1.3 million sub drop

[ifrah]

Blizzard has made mistakes with WoW? Really? The game is getting close to 10 years of age, and still has millions of active subscribers. Despite of evolving, the core game is still the same, and surprisingly a lot of people get bored with it eventually.

[Glorious Leader]

I don't expect the more hardcore minority to understand it of course, they never have done.

Well it's hard to blame them. they live in a bubble. This quarter should have popped it but apparently it's more resiliant than anything out there. Some kind of super plastic. Made from the millions of tears of the orc peasants who show up when you unsubscribe to the game.

[LilSaihah]

I think all this focus on 'casual's is a bit misplaced. TBC didn't give too much of a stick to casuals. WotLK helped them out and it held steady, so perhaps that works. I'm inclined to say that any problems there are lie elsewhere in the design of the game and not in this false thesis/antithesis in casuals/hardcores.

Either that, or it's just an overall market trend as people migrate out of WoW and into F2P/B2P games, so Blizzard ultimately really can't do anything anyway.

[bufferunderrun]

blizzard has done only 1 thing wrong: re-raise the time required to play the game, totally a wrong move imho.

[Glorious Leader]

I think all this focus on 'casual's is a bit misplaced. TBC didn't give too much of a stick to casuals. WotLK helped them out and it held steady, so perhaps that works. I'm inclined to say that any problems there are lie elsewhere in the design of the game and not in this false thesis/antithesis in casuals/hardcores.

Either that, or it's just an overall market trend as people migrate out of WoW and into F2P/B2P games, so Blizzard ultimately really can't do anything anyway.

Tbc was the expansion that came with the following qol features:

FLYING MOUNTS
BADGE GEAR (LOL CASUALS)
REMOVAL OF ATTUENEMENTS (LOL CASUALS)
10 MAN RAIDS (LOL CASUALS)
HEROIC DUNGEONS WITH GEAR (LOL CASUALS)

Tbc gave more to casuals than almost any other expansion I can think of. ESPECIALLY IN TERMS of significance. Wrath added a bunch to but with the exception of lfd nothing was as significant for casuals as heroic dungeons with gear or badge gear.

[Deleted]

I don't want to burst your bubble but the mass market IS casual. The rest of the mmos were all niche by and large and it was because they weren't mass market appealing i.e casual enough. WoW was an mmo where you could actually get somethign DONE by yourself and not having it take forever to do. It didn't feature a 80 man raid... oh that's another one to 25 and TEN MAN raids in tbc FILTHY FILHTY CASUALS.

All the shit that people moan and whine about ruining this game for the most part happened in TBC. Flying mounts, Arena, BADGE GEAR, removal of attunements, well everything except lfd and lfr I guess but you get the point. Yet somehow TBC is also simultaneously the best expansion but also the least casual friendly when it did nothing but add casual qol features. This community lol.

Remember that WoW became insanely successful before those features you mention were implemented. WoW is not, and has never been, a casual game. It might look casual compared to other MMOs around the time WoW was released, but such a comparison is misleading. It has features attractive to casual players, but its success is due to those things I mentioned previously.

[Deleted]

The point was that if you start to get rid of more qol features you alienate casual players who live on qol in general.

strange to think about that quality of life features can kill a game. But in some ways if a game does to much for you it just doesn't engage you the same way and it gets boring.
It is like playing assasins creed 3, melee combat was i think 2 buttons and waiting to counter. Then you got some glam shot and well it got incredibly incredibly boring. Sure you get a lot of weird weapons but you are basicly fine with using your tomahawk from the beginning till the end of the game...

[Kryos]

Game is still schizophrenic (very easy to level then insanely hard if you want to raid)
Game is still making the cata mistake of having too hard raids

If you do LFR it stays easy. Normal mode is moderate difficult. Hardmode is ... well hard.

Game is too full of ways to avoid dealing with other people

That's something WoW always had. I still don't understand why they still have no public quest mechanic. Rift and Guild Wars 2 show how cool this concept is. No more "mob stealing".

Game still doesn't teach you how to play or how any of the systems work and relies on 3rd party support to function

It got better - you get a basic guide if you start a new character. But I still needs improvement and we need a basic "maxlevel how-to-dps/tank/heal" in-game guide.

Game is still catering to the very best of it's players at everyone elses expense, and those players still aren't happy anyway

Because players want everything at once without efford. They all forget that this is like playing a game with godmode cheats. Fun for 5 Minutes and then boring as hell.

[Glorious Leader]

Remember that WoW became insanely successful before those features you mention were implemented. WoW is not, and has never been, a casual game. It might look casual compared to other MMOs around the time WoW was released, but such a comparison is misleading. It has features attractive to casual players, but its success is due to those things I mentioned previously.

No actually. First of all it was a succcess before that because yet agian relative to all other mmos out there it was FAR MORE CASUAL FRIENDLY. It's success continued and ESCALATED IN BOTH WOTLK AND TBC because of wait for it wait for it.. more casual features. WoW is a casual game. PERIOD. It's success was being more casual than it's competitiors and being more accessible for casuals. PERIOD. The success of things you mentioned previously wouldn't matter one god damn bit if wow was a korean style mmo or even everquest.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 12:51 PM ----------

strange to think about that quality of life features can kill a game. But in some ways if a game does to much for you it just doesn't engage you the same way and it gets boring.
It is like playing assasins creed 3, melee combat was i think 2 buttons and waiting to counter. Then you got some glam shot and well it got incredibly incredibly boring. Sure you get a lot of weird weapons but you are basicly fine with using your tomahawk from the beginning till the end of the game...

Okay so hey Blizzard take it all away. Just do it. I don't really particularly care about wether or not qol features can kill a game because I think it's academic and the damage ( if any) is done already. Try going back see what happens. They should have learned this expansion YOU CAN'T TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM PLAYERS AND EXPECT THEM TO ACCEPT THAT OR BE HAPPY ABOUT IT and stick around.

[Trassk]

Well it's hard to blame them. they live in a bubble. This quarter should have popped it but apparently it's more resiliant than anything out there. Some kind of super plastic. Made from the millions of tears of the orc peasants who show up when you unsubscribe to the game.

I've often thought it funny how the minority of hardcore players whined so much about wrath, despite the game having vast numbers.. but they didn't quit the game either.

Whats odd is how blizzard confessed to catering to the hardcore minority in cata and the majority of casual players were ignored (so much wasted time on updating vanilla content), and yet despite saying this, still follow this trend into mists. Oh they did cater to the casual players.. they just did it wrong.

[Glorious Leader]

I've often thought it funny how the minority of hardcore players whined so much about wrath, despite the game having vast numbers.. but they didn't quit the game either.

Whats odd is how blizzard confessed to catering to the hardcore minority in cata and the majority of casual players were ignored (so much wasted time on updating vanilla content), and yet despite saying this, still follow this trend into mists. Oh they did cater to the casual players.. they just did it wrong.

The diversity of content in mists is good I guess. I have problems with it but alright they didn't want players tunneling on dungeons for whatever reason. The problem is that all of it sucks and none of it is rewarding enough. It's all a time sink. It all just stretches content out far to much longer than it should and it was all in the name of giving players "Something to do" so that they would stick around longer and not just unsub between patches. Guess what? They still unsub between patches and Blizzard made this change and in the process sacrificed a large chunk of the player base who aren't "engaged" in mists. Mist is a colossal fucking failure. Period.

[Deleted]

The point was that if you start to get rid of more qol features you alienate casual players who live on qol in general.

I think it's about the game having its own identity more than the casual/hardcore struggle.
Casual and hardcore content can coexist.
The problem is quality, people want quality. Properly distinguished classes, good scripts, quality dialogues, entertaining mechanics, and an addictive gameplay.

[Glorious Leader]

I think it's about the game having its own identity more than the casual/hardcore struggle.
Casual and hardcore content can coexist.
The problem is quality, people want quality. Properly distinguished classes, good scripts, quality dialogues, entertaining mechanics, and an addictive gameplay.

I agree with some of that. Especially the story/script/immersive aspects. Man nothing to this day compares to going through the black portal for the first time. It was great man you saw hellfire on the other side and it was like star trek or something. Their was a big nebula in the sky and the stair of destiny is soooooooooo huge on the other side. that was WOW. In mists you start on a ship and you jump down. weee...

Having said that I'm not sure you can recapture that. I think they tried to do that in mists and it largely fell flat. Well for me anyway.

[nehunter]

How about this: casual servers, where the maximum raiding you can do is LFR. Why struggle to balance the same game for casuals and hardcores? They will never want the same things.

[khalltusk]

I agree with some of that. Especially the story/script/immersive aspects. Man nothing to this day compares to going through the black portal for the first time. It was great man you saw hellfire on the other side and it was like star trek or something. Their was a big nebula in the sky and the stair of destiny is soooooooooo huge on the other side. that was WOW. In mists you start on a ship and you jump down. weee...

Having said that I'm not sure you can recapture that. I think they tried to do that in mists and it largely fell flat. Well for me anyway.

I think the problem with MOP was because it was not outland of northrend etc. It was a theme some people just do not like.

The intro quest leading to mop (the cutscenes for both factions) was really well done and they way the handled questing was fucking glorious. If TBC had this level of quality to its questing I would have enjoyed that far more.

I think for the next xpac we will get a burning legion as a trump card and if they at least do this level of quality in their presentation of content I think we could be onto a winner. I just hope we get some more dungeons and less gating via dailies they can burn in a fire.

[Glorious Leader]

I think the problem with MOP was because it was not outland of northrend etc. It was a theme some people just do not like.

The intro quest leading to mop (the cutscenes for both factions) was really well done and they way the handled questing was fucking glorious. If TBC had this level of quality to its questing I would have enjoyed that far more.

I think for the next xpac we will get a burning legion as a trump card and if they at least do this level of quality in their presentation of content I think we could be onto a winner. I just hope we get some more dungeons and less gating via dailies they can burn in a fire.

I think questing was horrible this expansion. In fact it's one of the things they did better in cataclysm. Their is ZERO diversity of the questing experience in mists and it's god damn slow and doesn't break the experience up enough. It's all collect this or catch that and if you don't care about pandas or the story it's just a slog with not enough dungeons or other content to break up the experience. Like why no scenarios pre lvl 90?

[Trassk]

The diversity of content in mists is good I guess. I have problems with it but alright they didn't want players tunneling on dungeons for whatever reason. The problem is that all of it sucks and none of it is rewarding enough. It's all a time sink. It all just stretches content out far to much longer than it should and it was all in the name of giving players "Something to do" so that they would stick around longer and not just unsub between patches. Guess what? They still unsub between patches and Blizzard made this change and in the process sacrificed a large chunk of the player base who aren't "engaged" in mists. Mist is a colossal fucking failure. Period.

what I think the problem was, is that they gave players stuff to do... but it wasn't anymore engaging then the kind of stuff we've been doing for the last 6 years, its the same old content just with a new coat of paint, and people don't want to invest time into something that feels the same as it has done every endgame.
Giving you lots of things to do sounds good on paper, but then you realize its the same old thing as always, just with a new color pallet, then nobody will feel invested.

Honestly, when I quested though pandaria, and got to factions like the shado-pan, the klaxxi, the august celestials, all I thought to myself was 'oh joy, another faction to grind towards thats going to become pointless after one major patch', thats how it feels nowadays, the same old method for the same old results.

[Deleted]

No actually. First of all it was a succcess before that because yet agian relative to all other mmos out there it was FAR MORE CASUAL FRIENDLY. It's success continued and ESCALATED IN BOTH WOTLK AND TBC because of wait for it wait for it.. more casual features. WoW is a casual game. PERIOD. It's success was being more casual than it's competitiors and being more accessible for casuals. PERIOD. The success of things you mentioned previously wouldn't matter one god damn bit if wow was a korean style mmo or even everquest.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 12:51 PM ----------



Okay so hey Blizzard take it all away. Just do it. I don't really particularly care about wether or not qol features can kill a game because I think it's academic and the damage ( if any) is done already. Try going back see what happens. They should have learned this expansion YOU CAN'T TAKE SOMETHING AWAY FROM PLAYERS AND EXPECT THEM TO ACCEPT THAT OR BE HAPPY ABOUT IT and stick around.

Why schould they take it all away I didn't say that. I just think they schould remove LFR and well thats it, so that people might have a reason to do endgame in player organised groups.
flying mounts aren't bad.
Raid attunements while annoying, where removed with the sunwell patch, but where also something that people got together for to complete.

I think you overemphasize badge gear i mean 2 badge per heroic, and you needed 25-50 to get something it took a lot of time.
10 man raids where made into a good beer league feature with karazhan and in wrath all raids where available to be beer leagued.

and well now a days the color purple on gear is overrated. That heroic dungeons dropped purple gear oh well, it was a good reason to do them.

Not all quality of life features are bad but if the endgame ends up being a single player game because of them in a mmo well I am not surprised that they can't retain their customers.

[Deleted]

I agree with some of that. Especially the story/script/immersive aspects. Man nothing to this day compares to going through the black portal for the first time. It was great man you saw hellfire on the other side and it was like star trek or something. Their was a big nebula in the sky and the stair of destiny is soooooooooo huge on the other side. that was WOW. In mists you start on a ship and you jump down. weee...

Having said that I'm not sure you can recapture that. I think they tried to do that in mists and it largely fell flat. Well for me anyway.

Absolutely true. Kudos for the memories.
Yes I think they wanted to get a bit of that feeling but sorry, the outlands is a dark, grim, land litterally torn by war.
Much more fitting to the world of WARcraft n my opinion than any of the zones in mop.

[Glorious Leader]

what I think the problem was, is that they gave players stuff to do... but it wasn't anymore engaging then the kind of stuff we've been doing for the last 6 years, its the same old content just with a new coat of paint, and people don't want to invest time into something that feels the same as it has done every endgame.
Giving you lots of things to do sounds good on paper, but then you realize its the same old thing as always, just with a new color pallet, then nobody will feel invested.

Honestly, when I quested though pandaria, and got to factions like the shado-pan, the klaxxi, the august celestials, all I thought to myself was 'oh joy, another faction to grind towards thats going to become pointless after one major patch', thats how it feels nowadays, the same old method for the same old results.

well duh you just quested your face off from 85-90 doing the exact same shit over and over again with less diversity than what they did in cata and less dungeons during the questing experience and then they ask you to do more of it over again? I don't get why anyone at blizzard thought hey man they've been questing from 1--90 lets give them more quests....