1. #981
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    So then who am I hero worshipping in wow? LOL kinda circular isn't it?
    I am not hero worshipping anyone and I doubt you are too :P People sure aren't watching Swifty because he is pro but because he is fun to watch (for some) :P
    Come to think of it, I like Oxhorn movies. Is he hardcore player - no? Is he taking casual approach by making movies about Warcraft - no again. There are middle people.

  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    I am not hero worshipping anyone and I doubt you are too :P People sure aren't watching Swifty because he is pro but because he is fun to watch (for some) :P
    Come to think of it, I like Oxhorn movies. Is he hardcore player - no? Is he taking casual approach by making movies about Warcraft - no again. There are middle people.
    Even saying their fun is a bit of a cop out. Sydney Crosby is fun to watch (when he's not injured) and that at least in part is what makes him hero worshipped. If nobody is hero worshipping anybody then the past couple of discussions are kinda moot and I agree. Nobody or next nobody in wow is hero worshipping and they could lose all the hard cores and nobody would care.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #983
    I haven't unsubbed since I started playing in Vanilla, but I think I've reached a point where I've pretty much seen it all. The MoP story doesn't interest me at all. There is nothing new for me to do anymore. Not excited at all about heroic scenarios, did anybody even ask for that? They'll have to come up with something good to keep me interested, else I just might unsub after all this time.

  4. #984
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes it does. Or it should. I mean by that standard I could say vanilla was the most casually friendly expansion ever. You could do it all in your own time. Do you consider say farming furlbog casual friendly? Or even cata. Cata was extremely casual friendly you could do all that in your own time to.

    Being casual friendly MUST MUST MUST (imho) imply that you get reward for your time invested as limited as it may be. If it doesn't well then people start to ask why should I log in for an hour today to climb this fucking mountain that I won't even been done with before the next patch?
    i see our difference in opinion here

    i don't include the notion of reward in my definition of casual playing, just a style of play. Or maybe, more accuratly, playing the game itself, having a good time is it's own reward. i still think it's a good way to think about it. For exemple, if you own an xbox or a ps3, they are many little casual game you play for little or no benefit in game, other than making a high score. So playing without reward, just for the mechanics of the game can be casual play right?

    now, i could definitely agree that good casual play design should reward frequently player to entice him to play more. maybe that's where you going?

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Even saying their fun is a bit of a cop out. Sydney Crosby is fun to watch (when he's not injured) and that at least in part is what makes him hero worshipped. If nobody is hero worshipping anybody then the past couple of discussions are kinda moot and I agree. Nobody or next nobody in wow is hero worshipping and they could lose all the hard cores any nobody would care.
    Blizzard would care. They are good for marketing and promoting game.
    Casual "a worker employed only irregularly" - let's turn this into "a WoW player who plays only irregularly". I think this is definition Blizzard uses. I, who raid since 2007 with few breaks during years cannot be seen as casual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    i see our difference in opinion here

    i don't include the notion of reward in my definition of casual playing, just a style of play. Or maybe, more accuratly, playing the game itself, having a good time is it's own reward. i still think it's a good way to think about it. For exemple, if you own an xbox or a ps3, they are many little casual game you play for little or no benefit in game, other than making a high score. So playing without reward, just for the mechanics of the game can be casual play right?

    now, i could definitely agree that good casual play design should reward frequently player to entice him to play more. maybe that's where you going?
    Yes partially that's it to. I think you have to ask yourself this question. Why should I bother to invest the free hour I have here and there (for example as a casual player) when I'll get nothing out of it? Especially relative to what I got in the past?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-09 at 02:00 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Blizzard would care. They are good for marketing and promoting game.
    Casual "a worker employed only irregularly" - let's turn this into "a WoW player who plays only irregularly". I think this is definition Blizzard uses. I, who raid since 2007 with few breaks during years cannot be seen as casual.
    Your kidding. You think Blood legion or paragon serve as good marketing and promotional tools for the game? You've got to be kidding me with this. Let me go get my mists box and see where they mention any hardcore player anywhere. Look I'm not even sure if that was really all that true in the past either but even if it was it's dead on the table now. Nobody cares what those clowns do. The rein of the hardcores is over. Once Blizzard took the gear out of their hands it was DOA.

    Again even guys who play ireggularly still want to play the best they can and also get some reward out of what they play. The definition of casual is irellevant from this discussion because well we can safely presume that casual players are human and still subject to many of the same wants and desires as hardcores.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-09 at 02:02 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes partially that's it to. I think you have to ask yourself this question. Why should I bother to invest the free hour I have here and there (for example as a casual player) when I'll get nothing out of it? Especially relative to what I got in the past?
    But you are under assumption that everyone play only for gear. What if your goal is only to see the story or do a dungeon or two just because it's fun and not to collect gear?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-09 at 04:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes partially that's it to. I think you have to ask yourself this question. Why should I bother to invest the free hour I have here and there (for example as a casual player) when I'll get nothing out of it? Especially relative to what I got in the past?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-09 at 02:00 AM ----------



    Your kidding. You think Blood legion or paragon serve as good marketing and promotional tools for the game? You've got to be kidding me with this. Let me go get my mists box and see where they mention any hardcore player anywhere. Look I'm not even sure if that was really all that true in the past either but even if it was it's dead on the table now. Nobody cares what those clowns do. The rein of the hardcores is over. Once Blizzard took the gear out of their hands it was DOA.
    Then why are they getting invited and play against Blizzard test team? And then they stream that? Why are they on Blizzcons playing? Lots of them write guides for popular fan sites. You can't just ignore that.

    They want to play best they can but are they willing to put an effort like you and me? Don't think so.
    Last edited by Thalmar; 2013-05-09 at 02:05 AM.

  8. #988
    Look, I see that the subject hits the fan into the wrong direction. Glorious Leader, (no offense) managed to get himself confused into what are casuals and not. For some reason you failed to see the sense in the last 3 pages that you got so deep that even yourself got lost in the subject.
    To make something clear:
    A real casual player, would log in the game and have fun regardless of what WoW has to offer. This is the TBC/WOTLK casual you are generally speaking, which I agree.
    Like me

    But then, you are also jumping in the following:
    The casuals that are playing today (judging by how they are playing in lfr, gemming, enchanting) and the stuff they are doing day by day in wow, clearly shows that they are something different. People that are log in while being bored in life and have nothing to do and hoping they will kill their time in the game for a short period of time. PPL that log irregular do an instance or lfr and nothing more than that then hang out alt-tabbed for 30 min while logged in while watching yt videos. Those also raise the question of subbing/unsubbing at they will which are fucking with blizz numbers.
    Simply put, ppl than can be arsed to fly from the shrine to galleon!

    Don't confuse the real casual with a bored player, there is a major difference.

    What ever we are all going to say about being or not casual, or that the game is it more casual based, that is NOT the issue. The issue simply that while the game still offers lots of useless shit like for example lfr and auto click/join no travel dungeons (I am using those 2 in general as an example yet referring to the whole game), the game still feel EMPTY. And if we are still here, as long as blizzard does not keep the players busy... or give some sort of feel to the game, even those casuals you so seem to protect will stop playing.
    Last edited by Ivvs; 2013-05-09 at 02:06 AM.

  9. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    But you are under assumption that everyone play only for gear. What if your goal is only to see the story or do a dungeon or two just because it's fun and not to collect gear?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-09 at 04:02 AM ----------



    Then why are they getting invited and play against Blizzard test team? And then they stream that? Why are they on Blizzcons playing?
    That's not an assumption that only I have made. It's an assumption that the developers have made. They know it's about the carrot on the stick.

    As for hardcores I stick to what I said. They aren't selling any copies of games. It's a schtick. It's a gag. It fills up some time at Blizzcon. They aren't "good" promotional or marketing tools because nobody cares what they do. Or so few people care about what they do it that it is virtually nobody. I feel this will only diminsh in time. That's why exodus broke up. You figure some of those fans somewhere would step up to the plate and help fill up their guild but guess what not so much.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    one thing i don't understand though, i view MoP the most casual time ever of wow, think about it

    heroic dungeon - faceroll easy, 15 minutes bite size, screeming casual
    LFR - design for casual raiding, include every raid of mop
    daily - time consuming but casual, you do them at your own pace and on your schedule, this is casual
    scenario - strike me as casual
    pet battle - i see them as casual mini games
    the farming activity - seems also quite casual.
    challenge mode dungeon - i would consider as semi casual. they need skill and practice, but i never considered casual player as unskill. They are shortpiece of content that can be done anythime, so casual, but are best done with the same team everytime, so a need for organisation (so not so casual)
    PVP can be done casually too

    so i viewed that extention as the most casual friendly wow has ever been.
    Heroic raid have never been casual content, that's why they introduce LFR. Even normal raid on some level aren't for casual, at least on a weelky basis, even more so with LFR.

    What am i missing?
    The community.

    Say what you will about the convenience of lfd/lfr/realm transfers but I remember the days when I logged on and was instantly invited to run a dungeon with my friends. Anyone know a good tank/healer/dps? And you'd say yeah, my buddy is a tank let me check. He joins the party and you were cool for knowing a good player.

    All that networking, that community building stuff is gone with all this stupid crz/lfd/lfr bridging dead servers crap.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?

  11. #991
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yes partially that's it to. I think you have to ask yourself this question. Why should I bother to invest the free hour I have here and there (for example as a casual player) when I'll get nothing out of it? Especially relative to what I got in the past?
    sometimes, i pick my tablet up, and start playing freaking angry birds or cut the rope for an our for zero benefit. What i wont out of this experience, is puzzle to solve, how to tackle a problem, given the game mechanics.

    my mom, another generation, prefer crosswords. she can spends anywhere between 15 minutes to 2 hours to finish a crossword. That's casual gaming right.

    translate that to wow. You can have casual gaming without reward, just for the fun of the game mechanic. Killing creature, doing quest. or can you really?
    maybe the need for a reward in casual play come from the fact that the gameplay isn't rewarding enough, fun enough by itself?

    could that be the issue?

  12. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivvs View Post
    Look, I see that the subject hits the fan into the wrong direction. Glorious Leader, (no offense) managed to get himself confused into what are casuals and not. For some reason you failed to see the sense in the last 3 pages that you got so deep that even yourself got lost in the subject.
    To make something clear:
    A real casual player, would log in the game and have fun regardless of what WoW has to offer. This is the TBC/WOTLK casual you are generally speaking, which I agree.
    Like me

    But then, you are also jumping in the following:
    The casuals that are playing today (judging by how they are playing in lfr, gemming, enchanting) and the stuff they are doing day by day in wow, clearly shows that they are something different. People that are log in while being bored in life and have nothing to do and hoping they will kill their time in the game for a short period of time. PPL that log irregular do an instance or lfr and nothing more than that then hang out alt-tabbed for 30 min while logged in while watching yt videos. Those also raise the question of subbing/unsubbing at they will which are fucking with blizz numbers.
    Simply put, ppl than can be arsed to fly from the shrine to galleon!

    Don't confuse the real casual with a bored player, there is a major difference.

    What ever we are all going to say about being or not casual, or that the game is it more casual based, that is NOT the issue. The issue simply that while the game still offers lots of useless shit this like for example lfr and auto click/join no travel dungeons (I am using those 2 in general as an example yet referring to the whole game), the game still feel EMPTY. And if we are still here, as long as blizzard does not keep the players busy... or give some sort of feel to the game, even those casuals you so seem to protect will stop playing.
    Casuals want to be rewarded for their time just like anybody else. It has nothing to do with the fun of game mechanics or not. I don't confuse them because guess what casual players are bored players by and large this expansion and they are leaving in droves. They are bored I think because they aren't being rewarded enough and because well playing different classes is such a pain in the ass this expansion.

    You have a very narrow definition of casual. I just happen to have a broader one. If anything I would say your confused.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Your kidding. You think Blood legion or paragon serve as good marketing and promotional tools for the game?
    At least to Blizzard that some guilds have gotten away with mass zone wide same faction level of griefing that would of left lesser guilds with temp bans.

  14. #994
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's not an assumption that only I have made. It's an assumption that the developers have made. They know it's about the carrot on the stick.

    As for hardcores I stick to what I said. They aren't selling any copies of games. It's a schtick. It's a gag. It fills up some time at Blizzcon. They aren't "good" promotional or marketing tools because nobody cares what they do. Or so few people care about what they do it that it is virtually nobody. I feel this will only diminsh in time. That's why exodus broke up. You figure some of those fans somewhere would step up to the plate and help fill up their guild but guess what not so much.
    Take a look at this - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/5403325. More then 250 000 viewers and money raised for charity. That's more viewers then some MMO's have players. It's not irrelevant.
    Last edited by Thalmar; 2013-05-09 at 02:14 AM.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivvs View Post
    Look, I see that the subject hits the fan into the wrong direction. Glorious Leader, (no offense) managed to get himself confused into what are casuals and not. For some reason you failed to see the sense in the last 3 pages that you got so deep that even yourself got lost in the subject.
    To make something clear:
    A real casual player, would log in the game and have fun regardless of what WoW has to offer. This is the TBC/WOTLK casual you are generally speaking, which I agree.
    Like me

    But then, you are also jumping in the following:
    The casuals that are playing today (judging by how they are playing in lfr, gemming, enchanting) and the stuff they are doing day by day in wow, clearly shows that they are something different. People that are log in while being bored in life and have nothing to do and hoping they will kill their time in the game for a short period of time. PPL that log irregular do an instance or lfr and nothing more than that then hang out alt-tabbed for 30 min while logged in while watching yt videos. Those also raise the question of subbing/unsubbing at they will which are fucking with blizz numbers.
    Simply put, ppl than can be arsed to fly from the shrine to galleon!

    Don't confuse the real casual with a bored player, there is a major difference.

    What ever we are all going to say about being or not casual, or that the game is it more casual based, that is NOT the issue. The issue simply that while the game still offers lots of useless shit like for example lfr and auto click/join no travel dungeons (I am using those 2 in general as an example yet referring to the whole game), the game still feel EMPTY. And if we are still here, as long as blizzard does not keep the players busy... or give some sort of feel to the game, even those casuals you so seem to protect will stop playing.
    that's very insightful actually, i haven't consider something that easy.
    you have casual player and casual player, different kind. that's adding dimension to causal playing.

    people can play casually game, that is without making time, scheduling or otherwise planify around their playtime and yet have different expectation from what they get out of it. So simple yet so true.

    You play just for fun, you play because you are goal driven (gear, rep), maybe you play because you are bored, to kill time waiting for a tv shows, or your GF to comeback.

    Multiple dimension of casual play that should be adressed in a casual games as large as wow

  16. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Not in the least surprised. WoW is too old a game to show growth anymore, the best they can hope for is a slower decline. Don't misconstrue this, by the way; WoW is and remains the giant of the industry and the go-to standard. They have improved their game considerably, and continue to do so. But improved content or not, it is still a game that is almost a decade old now. You cannot maintain those amazing numbers with such aged technology and concepts, but that's okay.
    I'm sorry but Mario and many other games still have huge followings same with classic systems, using the age of the game as an excuse for lack of numbers is not 100% correct, I wouldn't even put it at 50%, it has more to do with Blizzard really doesn't give 2 hoots about what their players think I mean if they did the price of server/faction changes would be reduced, low pop realms would be merged, CRZ would be gone instead of them thinking it was a success (which from my understanding is 1 of the leading causes for unsubs), not very alt friendly expansion etc etc. also on my list of reasons for unsubs is Crapaclysm, a lot of people lost faith in Blizzard with that expansion.

  17. #997
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Take a look at this - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/5403325. More then 250 000 viewers and money raised for charity. That's more viewers then some MMO's have players. It's not irrelevant.
    to be frank, i think i have watch 10 times more hours of starcraft 1v1 than i have spend on ladder myself, no kidding.

  18. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Then why are they getting invited and play against Blizzard test team? And then they stream that? Why are they on Blizzcons playing?
    There's also people in cow and murlock costumes on Blizzcoms. Do those sell boxes and more importantly subscriptions as well? With their streams and their "take this wonderful, high quality mousepad"-sponsors these clown guilds prolly make less than guys toiling barren fields in some third-world countries. They sell nothing, they mean nothing and their compensation mirrors that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    sometimes, i pick my tablet up, and start playing freaking angry birds or cut the rope for an our for zero benefit. What i wont out of this experience, is puzzle to solve, how to tackle a problem, given the game mechanics.

    my mom, another generation, prefer crosswords. she can spends anywhere between 15 minutes to 2 hours to finish a crossword. That's casual gaming right.

    translate that to wow. You can have casual gaming without reward, just for the fun of the game mechanic. Killing creature, doing quest. or can you really?
    maybe the need for a reward in casual play come from the fact that the gameplay isn't rewarding enough, fun enough by itself?

    could that be the issue?
    No. You and your mom are unlikely to play x without reward if other people actually get rewarded for playing x and you sure as hell don't pay on a monthly basis and play x without reward if other people get rewarded.

  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    to be frank, i think i have watch 10 times more hours of starcraft 1v1 than i have spend on ladder myself, no kidding.
    Oh, I spent most of my Starcraft time on lan with my friends :P Those were times when we didn't have ADSL.

  20. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    sometimes, i pick my tablet up, and start playing freaking angry birds or cut the rope for an our for zero benefit. What i wont out of this experience, is puzzle to solve, how to tackle a problem, given the game mechanics.

    my mom, another generation, prefer crosswords. she can spends anywhere between 15 minutes to 2 hours to finish a crossword. That's casual gaming right.

    translate that to wow. You can have casual gaming without reward, just for the fun of the game mechanic. Killing creature, doing quest. or can you really?
    maybe the need for a reward in casual play come from the fact that the gameplay isn't rewarding enough, fun enough by itself?

    could that be the issue?
    Well I agree in part about the game play not being rewarding. It could use some refreshment but that only applies to players who have been doing this for years. I mean either way you square it the developers are ultimately at fault here not the "market" or the games age or any shit like that. It isn't exactly attracting new players either.

    To some degree or another wow has always been about the carrot on the stick. In the past we got used to having more carrot and less stick. This expansion has been all stick. Look if reward didn't actually matter then I dont udnerstand why we couldn't have kept the cataclysm model. Of course it matters.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-09 at 02:25 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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