Thread: Armor buff?

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  1. #41
    As it reads right now, it is an increase to Nature's Guardian to passively give 16% mastery up from 12%. This has no effect on any other mastery you get from gear, only the base stat itself. It doesn't make mastery any better/valuable. It got increased 4%, which should give maybe an additional ~5k armor if you're sitting at a little over 100k in bear form. That's going to give an additional physical damage reduction of around 1%. So if something hit you for 700k before, it will now hit you for 693k (assuming the ability doesn't bypass armor). I changed my mind - there's no way a change this miniscule will make a difference, even in heroic modes.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I dont get it, its a buff that lets us take less physical dmg doenst matter if 10 or 25m.

    And didnt they change mastery scaling with 5.1 or 5.2?

    Just be happy we got something. And pls dont always take one boss as an example especially not one where boss and adds have unique abilities. We are not that far behind, in 25m you need more HP and mastery than in 10m, so it will help us in 25m.

    The buff is totaly fine wasnt even expecting one.
    The thing is, 10man bears are completly fine, although other tanks have en edge on tank-nuke mechanics as they can absorb/reduce it's damage and bears cannot.
    in 25man, the damage on those abilities is so much higher it can mean death for a bear where other tanks live anyway, for exemple, ji-kun talon rake is a joke for prot paladins whereas its a real threat for bears in 25man, and youll need more cooldowns/external cooldowns even.

    So since those situations arent as big of a problem for 10man, the armor buff is just a nice buff that probably will go unnoticed, but it's still there regardless. As for 25m, it might be a small thing that help edge out problems.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhu View Post
    As it reads right now, it is an increase to Nature's Guardian to passively give 16% mastery up from 12%. This has no effect on any other mastery you get from gear, only the base stat itself. It doesn't make mastery any better/valuable. It got increased 4%, which should give maybe an additional ~5k armor if you're sitting at a little over 100k in bear form. That's going to give an additional physical damage reduction of around 1%. So if something hit you for 700k before, it will now hit you for 693k (assuming the ability doesn't bypass armor). I changed my mind - there's no way a change this miniscule will make a difference, even in heroic modes.
    Quick little lesson on how Mastery works (for every class).

    Mastery gives you an X bonus for every point of Mastery you have. For Guardians it's currently 1.5% Armor, going up to 2% armor in 5.3. Every level 90 has 8 base Mastery (equivalent to 4800 Mastery Rating). Therefore you will always receive 12% (16% in 5.3) extra armor no matter what gear or buffs you have.

    Gear and buffs just make this bonus bigger through additional Mastery rating at a conversion of 1 Mastery = 1.5% (2% in 5.3) = 600 Mastery Rating.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Quick little lesson on how Mastery works (for every class).

    Mastery gives you an X bonus for every point of Mastery you have. For Guardians it's currently 1.5% Armor, going up to 2% armor in 5.3. Every level 90 has 8 base Mastery (equivalent to 4800 Mastery Rating). Therefore you will always receive 12% (16% in 5.3) extra armor no matter what gear or buffs you have.

    Gear and buffs just make this bonus bigger through additional Mastery rating at a conversion of 1 Mastery = 1.5% (2% in 5.3) = 600 Mastery Rating.
    That's just not how this change reads to me. If, as a guardian druid, you have zero mastery on your gear, you will have 12% from Nature's Guardian. In 5.3, you would have 16%. Are you saying additional mastery from gear has been increased as well? So that a druid with 20% mastery in 5.2 will have 25% mastery (and not 24%)? If this is how it works (someone on PTR please confirm this) it does make mastery on gear slightly more valuable than it is today, but it's still a poor stat overall and this will remain a poor buff. If the problem is that the druid is having trouble surviving a tank killing mechanic, this just isn't going to solve that.

    "Just be glad we got something". Umm... no. We have bigger problems than armor (our active mitigation was discussed earlier). Until I'm certain Blizzard is looking into them, I'm not going to accept a change that is all but irrelevant as the solution.

  5. #45
    That's just not how this change reads to me.
    Go back, look at when the 5.2 mastery change was datamined. It read identically to this, all it said was that nature's guardian would give 12% instead of 10%. That involved a scaling increase, but the datamining only picks up the base change.

  6. #46
    That's just not how this change reads to me. If, as a guardian druid, you have zero mastery on your gear, you will have 12% from Nature's Guardian. In 5.3, you would have 16%. Are you saying additional mastery from gear has been increased as well? So that a druid with 20% mastery in 5.2 will have 25% mastery (and not 24%)?
    Yes Mastery from Gear is also increased.

    20% * (2/1.5) = 20% * 1.33333333...... = 26.66666666....%

    It does make Mastery more valuable. The thing is in 10h you'll be fine with a Rage build (maybe a Stamina flask or Trinket here and there) and just playing correctly. It's 25h where this will help, although you're still better off gemming Stamina and using Stamina trinkets instead of Mastery trinkets.

    Once we get into T16 we'll likely see Mastery become significantly more desirable for both raid sizes since we'll have more Rage than we know what to do with for the most part.
    Last edited by Arielle; 2013-05-13 at 02:06 AM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    Yes Mastery from Gear is also increased.

    20% * (2/1.5) = 20% * 1.33333333...... = 26.66666666....%

    It does make Mastery more valuable. The thing is in 10h you'll be fine with a Rage build (maybe a Stamina flask or Trinket here and there) and just playing correctly. It's 25h where this will help, although you're still better off gemming Stamina and using Stamina trinkets instead of Mastery trinkets.

    Once we get into T16 we'll likely see Mastery become significantly more desirable for both raid sizes since we'll have more Rage than we know what to do with for the most part.
    My personal concern is that the improvement in physical damage reduction is so low in relation to the amount of damage that we take that it won't significantly alter our survivability, particularly in 25s where overheals are the standard, anyways. The Mastery increase, assuming the 1 Mastery = 2% Armor, means we need approximately 20400 Mastery (or ~68%) at a base armor of 82529 (which is what I currently have in Bear form with iLvl 521 average, ignoring Mastery). However, half of that Mastery still gives us almost 72% armor, and can be obtained pretty easily through gear and buffs. Even now, with my (relatively low 18%) Mastery and raid buffs, I still sit at roughly 70-71% armor. Best case scenario, we could shave off another 4% physical, which on a 400k swing is what, 16k?

    From a more subjective experience, I can already cap armor in 25s if I'm using the Delicate Vial (which is one of the reasons I cut so much Mastery) because of its synergy with Savage Defense/Brew Symbio. This Mastery change will have little-to-no influence over my gearing, consequently, nor will it influence my rotations; Stamina is still my best friend, as our gear is so flush with crit/haste I could practically ignore gearing for them as well.

    The changes I'd like to see would be either A.), an active raid CD we can use while in Bear form, even if it's just a modded Tranq, B.) a modification on T&C to a percentage decrease of damage in lieu of a base number (would make timing its use even more advantageous than simple spamming), or C.), a kill-shot survival CD like most of the other tanks carry. I think any one of these would give us an option that makes us a tank that can either mitigate the large strikes better (if we know what we're doing) or some way to contribute more to the raid if we can't.

    P.S. Full disclosure, I'm actually quite happy with what Guardians bring to the table, and, aside from a few gimmicks Prot Pallys have (which could be replicated with Paladin healers/DPS, if you really wanted to), I have no problem going toe-to-toe with any other tank, and can both soak and mitigate more damage than my Pally partner, all while crushing him on meters. This change is essentially found money for me; however, if they are trying to settle some perceived difference between tank specs, I'm not certain this change would be significant enough to close any gaps.
    Last edited by Lyricist; 2013-05-13 at 09:46 AM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyricist View Post

    The changes I'd like to see would be either A.), an active raid CD we can use while in Bear form, even if it's just a modded Tranq, B.) a modification on T&C to a percentage decrease of damage in lieu of a base number (would make timing its use even more advantageous than simple spamming), or C.), a kill-shot survival CD like most of the other tanks carry. I think any one of these would give us an option that makes us a tank that can either mitigate the large strikes better (if we know what we're doing) or some way to contribute more to the raid if we can't.

    P.S. Full disclosure, I'm actually quite happy with what Guardians bring to the table, and, aside from a few gimmicks Prot Pallys have (which could be replicated with Paladin healers/DPS, if you really wanted to), I have no problem going toe-to-toe with any other tank, and can both soak and mitigate more damage than my Pally partner, all while crushing him on meters. This change is essentially found money for me; however, if they are trying to settle some perceived difference between tank specs, I'm not certain this change would be significant enough to close any gaps.
    I agree on the first one would be nice but all the others would make us totaly broken^^. IF T&C would work they way it does now against stuff like Talon rake or other physical non avoidable abilities would be more than enough.

    On one try yesterday on jikun i died with 4hp overkill, i would have taken that armor buff anyday. 4% of a 400k swing is 16k, which is a good amount.

    I am very happy with my druid too. Buffing armor is not the best way but I can see how hard it is to buff a druid right now. Druids take close to 0 autoattack dmg from bosses. Even if they do with 4t15 and rps build you have no problem healing it up yourself, now if they gave us stuff to actively mitigate Specials, that would make us too op, to compensate that they would have to change alot, and i cant see that happening mid expansion, or minor patch like 5.3. 5.4 maybe. But the armor buff is a buff for ToT not for the next tier. And this extra armor will help on fights like horridon and jikun especially in 25m.

  9. #49
    My personal concern is that the improvement in physical damage reduction is so low in relation to the amount of damage that we take that it won't significantly alter our survivability, particularly in 25s where overheals are the standard, anyways. The Mastery increase, assuming the 1 Mastery = 2% Armor, means we need approximately 20400 Mastery (or ~68%) at a base armor of 82529 (which is what I currently have in Bear form with iLvl 521 average, ignoring Mastery). However, half of that Mastery still gives us almost 72% armor, and can be obtained pretty easily through gear and buffs. Even now, with my (relatively low 18%) Mastery and raid buffs, I still sit at roughly 70-71% armor. Best case scenario, we could shave off another 4% physical, which on a 400k swing is what, 16k?
    Ok, let's redo this scenario with the correct numbers.

    Your armor in caster form (taken from the link in the sig): 19193
    Bear: 19193 * 4.3 = 82530
    After Mastery = 82530 * 1.259729 = 103964.9782775
    Armor DR vs l93: 103964.9782775 / (103964.9782775 + 4037.5*93 – 317117.5) = 103964.9782775 / (162334.9782775) = 0.64043485501799450598075372634936
    Total DR: 1 * 0.88 * 0.9 * (1-0.64043485501799450598075372634936) = 0.28477559482574835126324304873131

    After buff:

    Your armor in caster form (taken from the link in the sig): 19193
    Bear: 19193 * 4.3 = 82530
    After Mastery = 82530 * 1.3463 = 111110.139
    Armor DR vs l93: 111110.139 / (111110.139 + 4037.5*93 – 317117.5) = 111110.139 / (169480.139) = 0.65559386283014554289455710205666
    Total DR: 1 * 0.88 * 0.9 * (1-0.65559386283014554289455710205666) = 0.27276966063852473002751077517113

    You will need ~22k Mastery Rating from gear to cap at ~522. However that drops significantly to around 18k in 548 gear (projected T16 normal), or 16k in T16 heroic (561).

    It's not meant to make our existing amounts of Mastery better, rather to increase the benefit from adding more. That it accomplishes pretty well. The only problem is that the best way to accomplish this is via gear, since Stamina gems/flasks/trinkets are always better for that purpose (adding EH).

    A.), an active raid CD we can use while in Bear form, even if it's just a modded Tranq
    You'd die anyway since you wouldn't be able to dodge anything, if this was used while tanking. No real point.

    B.) a modification on T&C to a percentage decrease of damage in lieu of a base number (would make timing its use even more advantageous than simple spamming)
    Won't happen since it will lead to sitting on procs and wasting Rage (already does actually). Plus you can already time it to help reduce combo damage.

    C.), a kill-shot survival CD like most of the other tanks carry. I think any one of these would give us an option that makes us a tank that can either mitigate the large strikes better (if we know what we're doing)
    As I've mentioned before many times, we're meant to soak and heal them not reduce them to pitiful amounts of damage.

  10. #50
    Arielle, you know this for a fact?

    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    I agree on the first one would be nice but all the others would make us totaly broken^^. IF T&C would work they way it does now against stuff like Talon rake or other physical non avoidable abilities would be more than enough.

    On one try yesterday on jikun i died with 4hp overkill, i would have taken that armor buff anyday. 4% of a 400k swing is 16k, which is a good amount.

    I am very happy with my druid too. Buffing armor is not the best way but I can see how hard it is to buff a druid right now. Druids take close to 0 autoattack dmg from bosses. Even if they do with 4t15 and rps build you have no problem healing it up yourself, now if they gave us stuff to actively mitigate Specials, that would make us too op, to compensate that they would have to change alot, and i cant see that happening mid expansion, or minor patch like 5.3. 5.4 maybe. But the armor buff is a buff for ToT not for the next tier. And this extra armor will help on fights like horridon and jikun especially in 25m.
    It's not a 4% additional physical damage reduction, it's additional mastery. The physical damage reduction from the extra armor is going to be much smaller.

    Anyway, I tend to agree with Lyricist that the reduction is going to be so low it will be hard to notice.

  11. #51
    If refered to the 4% the one before me was talking about. It every buff you will get now is going to be hard to notice. Its there to help you a bit with those hard hitting abilities like talon rake or puncture. You still ahve to use your SD t&c and FR, but maybe survive a big hit if you have bad luck with rng.

    And as monks can dodge while castintg why shouldnt druids too.
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-05-13 at 03:06 PM.

  12. #52
    Arielle, you know this for a fact?
    Yes. 10char

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Viromand View Post
    If refered to the 4% the one before me was talking about. It every buff you will get now is going to be hard to notice. Its there to help you a bit with those hard hitting abilities like talon rake or puncture. You still ahve to use your SD t&c and FR, but maybe survive a big hit if you have bad luck with rng.

    And as monks can dodge while castintg why shouldnt druids too.
    It's more like 1-2%, which will hardly be noticeable - especially on slow, large attacks.

    I don't want to look a gift bear in the mouth, but this change makes it seem like Blizzard feels tanks are not as balanced as they should be and are attempting to bring them more in line. The problem is that they are trying to do that with a change that is all but negligible. I just think there are a lot more areas that need examining - hell, if they want to look at our mastery, how about making it not suck as values increase? That seems like a good place to start.

  14. #54
    especially on slow, large attacks.
    These don't exist. I don't know if anyone is slower than 2.0 this entire expansion. I'll assume you meant specials (like Talon Rake) instead.

    I don't want to look a gift bear in the mouth, but this change makes it seem like Blizzard feels tanks are not as balanced as they should be and are attempting to bring them more in line.
    That's exactly what this and the SotR change are designed to do. This one only really affects h25, while the Shield one affects everybody.

    I just think there are a lot more areas that need examining
    Do you have any examples beyond T&C?

    hell, if they want to look at our mastery, how about making it not suck as values increase? That seems like a good place to start.
    What does this mean? Every point has the exact same TTL value. Yes the TDR gain gets lower, but nobody cares about TDR.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Arielle View Post
    These don't exist. I don't know if anyone is slower than 2.0 this entire expansion. I'll assume you meant specials (like Talon Rake) instead.
    Yes, tank-killing mechanics are pretty much the whole focus of the thread.

    That's exactly what this and the SotR change are designed to do. This one only really affects h25, while the Shield one affects everybody.
    Nerfing Paladins does nothing for the survival of Druids. If you think a 1% physical damage reduction is going to accomplish this, I don't know what to tell you. I think we're at loggerheads on this one.

    Do you have any examples beyond T&C?
    Several have been listed already; the main one being the extremely RNG-dependent nature of Savage Defense. Unlike the other four tanks, we can do everything right and still get absolutely wrecked because instead of reducing percentages of incoming damage with our AM, we either avoid all or none. This is a problem especially when it comes to mechanics that can't be dodged and/or nearly kill us outright (an issue on heroics). I hate relying on luck because eventually it will run out, and when it does we become super-spikey and more difficult to heal.

  16. #56
    High Overlord Motoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhu View Post
    Yes, tank-killing mechanics are pretty much the whole focus of the thread.



    Nerfing Paladins does nothing for the survival of Druids. If you think a 1% physical damage reduction is going to accomplish this, I don't know what to tell you. I think we're at loggerheads on this one.



    Several have been listed already; the main one being the extremely RNG-dependent nature of Savage Defense. Unlike the other four tanks, we can do everything right and still get absolutely wrecked because instead of reducing percentages of incoming damage with our AM, we either avoid all or none. This is a problem especially when it comes to mechanics that can't be dodged and/or nearly kill us outright (an issue on heroics). I hate relying on luck because eventually it will run out, and when it does we become super-spikey and more difficult to heal.
    If you're having problems surviving any of the un-dodge-able mechanics then you are simply not using cooldowns properly, the only fight that Guardian has a disadvantage on would be Heroic Animus Massive Golem tanking but considering how powerful we are in the right hands overall this tier isn't bad. Sure, we were borderline OP last tier but unless things change we'll be in a very very good spot for next progress.

    To the people that keep whining that Guardians have no raid utility or we should be able to cast things while tanking, we have that it's called Nature's Vigil and it is very strong, this is from a 25 H PoV but it averages at around 25-35k HPs on most fights. You can always fit in a Tranq when needed just co-ordinate it with your other tank if you have to not be tanking for 8 seconds that is not the end of the world.

    TLDR; less QQ and more adapting to situations.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Motoma View Post
    If you're having problems surviving any of the un-dodge-able mechanics then you are simply not using cooldowns properly, the only fight that Guardian has a disadvantage on would be Heroic Animus Massive Golem tanking but considering how powerful we are in the right hands overall this tier isn't bad. Sure, we were borderline OP last tier but unless things change we'll be in a very very good spot for next progress.

    To the people that keep whining that Guardians have no raid utility or we should be able to cast things while tanking, we have that it's called Nature's Vigil and it is very strong, this is from a 25 H PoV but it averages at around 25-35k HPs on most fights. You can always fit in a Tranq when needed just co-ordinate it with your other tank if you have to not be tanking for 8 seconds that is not the end of the world.

    TLDR; less QQ and more adapting to situations.
    I think you should read the first three pages if you want to join in the discussion, then post something constructive and relevant if you can. I'm pretty sure everyone here is in agreement that guardians are in a pretty good place.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhu View Post
    Several have been listed already; the main one being the extremely RNG-dependent nature of Savage Defense. Unlike the other four tanks, we can do everything right and still get absolutely wrecked because instead of reducing percentages of incoming damage with our AM, we either avoid all or none. This is a problem especially when it comes to mechanics that can't be dodged and/or nearly kill us outright (an issue on heroics). I hate relying on luck because eventually it will run out, and when it does we become super-spikey and more difficult to heal.
    The armor buff does exactly that, it helps us with attack we dodnt dodge. Its not like we have cooldowns for big hits. So lets see a current haste pala blocks with their AM 45% on a boss hit, if they use it correctly. Now with the armor difference its about 35% more than a druid takes now they get nerfed we get buffed, it will be about 28% less dmg now if you have boneshield active you take 18% more dmg than a paladin.
    So with t&c we can block the next melee, and with FR you can heal yourself full before the hit comes and after it aswell. Yes we take a bit more dmg on big hits, but thats what cooldowns are for and there are no bosses where you need more than you have and if something goes wrong you still have another tank or healers to give you some extras.
    On dot dmg and melee hit (with or without procs) were are much stronger. And easier to heal.

  19. #59
    Mastery: Nature's Guardian is now 33% stronger (2% per point instead of 1.5%)

    That's a solid increase in scaling - that'll certainly help with melee hits that get through pre/post burst hits that ignore armor.

  20. #60
    so i have 103.574 armor =69,13% avoidance after buff 74,13%... i'm not hc just 520 but 75% cap is near...4% buff cui prodest?

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