View Poll Results: Make sense?

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  1. #161
    Many of your reasons may be invalid since Blizz might mix up the whole system with current classes. E.g. an additional spec for every class (except druids). Or possibly let healers use non-int gear. The current problem with a mail user is that would put LW up to 6 classes that armor is made for, while Tailoring and BS have 3 each (although LW can only make gear and leg enchants vs bags/leg enchants for tailoring and belt buckle/weapon for BS).

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by subanark View Post
    Many of your reasons may be invalid since Blizz might mix up the whole system with current classes. E.g. an additional spec for every class (except druids). Or possibly let healers use non-int gear. The current problem with a mail user is that would put LW up to 6 classes that armor is made for, while Tailoring and BS have 3 each (although LW can only make gear and leg enchants vs bags/leg enchants for tailoring and belt buckle/weapon for BS).
    The problem with an extra spec for every non Druid class is that it's exponentially more work in balancing when Blizzard hasn't proven they can even balance out the existing specs for each class (see Pures and their often case of one good spec and two trash ones.)

    A new class is easier to balance than adding more specs since its 3 isolated specs and in the case of hybrids, only have to balanced with similar roles and not balanced around each other, though I'm still predicting the next class be a pure as Monks and Death Knights have done nothing to increase the amount of tanks or healers (Ghostcrawler's own words.) Death Knights were only massively popular because of the level jumpstart and being massively overpowered. Monks are well designed but are simply not being used as they're a melee/tank/healer hybrid that's actually fairly balanced in DPS (after 5.3 especially) and people still don't care to tank or heal. A new pure would have a much larger appeal. Why I'm sticking with the Dark Ranger as the next one.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-05-10 at 06:56 PM.

  3. #163
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtree View Post
    No more so than the difference between a warrior's purely physical DPS and a magic-heavy enhancement shaman. The details are different, but the overall behavior in a fight is the same.
    Caster classes tend to have cast times. Hence why they're called casters. Physical ranged almost entirely have instant attacks that can hit from range. Hitting a target with magic versus hitting a target with arrows/bullets isn't the same thing.

    Its also important to note that a Hunter cannot fight from range without a ranged weapon. Meanwhile a Mage, Warlock, Priest, Shaman, etc. can still cast spells while being unequipped.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Caster classes tend to have cast times. Hence why they're called casters. Physical ranged almost entirely have instant attacks that can hit from range. Hitting a target with magic versus hitting a target with arrows/bullets isn't the same thing.

    Its also important to note that a Hunter cannot fight from range without a ranged weapon. Meanwhile a Mage, Warlock, Priest, Shaman, etc. can still cast spells while being unequipped.
    Also Hunters can't be interrupted nor can their attacks be spell reflected.

  5. #165
    I think the sample size is too small to predict what blizz will do for the next class, or even when they'll add one.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Caster classes tend to have cast times. Hence why they're called casters. Physical ranged almost entirely have instant attacks that can hit from range. Hitting a target with magic versus hitting a target with arrows/bullets isn't the same thing.

    Its also important to note that a Hunter cannot fight from range without a ranged weapon. Meanwhile a Mage, Warlock, Priest, Shaman, etc. can still cast spells while being unequipped.
    Rotation, equipment, ability usage...all class mechanics. On a macro level, hunters, mages, locks, spreists, boomkins, and ele shaman fight from the same place, and have to be aware of the same threats. That makes them all ranged combatants.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    First I will put this chart I made last year, for a different thread also started by Teriz, in which he came to the same conclusion I had and completely rejected the idea.

    You will see the gaps in this chart.

    Melee DPS = 10
    Pet DPS = 8
    Healer = 6
    Caster DPS = 5
    Ranged/Pet DPS = 2
    Tank/ = 5 with a caster off tank 1/2 spec.
    While I agree that your conclusion is a real possibility, I don't think this chart (or your data) are especially illustrative of it's certitude. A "Burning Legion" expansion and a "Demon Hunter" hero class are the path of least resistance -- which Blizzard often takes. But there's some serious issues on live that change my estimation of this from "a dead certain bet" to "improbable."

    First, the game has a shortage of both tanks and healers: tanks up to LFR, healers at all levels. The Monk was a failed attempt at solution because all three specs have higher skill caps than other classes for identical roles -- but perform no better. That's a deeply flawed design that takes about three neurons to realize is fundamentally stupid.

    So, I expect three things, given your information and what we know of the current game.

    First, it'll be a mail wearer with tank and a healing spec.

    Second, because the Blizzard class design team historically employs myopic fuck-ups who think they're artistes, it'll be arbitrarily turgid with second-rate functionality. Expect complicated mechanics, probably multiple buttons you spam that eat resources like Pac-Man eating power pellets, but you'll die without keeping both buffs up, and they think those 20 buttons you don't get to press make for "interesting choices". On the other hand, it'll probably outperform everyone else at some oddball niche role.

    Third, if we accept the "Spirit Mail" hypothesis -- which I think its true -- its DPS specialization will necessarily be a mana user with the Spirit -> Hit conversion. In all likelihood, this caster variant's performance will shit the big one, so nobody will bother playing it, kind of like Windwalkers and the "interesting" mechanic of "back-weighted DPS system that's laughably incompatible with all known trinkets and raid cooldowns". It's further probable that some kid with a BA in Computer Science decides they're hot shit and writes a sophomoric "sim" that claims, erroneously, to top meters in unattainable gear, so they'll leave it that way and insist it's OK until very late in the expansion when people post why the rare spawns named "Bürnlegiönlol" never drop blue items.

    Of course, without fail, some whiny baby who probably plays a Frost Mage or Arms Warrior will decide giving a mail-wearing class stealth is "OP", so it won't have that.

    What we're left with is so different from a classical Demon Hunter that it really can't be called one.
    Last edited by Vulcanasm; 2013-05-11 at 01:13 AM.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  8. #168
    Wouldn't be so sure Vulcanasm.

    While it's pretty much a certainty that what we get next will be Mail and use ranged weapons, I have my doubts on whether it will be another tank or healer hybrid. Ghostcrawler stated personally that Death Knights and Monks did absolutely nothing towards making tanking or healing more attractive. All of that work goes into the class and their specs to make them more appealing and attract players to the class and the individual roles, and they haven't been able to do that. Fact of the matter is that tanking and healing aren't very attractive. Adding another tank/healer accomplishes very little since very few will actually be using it.

    It's one of the reasons why if I had to bet money on the next class, it would be a pure DPS Dark Ranger class. Fixes the itemization issues they talk about a lot on the twitter feed and would have larger appeal than another tank/healer hybrid class. Death Knights had their massive population because of their higher starting level and the fact they were gamebreakingly overpowered. Monks (especially after the DPS buffs in the 5.3 patch) will be the posterchildren for balanced but yet there's no real interest in playing them. They have their fans, but players have simply avoided them. Many have no interest in tanking or healing so that chops 2/3 specs of a Monk off the "attractive" list. This leaves you with Windwalker to try to be enough to draw more attention to the class. Death Knights at least have two damage specs still, like Warriors.

    Hybrids are necessary additions, but I have my doubts Blizzard will release another hybrid next after the issues with Monks. Expecting more along the lines of a Warlock style Pure DPS given the success of the Warlock revamp and proving that Pures can in fact have flavorful, unique, AND be balanced.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-05-11 at 12:51 AM.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    Wouldn't be so sure Vulcanasm.

    While it's pretty much a certainty that what we get next will be Mail and use ranged weapons, I have my doubts on whether it will be another tank or healer hybrid. Ghostcrawler stated personally that Death Knights and Monks did absolutely nothing towards making tanking or healing more attractive. All of that work goes into the class and their specs to make them more appealing and attract players to the class and the individual roles, and they haven't been able to do that. Fact of the matter is that tanking and healing aren't very attractive. Adding another tank/healer accomplishes very little since very few will actually be using it.

    It's one of the reasons why if I had to bet money on the next class, it would be a pure DPS Dark Ranger class. Fixes the itemization issues they talk about a lot on the twitter feed and would have larger appeal than another tank/healer hybrid class. Death Knights had their massive population because of their higher starting level and the fact they were gamebreakingly overpowered. Monks (especially after the DPS buffs in the 5.3 patch) will be the posterchildren for balanced but yet there's no real interest in playing them. They have their fans, but players have simply avoided them. Many have no interest in tanking or healing so that chops 2/3 specs of a Monk off the "attractive" list, this leaves you with Windwalker being enough to draw more attention to the class. Death Knights at least have two damage specs still, like Warriors.

    Hybrids are necessary additions, but I have my doubts Blizzard will release another hybrid next after the issues with Monks.
    I disagree completely. A "Dark Ranger" would just be a spooky Hunter. Add more spell damage, subtract pet. It wouldn't be unique enough.

    We'll never see another pure DPS class. It makes no sense. All the fantasy tropes are accounted for, with the exception of battle-mage. I think the new class will fill that battle-mage trope, i.e. magic-based (mana bar), moderate to heavy armor (mail), capable of tanking (and probably healing). Basically a melee-range caster with two-handed weapons.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  10. #170
    A Dark Ranger is a ranged or melee fighter using shadow energy and necromancy. It's not an emo Hunter.

    And hybrids are largely wasted when the majority of the playerbase have no interest in using the majority of their roles, which makes the class as a whole less attractive.

    As stated before, Death Knights got initial popularity to integrate them into WoW because of being massively overpowered and having a high level start. Monks however which are as balanced as any other class in the game are looking fairly pitiful in terms of class popularity. Ghostcrawler even stated that Monks and Death Knights as hybrids accomplished absolutely nothing since there's basically the same amount of people playing tank or healing roles as there was before their addition.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2013-05-11 at 01:15 AM.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    While I agree that your conclusion is a real possibility, I don't think this chart (or your data) are especially illustrative of it's certitude. A "Burning Legion" expansion and a "Demon Hunter" hero class are the path of least resistance -- which Blizzard often takes. But there's some serious issues on live that change my estimation of this from "a dead certain bet" to "improbable."
    Unless the next expansion isn't Burning Legion-centric. There's always the ominous South Seas expansion that people have been wanting to see. The Undermine is a perfect place to introduce the Tinker class, classically a Goblin hero. Since the end boss would likely be Azshara (who once allied with Sargeras himself), she could be the perfect tie-in for another Legion invasion. The expansion after that could then focus taking the fight straight to the Legion on different worlds.

  12. #172
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Similarities? D2 Druids are very different from WoW druids, D3 monks have pretty much nothing in common with WoW ones and Assassins have no direct analog in WoW.
    D2 Druids = Actually they are almost Identical to Vanilla Druids, you forget that they have changed the classes a ton in the last 10 years. Yes you can count the time from Closed Alpha WOW since much of what was done is common knowledge even if you didn't play back then.

    Assassins = Are the inspiration of the Assassination tree for Rouges, granted much has changed over the years, to include a lack of Fist Weapon Support until Recently.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    A Dark Ranger is a ranged or melee fighter using shadow energy and necromancy. It's not an emo Hunter.
    ...how is that not an emo hunter, again?

    Seriously, that's not even a recognized trope. In game terms, there's no such niche to fill. Why would they do it?
    Last edited by Vulcanasm; 2013-05-11 at 02:41 AM.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  14. #174
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    I think the sample size is too small to predict what blizz will do for the next class, or even when they'll add one.
    There's no sample size. Its simple logic. The fact that a Warcraft 3 hero (from which the majority of WoW classes have come from) exists that can fit that niche makes my case even stronger.

    It also helps my case that Tinkers are thematically different than any other class, and that the Tinker and the Alchemist are the only two heroes left who could be a class yet has none of their abilities present in WoW.

    Unlike say... The Demon Hunter.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There's no sample size. Its simple logic. The fact that a Warcraft 3 hero (from which the majority of WoW classes have come from) exists that can fit that niche makes my case even stronger.

    It also helps my case that Tinkers are thematically different than any other class, and that the Tinker and the Alchemist are the only two heroes left who could be a class yet has none of their abilities present in WoW.

    Unlike say... The Demon Hunter.
    How is their functionality not covered by Engineering already? Wouldn't they have to gut all the fun parts of Engineering to make this work?

    Personally I think it's a horrible idea, because everything "steampunk" is bad.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  16. #176
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorise View Post
    A Dark Ranger is a ranged or melee fighter using shadow energy and necromancy. It's not an emo Hunter.

    And hybrids are largely wasted when the majority of the playerbase have no interest in using the majority of their roles, which makes the class as a whole less attractive.
    Dark Ranger was a Ranged Fighter with Necromancer Casting abilities, not a melee class.

    Silence
    Black Arrow - Adds extra damage to attacks. Units killed while under the effect of Black Arrow will turn into Dark Minions.( Skeleton Army)
    Life Drain - Spell Interrupt, self heal
    Charm (Ultimate)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    ...how is that not an emo hunter, again?

    Seriously, that's not even a recognized trope. In game terms, there's no such niche to fill. Why would anyone bother?
    Ranger/Dark Rangers are a style of play that is not in WOW. We have hunters, but the pure archer is not properly represented.

    The only issue is can you make 3 specs of Ranger sound cool and not feel like a Hunter? I think they could do 1 spec and cover the Ranger/Dark Ranger rather nicely. But it would be added to the end of another Class, ie a 4th Spec on Hunters which sacrifices the Ability to have pets for greater Ranged weapon skills and control.

    Or as I said before Make Demon Hunters, do a Melee Spec, a Caster Spec and a Ranger Spec. <-still my vote. Sadly they'll want to add Tanking to it so Melee would be the Tank spec.

  17. #177
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    Fukken bards kthx. Covers that entire shit right up. Bards in other games use bows/xbows/guns modified into their music equipment. It's sick as hell. SONIMANCY.

  18. #178
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There's no sample size. Its simple logic. The fact that a Warcraft 3 hero (from which the majority of WoW classes have come from) exists that can fit that niche makes my case even stronger.

    It also helps my case that Tinkers are thematically different than any other class, and that the Tinker and the Alchemist are the only two heroes left who could be a class yet has none of their abilities present in WoW.

    Unlike say... The Demon Hunter.
    Both are 100% in the game and have been from day one, they made them into Professions. Granted I would play a tinker if they did it, but I know for a fact they will not give that as a class. Which is sad because they could do a lot of different things.

    Reason Why not, Gnomes and Goblins. I think that speaks for it's self really. Would they add a Class which represents the Joke races? No.

    So lets look at the full list of Hero Classes:


    Paladin · Archmage · Mountain King · Blood Mage
    Blademaster · Far Seer · Tauren Chieftain · Shadow Hunter
    Lich · Death Knight · Dread Lord · Crypt Lord
    Keeper of the Grove · Priestess of the Moon · Demon Hunter · Warden
    Naga Sea Witch · Dark Ranger · Pandaren Brewmaster · Beastmaster · Pit Lord · Goblin Tinker · Firelord · Goblin Alchemist

    Now lets see were they are.

    Paladin - Full Class
    Archmage - Max Level Mage with a Title
    Mountain King -Dwarven Shamen
    Blood Mage - Mage/Warlock spells
    Blademaster - Warrior/Mage Spell
    Far Seer - Orc Shaman
    Tauren Chieftain - Tauren Shaman
    Shadow Hunter - Not in Game Essentially a Caster
    Lich - Race Type/Necromancer
    Death Knight - Full Class in Game
    Dread Lord - Race Type/Warlock
    Crypt Lord -Race Type/Death Knight/Warrior
    Keeper of the Grove - Race Type/Druid
    Priestess of the Moon - Covered by Priests and Rogues
    Demon Hunter - Class Is not in Game, Some spells split between Rogues and Warlocks
    Warden - Class Not in Game Spells covered By Night Elf Racials and Rogues
    Naga Sea Witch - Race Type/Some spells given to Hunters, some given to Shamen
    Dark Ranger - Class Not in Game/ Some spells covered by Hunters, Death Knights and Warlock Pets.
    Pandaren Brewmaster - Class was merged in to the Monk class.
    Beastmaster - Class was merged in to the Hunter Class
    Pit Lord - Race type/ Spells split by Mages and Warlocks
    Goblin Tinker - Class not in Game/ Spells given to Gnome and Goblin Racials and the Engineering Profession
    Firelord - Race Type/Spells given to Mages and Warlocks.
    Goblin Alchemist - Class Not in Game one spell given to the Alchemist Profession

    ----

    Shadow Hunter
    Demon Hunter
    Warden
    Dark Ranger
    Goblin Tinker
    Goblin Alchemist

    These are the Only hero classes left that they could consider. You can merge a couple of them together.

    Shadow Hunter, Demon Hunter, Warden, and Dark Ranger could be merged thank to Diablo 3.
    Tinker/Alchemist could be merged as well.

    So really We have two possible Hero Classes left:

    Demon Hunter (melee spec: Warden, Caster Spec: Shadow Hunter, Range Spec: Ranger)
    'Tinker' (Range: Bomber, Melee: Saw, Healer: Potions)

    Only one really works within the frame work of itemization currently in game, but who knows.

  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Dark Ranger was a Ranged Fighter with Necromancer Casting abilities, not a melee class.

    Silence
    Black Arrow - Adds extra damage to attacks. Units killed while under the effect of Black Arrow will turn into Dark Minions.( Skeleton Army)
    Life Drain - Spell Interrupt, self heal
    Charm (Ultimate)
    So it's a Survival Hunter with no pet, Glyph of Siphon Life attached to Silencing Shot, and undead minions instead of hunter pets.

    ...tell me again how this defines a new class.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 07:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Ranger/Dark Rangers are a style of play that is not in WOW. We have hunters, but the pure archer is not properly represented.

    The only issue is can you make 3 specs of Ranger sound cool and not feel like a Hunter? I think they could do 1 spec and cover the Ranger/Dark Ranger rather nicely. But it would be added to the end of another Class, ie a 4th Spec on Hunters which sacrifices the Ability to have pets for greater Ranged weapon skills and control.
    Yeah, let me tell you something I learned in other MMOs: Pure archers are extraordinarily boring. This is their life: "Aaaaaaaaaaand I shoot. Aaaaaaaaaand I shoot. Aaaaaaand I shoot."
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  20. #180
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    How is their functionality not covered by Engineering already? Wouldn't they have to gut all the fun parts of Engineering to make this work?
    Engineering is a crafting profession, not a class. A crafting profession is for making items and weaponry. That isn't the function of a class. Also none of the Tinkers abilities are present within the engineering profession anyway, because you can't give a profession functional active abilities, passive abilities, or cooldowns. So no, a Tinker class would not gut engineering, and engineering doesn't cover a Tinker class' functionality.

    Personally I think it's a horrible idea, because everything "steampunk" is bad.
    You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 03:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Uennie View Post
    Fukken bards kthx. Covers that entire shit right up. Bards in other games use bows/xbows/guns modified into their music equipment. It's sick as hell. SONIMANCY.
    Bards would be cool. Only issue is that we have no basis for such a class in WoW or Warcraft.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-05-11 at 03:52 AM.

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