1. #1

    Clearing up Clemency

    Something I keep seeing happen in general is that a lot of people misunderstand how Clemency works. What I thought at first, and a lot of people still do, is that you basically have two separate Hand spells of each type. Therefore if you alternated them you could HoP every 2.5 min. This is wrong in the long term.

    What's misleading is that when you have consumed one use, wait a bit, and then use the spell again. The first use will have been partially charged up from that delay and make it look like it will be ready faster.

    Example with HoP:
    Cast charge '1'.
    Wait 150s (2.5min).
    Cast '2'.
    Since you've waited you'll be able to recast '1' in another 150s so we'll do that
    Wait 150s
    Cast '1'.
    Now leading up to this you were on 1/2 of one charge so when you cast '1' again you're totally tapped out.
    Wait 300s
    cast '1'
    wait 300s
    ...

    So for the first few uses at the start it looks like you can use it every 150s but that's cause the partial recharge carries over and tricks you.


    Another way of looking at it is imagining that you have a hidden bar with 600 (in the case of HoP) 'units'. You gain 1 unit a second and it costs 300 units to cast 1 HoP. Eventually you're going to get to the point of just having to wait 300s to cast HoP again. And at that point it will be a minimum of 300s each time. Unless of course you never cast it more frequently then 300s.

    Applying this concept to my previous example:
    600 'units'
    Cast charge '1'. (300 units)
    Wait 150s (450 units)
    Cast '2'. (150 units)
    Wait 150s (300 units)
    Cast '1'. (0 units)
    Wait 300s
    cast '1'
    wait 300s
    ...


    The best example is that the two charges work like a pair of DK runes (of the same type).

    You easily test this out with different times of course by grabbing Clemency and playing with Hand of Freedom.

    This also explains why afer a wipe where you've used it twice, only one charge gets 'refreshed'. If they were independent then both uses would come off CD afterwards.

    Once I realized how the talent actually functioned I lost interest in it greatly as protection. Especially with regards to self clearing effects with Divine Shield, and the Divine Purpose bonus, I think Unbreakable Spirit is a far better option.

  2. #2
    I've never taken this talent precisely for the reason it doesn't work the way you would expect it too.

    If I use HoP twice in quick succession I expect that in 5 minutes I'll be able to use it twice again in quick succession. They should consider adding Hand spells to Unbreakable Spirit and just reworking this talent.

  3. #3
    It seems fairly simple.You start off with 2 charges. You can go up to 2 charges.
    I have no idea what can be hard / confusing about this. (Esp to anyone who leveled a monk to lvl 10+ and seen how roll works)

    Regarding it vs US . It just depends on situation and how you need to use it. I find it fairly nice to be able to have double hand of sac / salv available at any moment, or HoP if i need to use it on someone else.
    Last edited by celinamuna; 2013-05-07 at 10:41 PM.

  4. #4
    The Patient Cronosmash's Avatar
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    Yeah, you have to make it work as it is. The game as it is, Clemency is mandatory and the "real CD" of 5 mins is way out of hand. But this is not crazy weak... just have to use BoP when it's REALLY needed. Sac should be 1 min CD on the other hand... and Blinding Light too - plus Repentance instant for Ret (think Quaking Palm 15 secs CD instant disorient baseline for all monks WHAT THE FCK).

    Nice clarification, not everyone know it =)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    I've never taken this talent precisely for the reason it doesn't work the way you would expect it too.

    If I use HoP twice in quick succession I expect that in 5 minutes I'll be able to use it twice again in quick succession. They should consider adding Hand spells to Unbreakable Spirit and just reworking this talent.
    And it's still the best one unless you're prot. That isn't how any other charge spells such as Charge, Conflag, Roll, etc work. Why would our Hands work that way?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrik View Post
    Once I realized how the talent actually functioned I lost interest in it greatly as protection. Especially with regards to self clearing effects with Divine Shield, and the Divine Purpose bonus, I think Unbreakable Spirit is a far better option.
    Yep.

    Saw you posted this in another thread over in R&D, and tried to echo that, but yes, UbS provides more reliable debuff clearing for personal debuffs via a TRUE 2.5 min clear in Bubble. PLUS 5min CD on LoH. PLUS 30-45sec (depending on haste/RNG) CD on DivProt.

    Unless you NEED to make use of other hands (like Sac specifically, or Freedom even), UbS is far superior IMO. The only fight that I don't use UbS over Clemency is Council HC, where I need to have multiple Sac's for Frostbite and an occasional freedom for sand traps.
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  7. #7
    I don't get why you guys think Clemency is so good. Hand of Purity #1 <3.

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Revvo View Post
    I don't get why you guys think Clemency is so good. Hand of Purity #1 <3.
    Most of us are saying it's NOT good. At least/especially from a Prot standpoint.

    It's good-to-mandatory for Ret in PVP, but I agree that HoPur is likely more useful most of the time in PVE.

    Holy just does whatever it wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    , UbS provides more reliable debuff clearing for personal debuffs via a TRUE 2.5 min clear in Bubble. PLUS 5min CD on LoH. PLUS 30-45sec (depending on haste/RNG) CD on DivProt.
    So if I am tanking Horridon throughout the fight, it's better for me to pick UbS than clemency for clearing my stacks?

    I was trying to work out the best way to clear the stacks with clemency - I think I opted for bubble-bop1-bop2-bubble-bop1-bop2, but am not sure that was correct. The fight was long enough to get both divine shield and blessing of protection 5 min CDs to renew.

  10. #10
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    So if I am tanking Horridon throughout the fight, it's better for me to pick UbS than clemency for clearing my stacks?

    I was trying to work out the best way to clear the stacks with clemency - I think I opted for bubble-bop1-bop2-bubble-bop1-bop2, but am not sure that was correct. The fight was long enough to get both divine shield and blessing of protection 5 min CDs to renew.
    If you're the only paladin, I think you will need Clemency, otherwise you won't have enough bubbles. Bubble the first door, BoP the second, bubble the third and you likely won't have BoP up for the fourth. From looking at random logs and our own, I'm going with the assumption that each door lasts around 2 minutes. If you have at least another paladin, then Unbreakable Spirit seems to work.

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  11. #11
    I tank Horridon (BrM on adds), and do it with UbS only.

    Bubble after first orb is out. Sac add-tank.
    BoP after 2nd orb.
    Bubble after 3rd orb. Sac add-tank.
    You will be ~15-20 seconds short on bubble after the 4th door; what I do is pick up all adds from the monk, and he tanks Horridon while I keep the casters silenced and we clear up the adds. He usually gets 2-3 stacks of TP during this.
    Bubble off your own stacks and taunt back after a TP.
    War-God comes down; pop lust, Wings and HA. Tank ALL the things, do cray cray deepz. HA-wall will last ~30-35 sec, then chain GoAK. BoP yourself during a charge, and you can run the entire last phase yourself.

    It's how I do it anyway, and usually end up with 240-250k+.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  12. #12
    Moderator Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You will be ~15-20 seconds short on bubble after the 4th door; what I do is pick up all adds from the monk, and he tanks Horridon while I keep the casters silenced and we clear up the adds. He usually gets 2-3 stacks of TP during this.
    Bubble off your own stacks and taunt back after a TP.
    Or this probably works better. Unbreakable Spirit is great for the reduced DP. We have 3 paladins in my group, so we're swimming in bubbles, and sometimes they throw one on me just for lulz.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    Or this probably works better. Unbreakable Spirit is great for the reduced DP. We have 3 paladins in my group, so we're swimming in bubbles, and sometimes they throw one on me just for lulz.
    As long as you let your tank know he needs to tank the boss, it's much easier I've found, and gives you more uptime on DivProt throughout the fight (glyph it, obv). Sometimes we have a Ret with us, but I prefer to play as self-sufficiently as possible. Plus, I'm stubborn.

    It's also a nice bonus, in that we can use our plethora of interrupts and FoJ (you ARE using FoJ, aren't you?!) to help control the last 3-4 adds during that final transition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    You will be ~15-20 seconds short on bubble after the 4th door
    What HP Talent choice do you use for this? I imagine it may be possible with good CD usage

  15. #15
    I also am the Horridon tank for our group, and I use Unbreakable Spirit as well. I don't clear at each door, however. My partner (another Protection paladin) pulls to build vengeance and to take an early stack of Triple Puncture. She then moves on to picking up adds - the vengeance lead from taking Horridon for a few moments helps with some of our more trigger-happy DPS - and I take Horridon.

    After that I don't clear by door, but by Triple Puncture stacks. I try to let them go as high as 10, but sometimes clear as early as 7, depending on how well I'm timing my SotR to the TP and how well my healer is keeping up and needs to split attention helping our raid healers out. For timing SotR, it helps that probably about half of the TPs I take are after Horridon has charged someone, and he *always* does a TP as soon as he's back in melee with me.

    This usually results in my first stack clear somewhere during the second door. I alternate DS - BoP - DS and this usually gets us through the last door. My partner picks up Horridon when Jalak comes out, I pick up Jalak, and we finish the fight. She has full stack clears to work with, and if something goes awry it's not long before DS comes back around and I've got a clear for myself.

    In answer to your question, Xs, I can't speak for Nairobi but I use Divine Purpose myself. DP procs count as using three Holy Power as far as Unbreakable Spirit is concerned, which leads to reliably coming very close to having a 30s Divine Protection, 2.5 min DS, and 5 min LoH. The procs also last long enough that you can sit on them or chain them as the fight demands, though usually I chain them.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Camaris View Post
    In answer to your question, Xs, I can't speak for Nairobi but I use Divine Purpose myself. DP procs count as using three Holy Power as far as Unbreakable Spirit is concerned, which leads to reliably coming very close to having a 30s Divine Protection, 2.5 min DS, and 5 min LoH. The procs also last long enough that you can sit on them or chain them as the fight demands, though usually I chain them.
    That was my thinking, although I'm not sure if DP or HA would provide the best UbS return for fight conditions like the ones being discussed. The obvious counter-point being that DP is random, but in the case of a 2.5m window I'd argue the random aspect is reasonably reliable.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    What HP Talent choice do you use for this? I imagine it may be possible with good CD usage
    HA all the way baby. Use it on door 1 (on pull), door 3, and then it's up with wings for lust to burn war-god and horridon. I literally 1-tank the last phase of the encounter with only HA and GoAK, while doing stupid DPS to Jalak and Horridon and getting retard-stronk vengeance levels for SS.

    HA gets you ~75% maxed on CD resets alone, depending on GC procs and haste levels. Add that to its excellent function as an on-demand CD that is stronger and longer than GoAK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I tank Horridon (BrM on adds), and do it with UbS only.

    Bubble after first orb is out. Sac add-tank.
    BoP after 2nd orb.
    Bubble after 3rd orb. Sac add-tank.
    You will be ~15-20 seconds short on bubble after the 4th door; what I do is pick up all adds from the monk, and he tanks Horridon while I keep the casters silenced and we clear up the adds. He usually gets 2-3 stacks of TP during this.
    Bubble off your own stacks and taunt back after a TP.
    War-God comes down; pop lust, Wings and HA. Tank ALL the things, do cray cray deepz. HA-wall will last ~30-35 sec, then chain GoAK. BoP yourself during a charge, and you can run the entire last phase yourself.

    It's how I do it anyway, and usually end up with 240-250k+.
    On Horridon, I bubble usually after 12-13 stacks the first 2-3 times, and then will bubble/bop as soon as possible when it's just Horridon up. Granted, I did die this week with a 6 stack and the boss at like 30%... but that was a mistake on my fault for not using a cooldown in time :x



  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    On Horridon, I bubble usually after 12-13 stacks the first 2-3 times, and then will bubble/bop as soon as possible when it's just Horridon up. Granted, I did die this week with a 6 stack and the boss at like 30%... but that was a mistake on my fault for not using a cooldown in time :x
    I was doing that on normal, but I got unlucky one week on heroic when NOT clearing between doors, and had 7-8 stacks going to door 2. TP timer was up, and apparently even though I hit ShotR as soon as he was in melee range, TP went off first (unmitigated) and ended up gibbing me with a TP/melee combo-breaker, so I just stopped trying to cheese that.

    I guess I COULD do that now (and/or SHOULD do that to push up veng for ranking), but I've just been in my habit from above since that time. Besides, pushing stacks that high when only 1-2 debuffs on Horridon seems to be less important than when he's got higher stacks, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

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