1. #2201
    Quote Originally Posted by Requiem4aDr3am View Post
    If you like housing then you will love Wildstar...its basically every mmo combined but focused around housing/warplots. I'm honestly surprised WOW hasnt done something with housing.
    Might have to take a look, also I think they had some sort of trial on the developer side years and years ago. Nothing much came of it.

  2. #2202
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Lfr was a better design to give players access to content who didn't have it before. Now it's current role is to big because it's almost being used to systematize pugs that happened in wotlk which is a bad thing as theirs no social aspect to it yes I agree. See here's the problem. SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT MEANS FUCKING NOTHING to the majority of casual players. It was a tiny minority of you who ever felt that way about the game and anyone who woke up and had any sense realized this was a video game and didn't need to get their vanity and self esteem and self respect out of it.
    I think one important things between PUGs in Wrath and LFR now is that in Wrath people had alternative to gear their characters through dungeons those that actually joined PUGs wanted to be there. Now there is no alternative if you want to gear your character if you aren't part of an organised raiding group you do LFR there is nothing else this leads to people who don't really enjoy the content having to do it which is why you see people dying to stupid things so they can go AFK or on /follow. Give people an alternative and the LFR experience will improve for all.

  3. #2203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think one important things between PUGs in Wrath and LFR now is that in Wrath people had alternative to gear their characters through dungeons those that actually joined PUGs wanted to be there. Now there is no alternative if you want to gear your character if you aren't part of an organised raiding group you do LFR there is nothing else this leads to people who don't really enjoy the content having to do it which is why you see people dying to stupid things so they can go AFK or on /follow. Give people an alternative and the LFR experience will improve for all.
    This just HAD TO HAD TO HAD TO be changed to sate the vanity of some players who felt so bad about getting valor gear off a vendor. Boo hoo. Casual bob has epics. Wahhhhhh. That poor tiny minority of epic raiders has the worlds smallest violin playing for them somewhere. This is exactly EXACTLY one of the things they sacrificed to SATE hardcores.

    In wrath CASUAL PLAYERS were given a REAL STAKE IN END GAME CONTENT. bring on the easy valor gear. bring on the icc 10 mans. bring on the fucking beer league. Hardcores can be damned. You can refer to my sig with what to do to them.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #2204
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    I think they can do both, with LFD tool.
    Like u can do 10 LFD instances and then they should add like 4 dungeons you cannot LFD but u got to pug yourself and those drop high ilvler gear.
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  5. #2205
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Aside from the incredible arrogance and patronage behind this statement, it is also INCREDIBLY FALSE. They did NOTHING to make the game casual friendly in fact they just made it worse. Your sense of achievement means so little to casual players it's not even funny. Casual players have their own sense of achivements and in most don't even really care to get achievement out of a video game. They just want to kill some time and be rewarded but NOT BE SUCKED IN TO SUCH MASSIVE FUCKING TIME SINK that they never feel like they get anywhere.

    It's obvious why casuals weren't engaged this expansion. Nothing was there to engage and the developers weren't serious about engaging them by giving them a REAL STAKE IN END GAME CONTENT. Not shoving them into lfr or pet battles or scenarios or unrewarding dungeons that grant them NOTHING.
    MOP was a casual expansion. Cuddly pandas and pokemon and free epics in LFR. I'm sorry if you didn't like dailies but they weren't hard. You have tons of scenarios that don't require tanks or healers because people are too lazy to make them and/or they aren't rewarding.

    What I personally hate is that you work for something that doesn't last. Everything becomes redundant next patch etc.

    Everything has become meaningless because there is no community to share it with. No one in LFR cares if you worked hard or learned how to play your class. They don't know you and don't care and just want their welfare epics for no effort. Hardly anyone guild raids simply because it's easier to use LFR.

    That's not casual enough?

    Blizz need to make guild raiding more rewarding again. Make more 5 mans especially to encourage people to play together in consistent groups, and add a higher difficulty setting that isn't a race to the end that's also really rewarding.

    You have your LFR now. Don't destroy the game even more.

  6. #2206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    MOP was a casual expansion. Cuddly pandas and pokemon and free epics in LFR. I'm sorry if you didn't like dailies but they weren't hard. You have tons of scenarios that don't require tanks or healers because people are too lazy to make them and/or they aren't rewarding.

    What I personally hate is that you work for something that doesn't last. Everything becomes redundant next patch etc.

    Everything has become meaningless because there is no community to share it with. No one in LFR cares if you worked hard or learned how to play your class. They don't know you and don't care and just want their welfare epics for no effort. Hardly anyone guild raids simply because it's easier to use LFR.

    That's not casual enough?

    Blizz need to make guild raiding more rewarding again. Make more 5 mans especially to encourage people to play together in consistent groups, and add a higher difficulty setting that isn't a race to the end that's also really rewarding.

    You have your LFR now. Don't destroy the game even more.
    No it wasn't. Pokemon gives you nothing. Dailies give you nothing (unless you commit all the time and treat wow like a job). Scenarios give you nothing. Casual isn't just a matter of difficulty. Casual is a matter of time to reward investment. The game doesn't pay out for players who don't have all that time or frankly can't stomach the fucking girnd. They leave. In masses.

    I agree about guild raiding and I agree about 5 mans. However (and watch this cause this will really blow your mind) you could run 5 mans in consistent groups at higher difficulties AND STILL BE CASUAL. Casual has less to do with being bad and more to do with your tolerance for grind and your "skill" as a player.

    What they gave casuals was fucking MEANINGLESS IN THIS EXPANSION. In fact that's why people are up in arms about lfr not paying out and all this rng horseshit. It's the only casual content (and it's not all that casual if you spend an hour just waiting in que) they can run in a reasonable semblance of time that will pay out in epics BUT ROUTINELY DOESN'T. It's why loot protection is on it's way.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #2207
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it wasn't.
    It was in Chris Metzen's mind. MOP was aimed at "casuals" or people who wouldn't normally play games. Do you think it worked?

    Blizzard made a mistake. I just hope they learn from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Pokemon gives you nothing. Dailies give you nothing (unless you commit all the time and treat wow like a job).
    Lol dude. The dailies took like 2 weeks or something. They were soloable. The problem is there were too many. TBC rep grinds on the other hand, required groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Scenarios give you nothing. Casual isn't just a matter of difficulty. Casual is a matter of time to reward investment. The game doesn't pay out for players who don't have all that time or frankly can't stomach the fucking girnd. They leave. In masses.
    Good. I hope more "casuals" (i.e. bad lazy players) leave so that they stop dragging the game down to their level. They don't care about WoW anyway.

    Also, if you don't have time for games then don't play. Effort should be rewarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I agree about guild raiding and I agree about 5 mans. However (and watch this cause this will really blow your mind) you could run 5 mans in consistent groups at higher difficulties AND STILL BE CASUAL.
    Yes you could. I miss that about TBC. Magister's Terrace wasn't easy but it was rewarding. It was like a mini raid that you could do with your friends and feel like you accomplished something.

    But "casuals" didn't want that. They wanted free loot for no effort. They were too lazy to make friends and too lazy to make tanks and healers and too lazy to find a player with crowd control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Casual has less to do with being bad and more to do with your tolerance for grind and your "skill" as a player.

    What they gave casuals was fucking MEANINGLESS IN THIS EXPANSION. In fact that's why people are up in arms about lfr not paying out and all this rng horseshit. It's the only casual content (and it's not all that casual if you spend an hour just waiting in que) they can run in a reasonable semblance of time that will pay out in epics BUT ROUTINELY DOESN'T. It's why loot protection is on it's way.
    It was a bad expansion for everyone but making things even more "casual" isn't the answer. Keep in mind that "casual" has become synonymous with bad.

  8. #2208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    It was in Chris Metzen's mind. MOP was aimed at "casuals" or people who wouldn't normally play games. Do you think it worked?

    Blizzard made a mistake. I just hope they learn from it.



    Lol dude. The dailies took like 2 weeks or something. They were soloable. The problem is there were too many. TBC rep grinds on the other hand, required groups.



    Good. I hope more "casuals" (i.e. bad lazy players) leave so that they stop dragging the game down to their level. They don't care about WoW anyway.

    Also, if you don't have time for games then don't play. Effort should be rewarded.



    Yes you could. I miss that about TBC. Magister's Terrace wasn't easy but it was rewarding. It was like a mini raid that you could do with your friends and feel like you accomplished something.

    But "casuals" didn't want that. They wanted free loot for no effort. They were too lazy to make friends and too lazy to make tanks and healers and too lazy to find a player with crowd control.



    It was a bad expansion for everyone but making things even more "casual" isn't the answer. Keep in mind that "casual" has become synonymous with bad.
    So if your interest is appealing to your own vanity and trying to get some pathetic sense of achievement out of a video game. You can listen to this guys arguments. From that view point they are entirely reasonable.

    If you interest is making wow more popular and more succesful again (and a fun game for a far larger chunk of it's player base) you should run from him like the black death. I hope hope hope the developers listen to him though. honestly I dearly and sincerly do. When the game tanks and goes f2p because they embrace every one dumb regressive idea these forums have we can at least finally put these notions to rest. Get rid of all of it. Flying mounts. LFR. LFD. Badge gear. Everything. and then make evrythign hard to. Give it to them. Please please please please. Then I can get some sleep when you people shut up and realize how dumb you were for even suggesting this crap in the first place.

    Casuals are telling you the game isn't casual and they are telling Blizzard it isn't. That's why casuals aren't engaged. 2+2=4.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-11 at 03:38 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #2209
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So if your interest is appealing to your own vanity and trying to get some pathetic sense of achievement out of a video game. You can listen to this guys arguments. From that view point they are entirely reasonable.

    If you interest is making wow more popular and more succesful ignore you should run from him like the black death. I hope hope hope the developers listen to you. honestly I dearly and sincerly do. When the game tanks and goes f2p because they embrace every one dumb regressive idea these forums have we can at least finally put these notions to rest.

    Casuals are telling you the game isn't casual and they are telling Blizzard it isn't. That's why casuals aren't engaged. 2+2=4.
    Casual means bad now, like I said. Bad players redefined the word.

    I don't want the game being made for bad lazy players who don't care about the game. Blizzard did that with MOP and we all know the consequences.

  10. #2210
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Everything has become meaningless because there is no community to share it with. No one in LFR cares if you worked hard or learned how to play your class. They don't know you and don't care and just want their welfare epics for no effort. Hardly anyone guild raids simply because it's easier to use LFR.

    That's not casual enough?

    Blizz need to make guild raiding more rewarding again. Make more 5 mans especially to encourage people to play together in consistent groups, and add a higher difficulty setting that isn't a race to the end that's also really rewarding.

    You have your LFR now. Don't destroy the game even more.
    So very true. The game isn't very fun for very long if you haven't got anyone to share it with.


    The problem with daylies where the rewards locked away behind them. Blizzard even admitted that putting valor gear away behind them was stupid.

    I remember back in TBC where people went for nether rays and netherwing dragons, now a days there are so many mounts it is somehow frecking ridicolous. So yea looking back once again I can also see another incentive to do those grinds. To get some other mount than a gryphon or wyvern. Would it work as well today perhaps not.
    Last edited by Dax75; 2013-05-11 at 03:43 PM.

  11. #2211
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    It was in Chris Metzen's mind.
    You made a mistake right there (actually, several). Metzen isn't a game systems developer, it's Blizzard's story director, so he decides nothing about how MoP plays or not.

    Second, even with the Pandaren, MoP was always referred as a war lore expansion, which happens to be true. If people can't see beyond the "cuddly panda" cover, then I'm happy that they are gone, because they can't even grasp what is on the first page after the cover...

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 04:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Casual means bad now, like I said. Bad players redefined the word.
    Nothing redefined the word, casual means what it is, casual.

  12. #2212
    Honestly, at this point, I expect the next expansion to have a lot of the requests I see pop up from time to time.

    Essentially, playing one character grants every alt everything.

    Account wide rep
    BoA tier tokens
    Valor gear will be cheap as hell
    Heroics will take less than 30 minutes, possibly not requiring a tank or healer
    LFR will be nerfed so there are no mechanics (because "they take too long")
    There will be no RNG, you will be guaranteed enough valor per LFR to buy 1-2 pieces of gear
    New characters start at 90

    These are all actual suggestions I've seen on the forums at one point or another. I said earlier, Blizzard uses nuclear weapons to deal with an ant hill. I see them going outright insanely extreme on how they open up the game to be "accessible" next expansion.

    And honestly, if a "casual player" has no sense of accomplishment from a game, I have no clue why they're playing. When I was 10 freaking years old, you have any idea how good it felt to kill Bowser for the first time? Games are entirely about accomplishment and a sense of reward for your efforts. There's an entire psychology behind it. Human beings do things because of a sense of accomplishment, no matter how small or benign it might be. Players over in EQ2 spend hours decorating their housing. They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel some connection to it, some attachment to show off what they've done. They're proud of their unique designs, there's still a sense of accomplishment in acquiring the things to decorate and then presenting them. If there's no sense of accomplishment to progression, then that's the definition of zombie gaming. You have no reason or purpose to why you're doing what you're doing.....you're just doing it.

    And since you mentioned your sig, GL.....wtf can't the hardcore content locusts (I like the term btw) have heroic mode while regular is designed for the majority of the players? Why does my raid need heroic mode nerfed to hell just so we can do it because we're not good enough to clear it as it is?

    But you've literally got players who say LFR is too hard, despite 90% of all mechanics being able to be ignored and 1 wipe results in complete nerd rage and quitting the raid. You've also got complaints that LFR "takes too long" despite the fact you can clear 3 raids in under 3 hours with LFR. Can you imagine a PUG in Wrath clearing all of Naxx, Ulduar, and ToC in 3 hours?
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-05-11 at 03:44 PM.
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  13. #2213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    So very true. The game isn't very fun for very long if you haven't got anyone to share it with.
    And I agree players should have more social options. However solo play is not casual play and group play is not by definition hardcore play. It would be meaningless in th extreme to keep the current difficulties in normal/hardcore raiding as well as the current in game grind and expect players to keep staying in even with social relationship.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 03:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Casual means bad now, like I said. Bad players redefined the word.

    I don't want the game being made for bad lazy players who don't care about the game. Blizzard did that with MOP and we all know the consequences.
    It was not made for those players. It was as always made for hardcores with all the time in the universe to invest. Casual is not synonymous with bad. It may mean players of less skill than say your heroic raider but that isn't the defining charectheristic of a casual player. The want to invest time and the stomach for grind is far more important. Mists is not an expansion designed for those players. It is an expansion designed to sate the desires of players who want "something to do" i.e content locusts who eat it up. And it failed tremendously. They sacrificed the casual experience to sate the desire of players who won't be sated anyway.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #2214
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    And honestly, if a "casual player" has no sense of accomplishment from a game, I have no clue why they're playing. When I was 10 freaking years old, you have any idea how good it felt to kill Bowser for the first time? Games are entirely about accomplishment and a sense of reward for your efforts. There's an entire psychology behind it. Human beings do things because of a sense of accomplishment, no matter how small or benign it might be. Players over in EQ2 spend hours decorating their housing. They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel some connection to it, some attachment to show off what they've done. They're proud of their unique designs, there's still a sense of accomplishment in acquiring the things to decorate and then presenting them. If there's no sense of accomplishment to progression, then that's the definition of zombie gaming. You have no reason or purpose to why you're doing what you're doing.....you're just doing it.
    It's the market that we live on right now. Just see the countless facebook and app games in the market, with great success. The "true" gaming market is on a fall right now, on both PC and consoles, and that hits everywhere.

  15. #2215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    And since you mentioned your sig, GL.....wtf can't the hardcore content locusts (I like the term btw) have heroic mode while regular is designed for the majority of the players? Why does my raid guild need heroic mode nerfed to hell just so we can do it because we're not good enough to clear it as it is?

    We've had it bass ackwards as far as raiding is concerned for far to long. Normal and heroics cater CATER to above average raiders. Everone else is fucked. I think it's time to shift the balance and watch them squirm. The hammer comes down.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #2216
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Heroics will take less than 30 minutes, possibly not requiring a tank or healer
    what heroic dungeons require tanks and healers wtf^^

  17. #2217
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    And honestly, if a "casual player" has no sense of accomplishment from a game, I have no clue why they're playing. When I was 10 freaking years old, you have any idea how good it felt to kill Bowser for the first time? Games are entirely about accomplishment and a sense of reward for your efforts. There's an entire psychology behind it. Human beings do things because of a sense of accomplishment, no matter how small or benign it might be. Players over in EQ2 spend hours decorating their housing. They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel some connection to it, some attachment to show off what they've done. They're proud of their unique designs, there's still a sense of accomplishment in acquiring the things to decorate and then presenting them. If there's no sense of accomplishment to progression, then that's the definition of zombie gaming. You have no reason or purpose to why you're doing what you're doing.....you're just doing it.
    I hate to ask but how do you know what one person feels accomplishment over another? Furthermore why do you think it's good to force your particular world view on the majority of the games population. What need do you have to do this? Games are not entirely about encomplishment. They are about relaxation. Reward is a function of this. But reward like anything else in this game is subjective and subject to a variety of interpretations. Currently casuals don't feel rewarded and don't feel like investing the time because well they haven't had the lure of gear to want them to do it. Nor do they care to. They must not be "true" gamers a distinction as empty and vacuous as they come.

    I'm sorry I find this argument distasteful. It's patronizing in the extreme. But you know best right. If only Blizzard listened to you and made this game in your image. You can prattle on about your quaint values but in the end it doesn't matter. Don't call mists an attempt to appeal to casuals. It's not.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-11 at 03:50 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #2218
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I hate to ask but how do you know what one person feels accomplishment over another? Furthermore why do you think it's good to force your particular world view on the majority of the games population. What need do you have to do this? Games are not entirely about encomplishment. They are about relaxation. Reward is a function of this. But reward like anything else in this game is subjective and subject to a variety of interpretations. Currently casuals don't feel rewarded and don't feel like investing the time because well they haven't had the lure of gear to want them to do it. Nor do they care to. They must not be "true" gamers a distinction as empty and vacuous as they come.

    I'm sorry I find this argument distasteful. It's patronizing in the extreme. But you know best right. If only Blizzard listened to you and made this game in your image.
    How do you know that all casual do not feel any sense of accomplishment at all when achieving something that they have set as their goal?


    And why is a sense of accomplishing something not a sense of reward?

    earlier in the thread you talked about how you loved doing transmog runs, where those old sets and items where your reward, do you not feel a sense of accomplishment, when you finaly get that elusive last item that you have hunted for weeks?
    Last edited by Dax75; 2013-05-11 at 03:54 PM.

  19. #2219
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    We've had it bass ackwards as far as raiding is concerned for far to long. Normal and heroics cater CATER to above average raiders. Everone else is fucked. I think it's time to shift the balance and watch them squirm. The hammer comes down.
    I kinda thought the heroic mode, which is just a few additions to the raid that make it nutso hard, was pretty miniscule and therefore would be for them.

    Normal should be, y'know, normal. For the average raider. And the below average raiders get picked up with the increasing buffs like ICC and Dragon Soul had, or the nerfs towards end of patch.

    Honestly, I had a mage that refused to upgrade out of T9 until we were damn near on Lich King because he wouldn't upgrade until he was 4/4 Tier 10. I had a healer who wasn't good at moving...at all. A tank that was known as "the wall" because he stood there and tanked (in fire). Our DPS isn't phenomenal...MY DPS isn't phenomenal. I've NEVER thought my raid group was above average, they were just a hell of a fun group of players to play with. We cleared ICC before expansion ended (granted, with Varian's buff). We cleared Bastion of Twilight before patch came with only one night a week of raiding. We cleared Dragon Soul without the full Aspect buff.

    I haven't been able to do normal MoP raiding due to players quitting (more because of children, money, and school btw), but from my experience....most of the normal 10 mans don't really need to be nerfed. If MoP's raids are crazy hard, then yeah, nerf them down to what an avg raid group should be able to do.

    Maybe the solution is the next expansion needs more Classic WoW raids. Y'know, don't stand in fire but otherwise tank n' spank mechanics.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  20. #2220
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I hate to ask but how do you know what one person feels accomplishment over another? Furthermore why do you think it's good to force your particular world view on the majority of the games population. What need do you have to do this? Games are not entirely about encomplishment. They are about relaxation. Reward is a function of this. But reward like anything else in this game is subjective and subject to a variety of interpretations. Currently casuals don't feel rewarded and don't feel like investing the time because well they haven't had the lure of gear to want them to do it. I'm sorry I find this argument distasteful. It's patronizing in the extreme. But you know best right. If only Blizzard listened to you and made this game in your image.
    He is right, thought. I'm not saying that I agree with him or not, but the gaming paradigm did changed.

    But is normal, gaming paradigms do change all the time, that is what people have to understand. A game that doesn't follow the society is bound to disappear. It's not because this content or that mechanic, it's about the society profile of each zone. That's why WoW lost it's appeal in Asia, the society there is so volatile and different from the West that is very hard to make a game that appeals both markets at the same time.

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