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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Klavier Gavin View Post
    Can't say it would be that hard for Blizzard to change the lore around a little!
    Agreed.

    Blizzard will retcon what they like, and I'll be happy to see them do it for the sake of an awesome and dark class with potential!

  2. #42
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Yak View Post
    They don't have to literally be wardens in the vein of the night elf Watchers that exist already, just adopt warden-esque abilities. Rogues are mercenary types, they can be hired to serve justice as easily as anything else. Them using magic is kind've the point - rogues have a handful of highly magical abilities already (cloak of shadows, shadowstep, etc.), the idea is that a 4th spec would push those magical powers to the forefront and make them a magic-using melee class. I also had an idea of how it could be a tank spec.
    no, still don't buy it.

  3. #43
    Oh my girlfriend reminded me of another big reason DHs are associated with Rogues; the crouched stealth stance DHs take is something only Rogues do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    DHs have to do with Rogue as much as they have to do with any melee class. IMO, their weapon and look could be expanded upon. The most important thing is their "inner demon" theme. DHs use magic too heavily for Rogue could ever hope for. If DH will be 4th spec for any class it should be warlock with no question. They use the same source of power.
    Or Rogues who's specs are currently too samey as it is, could use a spec which uses magic a bit more ostensibly. It's not hard or radical, arcane tricksters and spellthieves are pretty established and awesome class types.

    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    This has been a very informative thread. I've warmed considerably to the idea of Rogue Demon Hunters over the course of reading it. I guess the biggest selling point to me is the idea of thematic uniformity the class already suffers from and the freshness such a spec would bring to the table, thereby making the class more popular. Even if not Demon Hunter, I'm pretty intrigued by the idea of a magic-infused trickster or something along those lines. I guess I was more or less reflexively anti-magic with respect to Rogues going in, but now I can see how it could work, and moreover why it might be a good idea.
    Kudos for having an open mind. With respect to pen and paper games, I would estimate that the most popular multiclass and prestige class choices for Rogues are arcane. The two mesh quite well. If we look at Elderscrolls, most people who play a mage end up using a lot of stealth. Magic and stealth fit quite well together.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaoskadosk View Post
    I'm not a huge lore buff, so I have to ask, what has Blizzard actually changed in their lore? As in completely rehaul something already canon, not adding things that actually make sense canonically whether you agree with it or not.

    Warcraft is an evolving world, so obviously they have every right to expand that world, but have they actually completely changed something lorewise? I'm really curious.

    Don't take it the wrong way, I'm actually curious about it and would like to know. There seems to be a lot of people that can't distinguish between changing canon lore and adding new elements.
    I don't really think they changed any pre existing canon... They didn't really changed the draenei... they explained it pretty well how they came to be and all... and the different factions of draenei(the ones on azeroth, the eredar which were the original draenei but got corrupted so the non corrupted one changed their name to distinguish themselves from the corrupted ones, and the broken which are also corrupted ones but different than eredar...)

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Paladins are priests and clerics who donned plate instead of mail.

    And Demon Hunters aren't in the game yet so this is a highly speculative statement. If a Mage can pick up a sword and devote his tiem to develop the skills necessary to become a BattleMage in gameworld, the same can be said for a Warlock type caster who develops towards the Demon Hunter. Some one who manipulates demonic energies in pursuit of a melee style approach. Blizzard doesn't need to develop the DH this way - but the truth is that it has given the Warlock a large number of DH style features and has linked the two classes to a great degree and there isn't anything in lore or ingame that would contradict that approach.
    Paladin is not a priest spec. They are still very clearly different classes.

  6. #46
    Brewmaster Skayth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Demon Hunter being a 4th spec of Rogue? That's new. Most people say it should be a 4th spec of Warlock. Which if you know anything about the lore, is an impossibility. Warlocks are in it for power, DHs are in it for revenge.
    Thats actually a misinterpreted quote. It is true that About half the warlocks are in it for power, the other half are in it for revenge. Go reread council of the six daggers. Quite a few of them are there simply for power, and others simply know the horrors they face and wish to gain power to fight them.

    Dont get me wrong, I dont think warlocks should be given a 4th spec, saying that they are demon hunters, but i am one to say, if any class gets the fourth spec saying demon hunter, it would be warlocks. The Lore somewhat goes, but NOT really. Its about being vengeful and either using demonic power against demonic power, or simply a blood lust to kill demons, essentially makes you a demon hunter, this is speaking logically of course, not role playing. A demon hunter CLASS is different then a person simply hunting demons. Demon hunters kill demons, from what i gathered from playing illidan in wc3, and I mean KILL demons, rather than simply sending them back to the twisting nether (other demon hunters), ie. tichondrias. Normal people, from what I have gathered, are unable to actually kill a demon, as they are sent back to the twisting nether, but true demon hunters on the other hand, I believe they are able too, as Tichondrias has not been mentioned alive nor has shown his ugly head, and was quite surprised while illidan was killing him in wc3.

    But, the entirety of rogues getting the 4th spec demon hunters is completely absurd. There is not even a scrap of lore pointing to it, besides "ohhhh they duel wield, and illidan in well of eternity uses some shadow spells." His stealth is a shadow spell. Rogues are not nor have been demon hunters. Hell you can even go as far as saying, they will never be demon hunters, as they would probably get the warden spec from wc3, as it more resembles them, if they were getting a 4th spec.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Demon Hunter being a 4th spec of Rogue? That's new. Most people say it should be a 4th spec of Warlock. Which if you know anything about the lore, is an impossibility. Warlocks are in it for power, DHs are in it for revenge.
    Where's the contradiction? There's nothing saying the Warlock cannot want the power for the purpose of revenge. Fighting fire with fire is pretty much the point of DHs.

    As for rogues and DH, both are lightly armored, agile, dual wielding melee fighters. Rogues and Warlocks are the closest things to them we currently have, though neither quite fits. DHs are somewhere in between those two.

  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfen View Post
    Thats actually a misinterpreted quote. It is true that About half the warlocks are in it for power, the other half are in it for revenge. Go reread council of the six daggers. Quite a few of them are there simply for power, and others simply know the horrors they face and wish to gain power to fight them.

    Dont get me wrong, I dont think warlocks should be given a 4th spec, saying that they are demon hunters, but i am one to say, if any class gets the fourth spec saying demon hunter, it would be warlocks. The Lore somewhat goes, but NOT really. Its about being vengeful and either using demonic power against demonic power, or simply a blood lust to kill demons, essentially makes you a demon hunter, this is speaking logically of course, not role playing. A demon hunter CLASS is different then a person simply hunting demons. Demon hunters kill demons, from what i gathered from playing illidan in wc3, and I mean KILL demons, rather than simply sending them back to the twisting nether (other demon hunters), ie. tichondrias. Normal people, from what I have gathered, are unable to actually kill a demon, as they are sent back to the twisting nether, but true demon hunters on the other hand, I believe they are able too, as Tichondrias has not been mentioned alive nor has shown his ugly head, and was quite surprised while illidan was killing him in wc3.

    But, the entirety of rogues getting the 4th spec demon hunters is completely absurd. There is not even a scrap of lore pointing to it, besides "ohhhh they duel wield, and illidan in well of eternity uses some shadow spells." His stealth is a shadow spell. Rogues are not nor have been demon hunters. Hell you can even go as far as saying, they will never be demon hunters, as they would probably get the warden spec from wc3, as it more resembles them, if they were getting a 4th spec.
    I fully agree with your post. You made very good points and i hope people will understand that in the grand picture, wardens, rogues, demon hunters and warlocks are very very different things.

    If I had to choose one of the two absurd warlock or rogue options to take in a demon hunter spec I'd say the warlock is the least absurd but still absurd enough for me to not play it...

  9. #49
    The reason it would fall to rogues way before locks is this:


    If you rolled a class wanting to be a Demon Hunter, you rolled rogue..



    Rogues have shadow magic. Granted, it's like ninja shadow magic, but still.



    Obviously, DHs should be their own class. But there's already a lot of evidence that we have classes rolled together. The ninja is already a pirate / thief / ninja. The warrior is a knight / barbarian / weapons master. The paladin is a cleric / paladin / some-kind-of-turtle-thing. The shaman is a warrior-shaman, a medicine man, and a tempest-mage. You can see VERY different classes getting rolled in here, and that's by design. If they are going to add demon hunter, a dual wield melee guy, to any class, it would definitely be rogue.

    They would be much more likely to make it its own thing, however. Likely a tank / mdps / mdps like warriors and DKs, or even a tank / mdps / rdps, which would be pretty fresh. As a new class they would likely assign it mail for gearing purposes, but maybe go some route to keep the correct look of the DK.

    Lock really wouldn't make any sense. Warlocks can't even parry!

  10. #50
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post

    Lock really wouldn't make any sense. Warlocks can't even parry!
    and rogues can't use fire magic so they both would suck at being a demon hunter

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    I've really never understood what makes Warden different from rogue, aside for how they're lawmen instead of criminals.
    They wear plate. No, seriously.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    They wear plate. No, seriously.
    They wear plate, and they dual wield like, chakram or something? I don't know what those things are. In any event, Wardens are so much less popular than Demon Hunters that it's hard to figure out what they are. They definitely have 1.5 rogue moves, which isn't bad for arguing that they would be rogues. Fan of Knives is actually very close to the original version rogues got (cooldown based move that hit for a whole lot), though it's a far cry from what it is today. The initial damage + poison attack that wardens get isn't like anything in the game at all, but it is a ranged attack that deals poison damage, so that kind of counts?

    But stuff like blink and spirit of vengeance... eh.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    They wear plate, and they dual wield like, chakram or something?
    They're chakrams, though they don't dual wield them.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Paladins are priests and clerics who donned plate instead of mail.
    Paladins are Paladins in WoW. Priests are Priests. If Paladins are simply 'Priests and clerics who donned plate' then they would have been a Priest spec. They aren't portrayed that way in the game in any fashion.

    Demon Hunters are not in game, and it's somewhat speculative, but based on established lore, they are different enough from Warlocks to warrant being their own class. The parallel to the Paladin is there.

    A Melee warlock is still a Warlock, any way you see it. A Brewmaster is still a Monk. An Arms Warrior is still a Warrior. Demon Hunters would have to become Warlocks for this change to happen.

    To make Demon Hunters a part of the Warlock class would be like taking the current Paladin and folding it into the Priest as a spec. It would be breaking Warlock identity to fit in a playable melee spec (that fits to what a Demon Hunter is), and it would be changing Demon Hunter lore to become a Warlock specialization.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanochan View Post
    Agreed.

    Blizzard will retcon what they like, and I'll be happy to see them do it for the sake of an awesome and dark class with potential!
    My biggest concern with DH is that they'll become like the Death Knight. So focused on killing 1 person (Kil'jaedan most likely) that they have 0 story relevance after that expansion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 01:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Paladins are Paladins in WoW. Priests are Priests. If Paladins are simply 'Priests and clerics who donned plate' then they would have been a Priest spec. They aren't portrayed that way in the game in any fashion.

    Demon Hunters are not in game, and it's somewhat speculative, but based on established lore, they are different enough from Warlocks to warrant being their own class. The parallel to the Paladin is there.

    A Melee warlock is still a Warlock, any way you see it. A Brewmaster is still a Monk. An Arms Warrior is still a Warrior. Demon Hunters would have to become Warlocks for this change to happen.

    To make Demon Hunters a part of the Warlock class would be like taking the current Paladin and folding it into the Priest as a spec. It would be breaking Warlock identity to fit in a playable melee spec (that fits to what a Demon Hunter is), and it would be changing Demon Hunter lore to become a Warlock specialization.
    Easy way to say it is just to look at their motives. Demon Hunters are more than just a petless melee warlock if you look into their lore beyond just "uses demonic energy."
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    They're chakrams, though they don't dual wield them.
    Actually, they are Umbra Crescents,and i quote wowpedia: This is a circular blade favored by night elf Watchers. This type of weapon was most famously wielded by Maiev Shadowsong, but can be seen even today on night elves such as the Barrow Deeps Watchers on Mount Hyjal. It is likely the weapon you have recovered was magical before it was broken into so many fragments.

    Night elf archaeology

    Anyway, they are seen wielding more than those, such as glaives (the ones in the firelands).

    And you really think that is plate? I can make my warlock look like she is wearing plate, I make my rogue look like she is wearing plate. The look does not mean it is plate.

    Dokhidamo, the concern of a DH being only relevant for one expansion, is quite dumb to believe. WE WILL NEVER defeat the legion in wow. They are the biggest threat, and they will always come back. Hence burning crusade and the next legion themed expansion. Unlike death knights, sadly, there is always a threat of the legion.

    DHs are not Locks.
    They do have some similar lore, but it not similar to the point of saying they are the same. If they were, then any class would be demon hunter, as demon hunters are basically people who hunt demons out of revenge. You can even call a paladin a demon hunter based on that logic.

    What makes a demon hunter, a Demon Hunter CLASS is the training they go through, the rituals, the fighting style, the class of magic they use, the reasons why they decide to become a demon hunter, and the only way to truly become a demon hunter is through the training of another.

  17. #57
    Rogues already have a demon hunter ability. Illidan uses Shadow Walk to cloak the group in the WoE instance. While rogues have a spell called Shadow Walk it doesn't do the same effect- but Shroud of Concealment does(I think they mixed up the names but w/e)

    Not to say Rogues are Demon hunters, but have some of their aesthetics while the rest goes to warlock.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    Other than the fact that they dual wield glaives - which to my mind, being swords, has as much to do with Rogues as it would with Warriors, or any sword using class, as 2 out of 3 Rogue specs do not use swords.

    It's bothering me lately because 4th spec has been a popular topic of discussion and Demon Hunter keeps coming up as a 4th spec for Rogues, which I not only don't want, I just don't see how it makes sense. Rogues are, you know, thieves and assassins and stuff, not magic adepts that can metamorphose into their inner demons - right?
    The only reason Demon Hunter has been mentioned as a fourth spec for rogues is because it's being mentioned by the Rogues who don't want to have to reroll in order to become one (if you go by the "new class" assumption for xpac). Nothing to see here. There's no way they would make something so popular only one spec of one class - you'd have 1) a lot of pissed off players of other classes, and 2) a metric ton of new rogues.
    Last edited by Pizza the Hutt; 2013-05-08 at 07:32 PM.

  19. #59
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizza the Hutt View Post
    The only reason Demon Hunter has been mentioned as a fourth spec for rogues is because it's being mentioned by the Rogues who don't want to have to reroll in order to become one. Nothing to see here.
    ámen for the truth brother

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfen View Post
    And you really think that is plate?
    Yes. It's almost assuredly plate. You could make an argument for mail perhaps, but not leather or cloth.

    I make my rogue look like she is wearing plate.
    Since you actually do this, pics or it didn't happen. I'm not aware of a plate-a-like set for rogues.

    The look does not mean it is plate.
    With wow transmog, maybe not. But in WCIII, yes it does.


    What makes a demon hunter, a Demon Hunter CLASS is the training they go through, the rituals, the fighting style, the class of magic they use, the reasons why they decide to become a demon hunter, and the only way to truly become a demon hunter is through the training of another.
    I don't think anyone argues that they would make an excellent hero class.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 07:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DonQShot View Post
    ámen for the truth brother
    Plenty of rogues are already demon hunters. They just rolled the closest fit class. Those guys don't really want to see some new class appear that they have to reroll to.

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