paladins or a Tanking spec to Priests, but Tanking Priests are not Paladins and caster Paladins are not Priests. If you add a Melee/Tanking spec to a Warlock, then it is a Warlock with a Melee/Tanking spec. It is not a Demon Hunter, considering there are important differences that must be considered that are beyond simple game mechanics. The core aspect of a Warlock is a caster who summons and controls demons, not hunt them down.

  6. #26
    If we're going to have a heavily shadow-magic based rogue spec, I'd rather see it modeled on Wardens rather than Demon Hunters. Wardens have that cool ultimate spell that summons a shadowy giant who resurrects the fallen as invincible spirits. Plus rogues have a couple of their abilities already.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    If we're going to have a heavily shadow-magic based rogue spec, I'd rather see it modeled on Wardens rather than Demon Hunters. Wardens have that cool ultimate spell that summons a shadowy giant who resurrects the fallen as invincible spirits. Plus rogues have a couple of their abilities already.
    I've really never understood what makes Warden different from rogue, aside for how they're lawmen instead of criminals.
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  8. #28
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    I would love to see Spirit of Vengeance in WoW. 4th spec or not, I'm pretty certain that ability will end up with Rogues at some point.

  9. #29
    They are to rogues what paladins are to warriors. They are a melee class with magical attacks powering them, in this case, fel/chaos instead of the light.

    They are to warlocks what paladins are to priests.

    They are a melee class, which if you watch Illidan in action in the Well of Eternity 5 man, is even more rogue like.

    It was not until Warlocks got metamorph that anyone even dared tried to claim a warlock had anything to do with demon hunters, which is why ROgues got glaives and the Cursed Vision in TBC.

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  10. #30
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I would love to see Spirit of Vengeance in WoW. 4th spec or not, I'm pretty certain that ability will end up with Rogues at some point.
    @Teriz

    Remember when I said you talked as if you know everything?

    "people are not gonna like DH"
    "People will love the tinker"
    "Blizz is transforming warlocks in DHs"
    "oh I predicted a monk" when in fact u predicted a runemaster -_-

    you did it again, just sayin...

  11. #31
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    @Teriz

    Remember when I said you talked as if you know everything?

    "people are not gonna like DH"
    "People will love the tinker"
    "Blizz is transforming warlocks in DHs"
    "oh I predicted a monk" when in fact u predicted a runemaster -_-

    you did it again, just sayin...
    Just pointing out that of all existing classes, it fits best with Rogues.

    For that matter, so does Shadow Strike.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    I've really never understood what makes Warden different from rogue, aside for how they're lawmen instead of criminals.
    Yeah, exactly. Wardens would be like spell-rogues - less emphasis on mundane physical combat and more on bringing out a rogue's more magical abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    For that matter, so does Shadow Strike.
    Back when you could poison throwing weapons, rogues practically had it already.

  13. #33
    Trying to weld demon hunters into ANY existing class would be a mistake. All or nothing IMO. Don't shoehorn it into rogue or warlock. The only thing rogues have in common with them is dual wielding, and rogues have evasion which was a demon hunter ability in wc 3.

  14. #34
    Pandaren Monk Solzan Nemesis's Avatar
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    Evasion is a Demon Hunter ability in WC3. That's probably why, but most I read agree it should be a Warlock spec (On MMO-Champions forums). Not sure what you are reading this from OP.
    Last edited by Solzan Nemesis; 2013-05-08 at 02:18 AM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    Yeah, exactly. Wardens would be like spell-rogues - less emphasis on mundane physical combat and more on bringing out a rogue's more magical abilities.
    pkay this is getting silly now. How would a Warden spec fit a rogue other than the obvious monster word "balance" that is being thrown around by fanatics?
    Wardens, gonna use another spammed word, are na archetype that actually wears heavy armour, use magic and pursuit justice as a living. Do u perceive rogues as such or anything like that?

    stop shoehorning classes into others, its a childdish demand...

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    pkay this is getting silly now. How would a Warden spec fit a rogue other than the obvious monster word "balance" that is being thrown around by fanatics?
    Wardens, gonna use another spammed word, are na archetype that actually wears heavy armour, use magic and pursuit justice as a living. Do u perceive rogues as such or anything like that?

    stop shoehorning classes into others, its a childdish demand...
    They don't have to literally be wardens in the vein of the night elf Watchers that exist already, just adopt warden-esque abilities. Rogues are mercenary types, they can be hired to serve justice as easily as anything else. Them using magic is kind've the point - rogues have a handful of highly magical abilities already (cloak of shadows, shadowstep, etc.), the idea is that a 4th spec would push those magical powers to the forefront and make them a magic-using melee class. I also had an idea of how it could be a tank spec.

  17. #37
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Wardens can also be considered a type of bounty hunter, which fits the Rogue's archetype.

    Let's also not forget that incorporating the Warden into the Rogue class would go a long way towards revitalizing the class. Rogues are a dying class.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Huh, interesting.

    If we did get four specs, and hero classes were in the wings, I would so super hard want that DH spec to finally come home to rogues.


    Right now, specs break down a bit differently by class.

    Mages break down, not along their "spell schools", but along which ELEMENT of magic they can deal the most damage with. We don't have evokers, illusionists, and transmuters, we have fire, frost, and arcane. It's pretty obvious that all of them are mages.
    Warlocks break down along which kind of warlock magic they are best at- it's the same thing.

    Priests, however, break down upon philosophical lines. It makes as much sense for a priest to transition from holy to shadow as it does for a rogue to go from combat to demon hunter. Warriors are even worse- an arms warrior is a soldier or mercenary, a weapon master. A fury warrior has stuff he swings around, but HE is the weapon- he's a raging berserker. These are more than just minor twists.

    So what a respec means per class is already wildly variable, and is already just as excessive as DH -> Combat.

    The other reason this would be a solid idea is that, simply put, the game has a lot more room for specs than classes. If you introduce a Demon Hunter class (which is the most requested class), you'll have another melee guy in a game where you never want to really stack melee much, and where it's very common. If you introduce a Tinker, you probably get back your ranged guy, right? But how many people want to roll tinker, versus want to roll Demon Hunter. We just added a monk, and that's another melee. In a 10 man run, you have room for 5-7 dps, depending on the fight. Of those, it's very rare to be able to exceed 3 melee, and you are often best off with one or two. Yet out of the 34 specs, 12 are ranged and 11 melee. Ok, sounds fine... until you check again and realize that of the 11 classes, 7 of them can melee, 4 of them can melee as their only dps option, and 1 of them can only melee dps period. Melee is pretty contested, and adding more and more melee classes only hurts that a lot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-07 at 07:20 PM ----------



    Warriors wear light armor, always dual wield, and have evasion? Or is that Paladins or Death Knights?
    Is it the feral cats? They have much in common?
    Maybe it's the shaman. Those guys dual wield, and totally aren't modelled after another hero class in WCIII.


    Bottom line: Rogues are the closest you get to Demon Hunters. The furthest is paladins, shamans, and death knights, all of whom are already modelled after WCIII hero classes. Druids are based on units, but if you turn into a cat to do your job, you definitely aren't dual wielding paws. Of the warrior and rogue, the rogue fits much closer.

    Warlocks are casters. I still don't know why they gave them some DH spells, I think it's because there's so much demand for the DH and the lock at least casts from the same source. But DHs have as much similarity to a warlock as a paladin does to a priest.
    Because DH is spellcaster+melee. They are not just melee who imbue their weapon with magic and done. They cast wide range of spells... There's also one DH in Blasted Land who wear mail-like shoulder pad. DHs do melee with warglaive and use a lot of arcane magic. Rogue is closer to something like Warden. It's actually easier for warlock to wield weapons than Rogue to master arcane magic. Illidan was a mage and he could wield weapons just fine. Rogue,Warrior and Hunter are considered to be really physical based classes. DH could be spec for Warlock in the same style as Enhancement Shaman.
    Last edited by Wildmoon; 2013-05-08 at 03:24 AM.

  19. #39
    Immortal Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Other than that they have a kind of rogueish feel to them, I have no idea.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Paladins aren't Priests
    Paladins are priests and clerics who donned plate instead of mail.

    and Warlocks aren't Demon Hunters.
    And Demon Hunters aren't in the game yet so this is a highly speculative statement. If a Mage can pick up a sword and devote his tiem to develop the skills necessary to become a BattleMage in gameworld, the same can be said for a Warlock type caster who develops towards the Demon Hunter. Some one who manipulates demonic energies in pursuit of a melee style approach. Blizzard doesn't need to develop the DH this way - but the truth is that it has given the Warlock a large number of DH style features and has linked the two classes to a great degree and there isn't anything in lore or ingame that would contradict that approach.

    Even when you apply mechanics to make it playable, it's not what the class is.
    The class is a cloth wearer who gets its abilities and powers from the manipulation of demonic energies. A Demonologists does it through the control of actual demons, a destruction and afflock takes a more caster centric approach. And if a Demon Hunter is seen as soemone who takes on a more melee centred style...what is there that would contradict that - except you own preconceived notions?

    If you add a Melee/Tanking spec to a Warlock, then it is a Warlock with a Melee/Tanking spec.
    And if this combination is what Blizzard decides a Demon Hunter is? There is nothing in game to say otherwise. Yes...the class would get deeper development as a standalone. That doesn't make the Warlock approach impossible.

    It is not a Demon Hunter, considering there are important differences that must be considered that are beyond simple game mechanics. The core aspect of a Warlock is a caster who summons and controls demons, not hunt them down.
    I seem to recall a certain demon hunter who had several Fel Hound pets. The problem here is you are defining a Warlock as centred around his pets. Which would be more of a Demonologist role as pets are more important for that spec. If, OTOH, you view a Warlock as a class who gains power through the control and manipulation of demonic energies - which is a bit more broad - then DHs do fit.

    EJL

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