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  1. #81
    Warlock version of the death knight ability Army of the Dead.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Kjc removed.
    No. Just no. Casting while moving has to stay. NO MORE STANDING STILL FOR ANYTHING. ONCE YOU GO KJC YOU NEVER GO BACK.

  3. #83
    Except that the ability takes away the biggest challenge of playing a caster class, this is absoloutely horrible design.

    Heroic SoO progress 14/14
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  4. #84
    Blademaster Malvanis's Avatar
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    PVE View of Warlocks this Expansion

    Warlocks

    The 3 new resource systems are AMAZING. They seperate the 3 specs like never before and they work fantastically and require managing that the Cata soulshard system had very little of. Pandemic was another great ability to add: All the players that had difficulties with clipping dots were now free of such a responsibility while the upper tier of players who could manage this new ability to its maximum potential also saw a big dps increase. This ability also greatly increased the skillcap of affliction as refreshing dots at the right times now because an issue of procs and duration rather than: DOTs falling off, refresh. Demonic Gateway brought HUGE utility to warlocks in raid although this became perhaps too much as every 25H guild now runs with 4 warlocks and 4 is more or less considered mandatory for Lei Shen heroic. Healthstones received a huge buff now scaling from the users HP and not the warlocks as well as having 3 charges effectively giving warlocks a reusable raid cooldown and further adding to their utility. The Grimoire Talents were fixed in ToT so that all 3 were seeing uses depending on gear levels and fights which was as the dev team intended I believe. While sac becomes easier to play without the stupid pet ai, pet management has been part of warlocks since the beginning and I feel that the dev team were justified in nerfing it somewhat, I will have to wait and see what happens for the next tier. The last tier of talents, AV was almost 100% useless seeing a miniscule amount of dps gain for the loss of either an amazing range aoe or moving while casting. This tier needs to be reworked and no class should be able to cast while moving forever, and honestly casting while moving should not be an option for anyone ever, instants need to play a bigger role in movement so that decisions on instant cast cooldowns become important for movement.

    Demonology

    At the moment this spec is feeling remarkble. I have taught my friends to play this spec to decent level in little less than an hour, yet I feel that the spec has a massive skill cap to it which IMO should be the case with EVERY class out there, easy to play decently but difficult to master. Possible improvements would be the return of Cata HoG and Shadowflame as they add just that little bit more to the rotation as well as the return of immolate, demonology used to be a mix of fire and shadow damage but now the only single target fire damage we deal is from soulfire. HoG virtually served as another DoT during Cata for increased pet damage and this I believe would greatly reduce the strength of GoSac although the only reason for using this atm is due to the insanely strong UVLS trinket. Between ToC and HoG, immolate and corruption would never need to be refreshed manually by the stronger players while still adding an increased difficulty and skill cap to the spec. The spec had amazing movement during meta due to ToC and the 1000 cap of fury made using meta to move more than viable if KJC was not to be taken. Mannoroths fury saw effective use in multiple fights which once again fitted the MoP talent system even if AV was useless.

    Destruction

    The very first thing that comes to mind with this spec is how stupidly easy it is to play. Sure on AoE fights with lots of adds, shadowburning for maximum dps is sometimes difficult especially with low hp adds and 200ms on oceanic servers but the single target rotation requires no skill whatsoever. I agree that the RoF for single target is unecessary and that it should be removed, but there needs to be more spells in the rotation. The glyph that people have been suggesting is quite simply too easy unless rain of fire became channeled once more and acted like a priests Mind Sear, which would be too much homogenization for my liking. The current system requires you to THINK where you drop your aoe rather than mindlessly casting it and not caring about wether the boss will need to be moved in the next few seconds. It does become problematic as it sometimes detargets the boss and this might need fixing.

    What I loved with this spec back in Cata was how difficult it was to master, yet a player ignoring a few of the more difficult parts of the rotation would still do decent dps. There were effectively 4 dots to keep track of: immolate, corruption, doom and Improved Soulfire. Conflag, shadowflame and Chaos Bolt (although stupidly underpowered as the expansion wore on) were cds to keep track of. There was an intensity in the rotation that was demolished in MoP. Going back to Cata destruction is highly unrealistic especially with the new resource system, but the spec as it is is MUCH too easy to play and only yields a higher skillcap during AoE situations. On the other hand, destruction AoE while easy looks fun and works well. A minor problem with it is the prerequisite of casting fire and brimstone before a new spell which for oceanic players becomes a large problem with 200ms latency effectively lowering AoE dps by as much as 20%, the spell should be a toggle like metamorphosis during which your spells consume 1 ember per cast if available or something to that effect while wont hinder higher ms players as much. Movement in cata with Shadowflame, Soulburn: Soulfire, Conflag, Lifetap and Felflame were non issues as opposed to the huge mana cost of fel flame and rain of fire making KJC almost mandatory for most fights save those where MF will yield superior damage on aoe situations due to the ember return of RoF + FnB.

    Affliction

    Affliction currently works great IMO, however I have been reading lots of complaints about the MG filler and I feel that either system has its pluses and minuses. MG and the new shard system for Aff gave it burst capabilities that it never had before especially with the nature of MG causing the dots to tick with their current applied stats rather than the players stats increasing the importance of snapshotting with pandemic + buffs. On the other hand, this greatly reduced the actual damage of our dots to compensate, however even they were nerfed in early ToT due to still higher than accepted damage. This also makes aff feeling too much like a shadowpriest. Instant shadowbolt procs should come back like they used to in Aff-Drain in early cata requiring a mix of MG and SB (although once again too much like spriest mind blast?) It's clear that the community wants a change to aff, and the problem lies in the filler as the rest of the rotation works very well (once again though will this reduce the effect of haunt with snapshotted dots and lower the skillcap?) Changing this spec is going to be difficult as reverting entirely back to cata will not happen, while I don't have a good solution to this problem, no suggestions that I have seen thus far have appealed to me.

    Conclusions

    While the specs all changed drastically from Cata to MoP, most of the changes have been good with minor flaws in them that may not have been anticipated by the dev team. None of the specs I feel need a drastic overhaul other than adding one or two more spells or change some of the available ones. The talent system works well in general, I find myself using all of T1, T3, T5 and swapping between MF and KJC in T6 (needs to be reworked for AV/KJC). Glyphs for everything but Demo are more or less up to the user, demo having Wild imps as mandatory for maximum dps and Everlasting Affliction coming out on top with UVLS. Casting while moving should not be possible for DPS and instead require them to make decisions in advance about what they will be using when moving rather than moving being a minor inconvenience of having to press W A D while also performing a rotation.

    As far what blizzard decides to add next expansion, I feel that they have always done a good job in this department and look forward to seeing what they come up with this time. For everyone who wants a pit lord or some other drastic model changes etc, be aware that we got our overhaul this expansion and aren't likely to receive that much attention this time round.
    Last edited by Malvanis; 2013-05-18 at 03:20 AM.

  5. #85
    Bloodsail Admiral LeyrHao's Avatar
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    As a Destruction player with some casual Demonology play these are the things I'd like to see:
    - A new filler spell for Destruction, if it's a channeled Flamethrower-like ability, even better. Spamming Incinerate, as much as I love that spell, tends to be boring.
    - Cataclysm spell, in some working form. I thought it could be interesting to turn the Destruction warlock into a living flame dealing some "cosmetic" damage each sec for 3 sec, and then exploding, dealing some damage, applying Inmolate and knocking enemies away.
    - Togglable Fire and Brimstone, but, afaik it's coming in 5.3.
    - Chaos Bolt piercing through absorbtion spells. Seriously, it's not easy to cast such a long cast time with such a big ramp up to get absorbed. And with current PvP it isn't that harmful imo, other classes can deal more burst than us in even less time but non-warlock players seem to hate Chaos Bolt somehow.
    - No single target Rain of Fire.
    - Destruction spells should apply a small dot (3 sec tops). Yes, people will tell me we're not fire mages with Ignite, but I really think that if I hit with fire or shadowfire my foes the should burn at least a little bit. That DoT shouldn't roll or stack though, just a plain DoT that only scales with basic stats.
    - Personal wish: trade Chaos Bolt and Soul Fire animations (not the spells). I think Chaos Bolt fits better the demonology theme while Soul Fire is just plain awesome for Destruction. (Yes, orange fire lover here XD)

    As for Demonology:
    - Better ramp up to get full Demonic power. I think switching between caster and metamorphosis should happen more often.
    - No cooldown on Metamorphosis. What's the reason behind it? I can't really understand it.
    - Imp Swarm baseline.
    - A little better selfhealing for this spec.
    - Old Shadowbolt glyph animation. That was amazing and I have no idea why they changed it to what it is today.

    General:
    - Better pet AI.
    - Better Fear. It breaks so easily and it gets countered so often nowadays it no longer fears anyone but the warlock himself XD.
    - Meaningful Guardians. I barely notice Doomguard and Infernal has only a from time to time PvP use.

    Cosmetic stuff:
    - Flyable Dreadsteed. With demonic wings while flying that hide while not.
    - Dark Apotheosis wings for the whole class to fly, maybe?

    I'm not sure if I'm forgetting something, but I think the rest of the class is really fine and I love the MoP revamp we got

  6. #86
    Pit Lord Strafer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaragoth View Post
    No. Just no. Casting while moving has to stay. NO MORE STANDING STILL FOR ANYTHING. ONCE YOU GO KJC YOU NEVER GO BACK.
    I agree. Amazing talent.

    It needs to be kept.

  7. #87
    The Lightbringer Vellerix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafer View Post
    I agree. Amazing talent.

    It needs to be kept.
    I agree too, I love KJC. I understand people have issues with it because it makes things easier, but IMO, sometimes fun is more important than how skilled you have to be, and I seriously love how it feels to cast while moving, especially after an extended playtime on gw2.

  8. #88
    KJC has to go in my opinion. The speed decrease debuff is too little as a trade off. They either should remove it or make the penalty much harsher. Casters has to be stationary when their do they core damage. (The same applies to elemental shamans. Allowing LBs to be cast on the move with no penalty (not even a glyph slot any more) seriously dumps down an already dumped down spec.)

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Varulv View Post
    The swagwalker

  10. #90
    Reading the first posts about the female and male demons made me giggle, since I was the one that made that topic that got them to admit it.

    Ahh, history.

    Anyway, I'd like cunning to be passive, but its a nice talent regardless.
    Senior Officer of the FFXIV:ARR chapter of the Philanthropy Gaming community. Come say hello!

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    KJC has to go in my opinion. The speed decrease debuff is too little as a trade off. They either should remove it or make the penalty much harsher. Casters has to be stationary when their do they core damage. (The same applies to elemental shamans. Allowing LBs to be cast on the move with no penalty (not even a glyph slot any more) seriously dumps down an already dumped down spec.)
    KJC is here to stay, wouldn't wonder if it became baseline, just because it is the best choice out of the talents for a majority of situations. Same goes for the other classes most likely next expansion. Casters are far more fun to play the GW2 style instead of the "stand still and pray you get that cast off" from 2006.

    In the current situation the only way to get the caster movement out of the way is to reduce the melee gap closers and CC by A LOT or give Warlocks a shitton of instants.

    Scorch has been cast-on-move forever and has no penality. While it deals less damage, it is used to gain the big pyros. Mages at this point are the option of movement-hardcast with one skill until you can spam all your instants, while Warlocks have the permanent casting which is good for hunting down people, LoS-casting and generally trying to get out of the way of melee, because if they reach you, you are fucked due to hardcasts.


    Personally though, I'd not mind a return to Cata's system with keeping the current defenses and reducing melee gaps/cc. Cata was fun. PvE was awful, but Destro PvP was pretty good there.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Malvanis View Post
    Warlocks
    Destruction

    A minor problem with it is the prerequisite of casting fire and brimstone before a new spell which for oceanic players becomes a large problem with 200ms latency effectively lowering AoE dps by as much as 20%, the spell should be a toggle like metamorphosis during which your spells consume 1 ember per cast if available or something to that effect while wont hinder higher ms players as much.
    This is being fixed on tuesday...

    And.. I love that most people are complaining about RoF being targeted.. It makes me giggle.

    ON TOPIC:

    I'd like to see more done with Pets. Someone hinted to this earlier, and I completely agree. I think the base models need to be the "supremacy" pets models, with glyphs that revert them back, and the whole Grimore Tier to be redesigned.

    Overall, i love warlocks this xpac. Diversity between specs is amazing and flavorful.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Varulv View Post
    To be fair, they did say they wanted to add genders to our demons, so I'll go ahead and ask: I want a female VW!
    if the female void walker doesnt look/sound like lumpy space princess i will be disappoint
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  14. #94
    The Patient Bryrida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    if the female void walker doesnt look/sound like lumpy space princess i will be disappoint
    Oh my glob! That would be so lumpin' awesome!

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Except that the ability takes away the biggest challenge of playing a caster class, this is absoloutely horrible design.
    Strongly agree with this. We need to remember what is fun for one class may not be fun for everyone else playing the game. It's ridiculously unfair for melee I'd say, in PvP and in PvE. I don't think KJC needs to be removed, but nerfed definitely.

    And while these are just wish lists, I wouldn't expect much tampering with the class at all. They made such huge changes to all 3 specs going into this expansion, it's highly unlikely they'd do it again going into the next one, especially given how strong we've been throughout much of MoP.

    All I want is one more dot for Destro single target and RoF eliminated from single target. And maybe some actions on their thoughts about SB:SS and MG forcing dots to be too weak.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    Strongly agree with this. We need to remember what is fun for one class may not be fun for everyone else playing the game. It's ridiculously unfair for melee I'd say, in PvP and in PvE. I don't think KJC needs to be removed, but nerfed definitely.
    Ridiculously unfair is what Rogues can get away with in PvP right now I think the issue is more that some of the Melee are behind in balance. Rets and Shamans especially.

    And with the lack of good CC on our end, it's actually necessary right now. Went on my Mage yesterday, playing Fire (since it's pretty much ol' Cata Destro to some degree from the style) and it's ridiculous how many defenses you have and how easy it is to escape melee there. So moving while casting is decent for kiting, but most Melee can catch you easily, with the exception of those on the lower end of the balance scale. Especially in Battlegrounds you will easily have 3-4 focus you. Arena is a bit tricky, since Circle is basically designed for that environment, but it's still not impossible. If we really get rid of KJC again, we will need massive buffs in the department of instant casts and haste, not to mention more baseline CC.

    And I bet most melee will go and cry even louder if we are back to being able to chain-CC them and instant-cast in their face until they are dead, like Mages are now.


    I think the RoF issue is that, that it doesn't really feel warlocky (Goes for a lot of Destruction right now. Endless Mana is part of it and the simple rotation). I personally believe that Embers are also a bit meh, since they decay out of fights and take a while to build up for full bursts. Soul Shards were far more fun, especially with Harvest, since you had to think about when to use them during a fight and you had all of them at once. Also was a lot more Warlock-like. RoF should probably be replaced by adding 2 DoTs to our toolkit again. Both Corruption and maybe something else with Shadowflame damage.


    Basically Destruction is currently what Arcane was for most of Wrath. And it needs to get away from that and back to feeling like a proper Warlock Spec again. Affliction also needs to get away from the Shadowpriest feeling. It's the two top issues with the class that need to be adressed next expansion, I think.


    Otherwise what I really, really want back next expansion is A SHITTON OF CLASS QUESTS EACH SINGLE PATCH LIKE KANRETHAD! Things to challenge myself with. That would be really nice. Especially since a Classic/TBC style set for Transmog could be rewarded for it. One less ridiculous than the current Challenge Mode set and with more fitting colors (lol dat helmet). And maybe a weapon or two. Class Legendary Chain!

  17. #97
    God I hope to hell they don't go back to anything like Cataclysm for Destro, that made me switch my main away from warlock for the first time since the game launched. Difficulty is a good thing but that was challenging it was just tedious for tedium's sake.

    Destro is much better on single target fights now that rain of fire is part of the rotation, I just hope their solution to that is to give us essentially a single target spell that acts similarly to RoF so the actual "rotation" stays similar to what it is now. Desto's difficulty in MoP has always been about making the best use of your embers and in making actual choices, which is one of the things they did best about the revamp. Even affliction that still has the tones of timers to watch gamplay is very much about choosing when to refresh dots and use abilities compared to cata where you essentially just cast filler until one of the bars was about to expire and then you cast that spell, the epitome of boring if you ask me.

  18. #98
    I want them continue the trend of having specs that are easy to pick up, but difficult to master.

    Cataclysm was a classic example of failed design. Complicated for the sake of being complex, yet poor dps

    Destruction and Affliction are examples of some really good design. Simple enough to pick up, but with some mechanics for more skillful players. Snapshotting Dots for example.

  19. #99
    The DoT and Ember management right now isn't very complex or interesting though. I found it far more interesting to juggle and time Soul Burn vs the current "Cast when Trinkets proc, you have endless ressources anyways". While I don't want awful things like melee range Shadowflame to return, it is still a fact that currently both Affli and Destruction are as hard to do well as Arcane. As in: anyone with 2 hands and a brain can play Destruction and Affliction and perform very well. Though the quick drop-off time of DoTs on Affli makes it less popular. Also the whole draining and not getting those big numbers.

    Demo however is a in a pretty good spot right now. It combines spending your ressource sensibly with stance-dance and DoTs. Right now Demo really is the spot where complexity and performance align very well. That kind of sweet spot has to be brought to Affli and Destruction. Though I'd really like to see more uses and choices for Demonic Fury and Embers. More along the lines of Affli Soul Burn options with multiple spells being influenced/using it. Also a return of more spell-schools for both Affli and Destro. Fire & Shadow interrupts hit both specs way too hard in PvP.

  20. #100
    I agree with you very much for Demo. Its an absolutely beautiful spec in terms of Meta-weaving for HOG and Corruption. What I don't agree with is that Unerring Vision of Lei Shen is mandatory for this spec to perform well. There has to be a balance though. Not all specs can be too complex otherwise it risks alienating the average player. And losing players means less money for Blizzard. Looking at the average player in WoW, I believe that most cannot play Destruction and Affliction well. I don't see many average players being able to execute things like snapshotting buffs for affliction or using Rain of Fire, Havoc-Shadowburn for Destruction. If you find Affliction and Destruction easy, you're probably waaayy above average.

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