1. #1981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    True, true, though the dynamic world events in GW2.....were just scripted looping events with mobs instead of NPCs. I didn't find them that impressive.

    I didn't try Rift at all. I got it for free to download, but haven't played. Is it worth a poke for a look around?
    Yea you might like it. Give it a try. I found it to grindy but I found mists to grindy as well. Lot's of stuff I liked about it though, classes and talents were neat. I lvld a tempest I think he was called. He was like a plate wearing enhance almost. IA was neat to. Basically it just scales you to whatever lvl and you go adventure your face off. They added player housing to with Rift Dimensions. Rift events are neat to. Really pandaria should have had rift events. It makes sense from a lore perspective and it gives players areason to be out in the world that isn't crappy daily quests.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1982
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea you might like it. Give it a try. I found it to grindy but I found mists to grindy as well. Lot's of stuff I liked about it though, classes and talents were neat. I lvld a tempest I think he was called. He was like a plate wearing enhance almost. IA was neat to. Basically it just scales you to whatever lvl and you go adventure your face off. They added player housing to with Rift Dimensions. Rift events are neat to. Really pandaria should have had rift events. It makes sense from a lore perspective and it gives players areason to be out in the world that isn't crappy daily quests.
    I did hear Rift Events were fairly well received. Does sound like it would have fit in MoP with the sha stuff. I might check it out.....after I clear the huge PS3 backlog I've built up. (so ashamed -_-)

  3. #1983
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm not convinced about that whole player created crap. I tried it in rift, their version of it and it was okay. Their Rift dimension. Didn't hold me and to be honest they added alot of stuff like that this expansion. Farms and pet battles and the like.
    Never played rift nor shall I.

    The old UO player housing to this day is miles ahead of most games i've seen. The one in EQ sounded quite similar.

    As for realm types merging first, yeh I would pool RP realms with each other, pve with pve and pvp with pvp. then xrealm them based on that.

  4. #1984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I didn't try Rift at all. I got it for free to download, but haven't played. Is it worth a poke for a look around?
    Everyone should know not to trust what random people say on the internet about games... the only way to be sure is to play a game yourself and make your own mind up.

    I got very good feedback from MMO veterans who played Rift and they told me it was actually very good. Ofc its not perfect but then again nor is Wow...

    Note: ive been playing GW2 for 8 months on a fantastic realm, in a fantastic guild and i think its awesome... maybe thats cos im inlove with WvW which i appreciate is not everyones cup of tea

  5. #1985
    I have to level an alt because I want to skill new professions. That is how dead my server is and its not even close to the worst.

    I would also like to point out that TBC we VERY casual friendly. I was a hardcore raider in Classic and then in TBC I gave that up. The type of people hardcore raiding attracts is just not worth it for me. I did Kara all the time, Grulls twice and ZA most week buts we never cleared it. At the end of TBC doing those raids I was geared enough to walk into Hyjal. Many others where just like me... casual players but good enough to do Hyjal.

    In all of TBC and Wotlk I never felt I was out of things to do. In cata I leveled a second warrior for fun. I can't level another character... 60-80 is mind numbing, followed by 5 levels that are not so bad and then 5 levels do doing the exact same thing I already did.

    WoW has always been casual friendly. If you don't think so then you never played any MMOs before WoW. EQ which was one of the most popular MMOs forced grouping to level on nearly everyone... and it took forever. FFXI was the same way... forced grouping and very slow leveling. If you died in EQ you lost exp and had to go find your body to get your stuff back. FFXI just took a ton of your exp away and made you walk back from whatever city you set your homepoint.

    From vanilla through Cata WoW was very pick you poison kind of a game. MoP changed that. You have to quest a very specific way or you can run the same 4 dungeons over and over and they reward very little exp. Then after level cap you have to do rep grinds to get anythings... a rep grind that is tied to daily quests only.

  6. #1986
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Everyone should know not to trust what random people say on the internet about games... the only way to be sure is to play a game yourself and make your own mind up.

    I got very good feedback from MMO veterans who played Rift and they told me it was actually very good. Ofc its not perfect but then again nor is Wow...

    Note: ive been playing GW2 for 8 months on a fantastic realm, in a fantastic guild and i think its awesome... maybe thats cos im inlove with WvW which i appreciate is not everyones cup of tea
    Well, that's true, but I still like hearing general "yeah it's worth checking out" before hopping into a game. I need more monies so I can game instead of work. Not enough time for all these games! Must game more!!! @_@

  7. #1987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Well, that's true, but I still like hearing general "yeah it's worth checking out" before hopping into a game. I need more monies so I can game instead of work. Not enough time for all these games! Must game more!!! @_@
    No dude it was good. The quality was excellent. The only problem I have jumping into new mmos is just meeting new folks and getting along. That's really the draw of wow is that you already know people and it's comfortable to just get the band back together right.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1988
    Quote Originally Posted by HollerTH View Post
    If you died in EQ you lost exp and had to go find your body to get your stuff back. FFXI just took a ton of your exp away and made you walk back from whatever city you set your homepoint.
    Ah memories. In EQ, if you didn't pay attention, you would get your face ripped off. There's some good memories in EQ, but man it was painful at the time.

    From vanilla through Cata WoW was very pick you poison kind of a game. MoP changed that. You have to quest a very specific way or you can run the same 4 dungeons over and over and they reward very little exp. Then after level cap you have to do rep grinds to get anythings... a rep grind that is tied to daily quests only.
    Your exaggerating a bit here.
    Vanilla you didn't pick your poison. You ran 5 man dungeons (the same handful) or you raided. That was pretty much the only options at end game.
    BC you did heroics, raids, or dailies. That was pretty much the only options. If you wanted rep, you ran 1-2 dungeons ad nauseum until you were exalted. Then you ran 1-2 different dungeons ad nauseum. And don't forget you had run those same dungeons dozens of times to get the rep to ENTER a heroic and then ran them endlessly to get your one piece to drop.

    Wrath? Get to 90 and run heroics with a tabard, which you were limited on how many you could run, to get epics. Then start raiding.

    MoP isn't as insanely different from the old expansions as people try to forcefully make it seem. You may hate dailies, but you really didn't NEED them to get into raiding, particularly LFR. I did dailies because I liked doing them for the most part, but I geared up and got into LFR through heroics before I had more than Klaxxi gear from valor.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 05:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No dude it was good. The quality was excellent. The only problem I have jumping into new mmos is just meeting new folks and getting along. That's really the draw of wow is that you already know people and it's comfortable to just get the band back together right.
    True dat

    A friend of mine (I addicted him to EQ...I'm a pusher) is liking what he sees in FF XIV, so good chance I'll try it. Another will definitely be interested in EQ if it looks good (and it will be F2P too).

    F2P does help you get friends to try other MMOs with you. But I also think back on my early days of WoW and how many friends I made in WoW before more RL friends started. That's what's missing in WoW now....don't seem to often meet other players on the server. Just one time dungeon, no speaking, and never see 'em again.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-05-10 at 05:12 PM.

  9. #1989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Well, that's true, but I still like hearing general "yeah it's worth checking out" before hopping into a game. I need more monies so I can game instead of work. Not enough time for all these games! Must game more!!! @_@
    Basically speaking the MMO paid subscription market is dead and only Wow is managing to keep their players paying cash on a monthly basis. In terms of quality other games beat Wow on many aspects of their game, sure they fall short on some points too, but overall playing a good quality alternative to Wow is the way to go imo.

    Elder Scrolls online must be seriously considering going F2P and copying the likes of GW2 in the way they have made their F2P model work. They make enough money to keep releasing content and the quality is still high. Sure, they are not the bazillionaires like Wow but theyre turning healthy profits which bode well for the future of the game.

  10. #1990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Theirs lots of stuff the could steal. Dynamic world crap from GW2. Instant adventuring from Rift. Hey look maybe it's not my cup of tea. I guess it's a cup of tea for somebody.
    Maybe they could give you some servants, that you can send to do errands for you like mine thorium, it would take them 2 hours and if succesful you get 10 thorium and on a crit you get 20 thorium.
    Yes I know it is like the doff system from star trek online but that mini game is somehow rather fun.

  11. #1991
    Deleted
    An interesting fighting mechanism is what we also need. Nothing fancy, just bring the old tbc heroic system back.
    Grab aggro? Get one shot, Cc mandatory (do you remember chain frost trap?).
    They don't need to be long, just having those two characteristic will make even short runs much much funnier than now, and would also improve the quality in Lfd or even maybe push you to be more social to people and get a friend list going again (don't know about you but I haven't added a single name on my friend list from wotlk).

  12. #1992
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    Well I think the only thing to do in wow for a lot of people is to login once a week clear LFR, probably get frustrated at the two times you wipe and then log out until next week. I can see how they hardly justify paying a subscription fee for that.

    The thing that kept me playing wow for a long time has been being in a guild. WoW no longer requires you to interact with anyone you can just be completely silent and run LFR and LFD which is completely different to when you were forced to interact with people in WotLK.

  13. #1993
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    "If I would've asked people what they wanted, they'd say faster horses" - Henry Ford

    Blizzard has listened too much to what people want, and they've tried to appease everyone. As a result, the game has turned into a messy middle-ground of every user-type's play-style leaving no user-type satisfied. Blizzard are game developers, their users are not, Blizzard knows how to make games, users don't. Blizzard needs to follow their instincts and start building amazing stuff again without listening to crybabies on the forums, just like they used to do when initially developing vanilla and TBC.

  14. #1994
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    How much more do they need to bleed? I think the problem is they don't recognize that the motivations are almost all the same across the board except for the tiny minority of HC players. Progress their characters in a reasonable fashion. Get reward out of the game. pet battles and brawlers club and all that is good I have no problem with it but trying to fit everybody into something is dumb. It doesn't work like that. It's good to offer those things but people want gear and progression of their characters in an environment that doesn't pressure them to perform or die where they can have a blast playing with other players.
    just randomthoughts -

    1) a lot of the casual-catering mentality, in my view, was likely directly from the then-new ATVI mgmt after the merger. Kotick is quite keen on casual, it was a very successful formula for Activision (he singularly turned the company around), but it translates very questionably in the context of the MMO market.

    2) a lot of the decisions coming out of blizzard about game design and tuning really look like the outside view of an internal political struggle between competing philosophies, as well as some game decisions being made by people who understood the parts of the game they were changing very little if at all. (wsg gy change, I am looking at you)

    3) a perfectly justifiable underlying motivation for the company is to try to keep the revenue decline curve as slow as possible as the game ages, in addition to all of the above.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 05:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Wow..this topic touches a nerve..or rather the loss in subs in such a big amount does. Personally this drop took me by surprise..didn't expect that - considering the game kept a more stable player number in times when Blizzard didn't release new content for 8-10 months (BT, ICC and DS)
    yes, this implies post-final panda patch is gonna be a sub massacre.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 05:48 PM ----------



    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 05:50 PM ----------

    [/COLOR]
    Quote Originally Posted by Boatking View Post
    Remember that WoW became insanely successful before those features you mention were implemented. WoW is not, and has never been, a casual game. It might look casual compared to other MMOs around the time WoW was released, but such a comparison is misleading. It has features attractive to casual players, but its success is due to those things I mentioned previously.

    there is a lot of public data that pretty decisively paints a picture of wow having spiked western subs into western wotlk release, spiked another few months into it, and done nothing but bleed off the next 1.7 years until pre-cat. spike.

    I think you could argue that the early wotlk spike owed as much to the success and enjoyment returning players had in tbc as anything, in addition to the 'new expansion' effect.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2013-05-10 at 06:00 PM.
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  15. #1995
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    I must say Im quite surprised, reading in this forum every now and then it didn't seem like there was so many complaints. Complaints about grinding dailies, but that's the way of wow and people like myself got sick of that long ago. But being one of few that grinded argent tournament dailies back in the past, well, was kind of cool, more people had horse from raid than horse from dailies =)

    Question is, how many chinese are there to lose? It would be interesting to some time know exactly how many subs they have in EU, or NA... that would be interesting numbers. Probably a scary number to some :P

  16. #1996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Which is still a vast improvement over vanilla and over other mmos at the time. Man try farming furbolg or argent dawn... Or the skin of the beast or the epic chest piece in Scholomance.
    true. it is relative though, a player who is willing to put that kind of effort in to either of those grinds (classic or tbc) is not neccessarily the player they are trying to attract with the current time-investment requirements on badge gear.

    both the tbc and classic grinds were just that, long-term time investments. I would argue that both were targeted at a similar or identical player profile. a player who was able to get 1 or 2 150 badge items in 2.4 was a player who put a substantial time investment into the game and towards rewards deferred weeks or months.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 06:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tea View Post
    I must say Im quite surprised, reading in this forum every now and then it didn't seem like there was so many complaints. Complaints about grinding dailies, but that's the way of wow and people like myself got sick of that long ago. But being one of few that grinded argent tournament dailies back in the past, well, was kind of cool, more people had horse from raid than horse from dailies =)

    Question is, how many chinese are there to lose? It would be interesting to some time know exactly how many subs they have in EU, or NA... that would be interesting numbers. Probably a scary number to some :P
    about 18 months ago?, after the nasty sub loss quarter, they stated over half their subs were in china.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2013-05-10 at 06:07 PM.
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  17. #1997
    Quote Originally Posted by makkk View Post
    Well I think the only thing to do in wow for a lot of people is to login once a week clear LFR, probably get frustrated at the two times you wipe and then log out until next week. I can see how they hardly justify paying a subscription fee for that.
    What frustrates me is that players go into LFR and if there are 2 wipes they act like the entire thing is a fiasco. Geez, a couple wipes? You died? The entire night is ruined? Those are the players I wouldn't miss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Designed View Post
    "If I would've asked people what they wanted, they'd say faster horses" - Henry Ford

    Blizzard has listened too much to what people want, and they've tried to appease everyone. As a result, the game has turned into a messy middle-ground of every user-type's play-style leaving no user-type satisfied. Blizzard are game developers, their users are not, Blizzard knows how to make games, users don't. Blizzard needs to follow their instincts and start building amazing stuff again without listening to crybabies on the forums, just like they used to do when initially developing vanilla and TBC.
    I think this is a pretty solid statement. 10 million players giving feedback = 10 million cooks in the kitchen.

    Blizzard has to decide what sort of game they want to make and stick with it rather than kind of making 12 different games in the game. It could be the game they settle on isn't what I'd enjoy and that's fine. But pick a direction and stick to your guns.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-05-10 at 06:13 PM.

  18. #1998
    Quote Originally Posted by Boatking View Post
    Remember that WoW became insanely successful before those features you mention were implemented. WoW is not, and has never been, a casual game. It might look casual compared to other MMOs around the time WoW was released, but such a comparison is misleading. It has features attractive to casual players, but its success is due to those things I mentioned previously.
    Sorry but it is a fact that wow was and has always been a casual mmo and you can't discredit it by saying "compared to bla bla bla maybe but its not" yes it is because of what you can compare it to.

    Everything in WOW at release was easy'er then all other mmo's on the market and it has stayed that way in wow.

    Want a mount in everquest spend months if not years to get it and the mount even moves at a slower speed then you.

    Want to get to max level in Everquest spend 7 months to a year if not more.

    You want to quest solo well better do it in wow because around mid-max level you are forced to group with other players.

    Want to max a profession do it in wow because if you don't you risk failing at making items and that will make leveling it 10 times longer.

    Tired of losing xp/levels when you die well play wow you won't lose xp/levels when you die.

    Don't want to be in a 200man raid because you may never get any items well play wow then where the raids are 40/25/10 man and you got a better chance at loot.

    Do I need to go on.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2013-05-10 at 06:20 PM.
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  19. #1999
    Legendary! Deficineiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    Sorry but it is a fact that wow was and has always been a casual mmo and you can't discredit it by saying "compared to bla bla bla maybe but its not" yes it is because of what you can compare it to.

    Everything in WOW at release was easy'er then all other mmo's on the market and it has stayed that way in wow.

    Want a mount in everquest spend months if not years to get it and the mount even moves at a slower speed then you.

    Want to get to max level in Everquest spend 7 months to a year if not more.

    You want to quest solo well better do it in wow because around mid-max level you are forced to group with other players.

    Want to max a profession do it in wow because if you don't you risk failing at making items and that will make leveling it 10 times longer.

    Tired of losing xp/levels when you die well play wow you won't lose xp/levels when you die.

    Don't want to be in a 200man raid because you may never get any items well play wow then where the raids are 40/25/10 man and you got a better chance at loot.

    Do I need to go on.
    casual can be defined in both absolute and relative terms. relatively, wow has always been casual versus existing competitors. absolutely, wow 6 years ago is almost unrecognizable in that context compared to the game today. a game released with tbc-type required effort would never be called casual today, it would in fact be called some very different and probably profane things by the casual proponents.

    I also think that wow released with today's casual tuning/features in 2005 would have been an abysmal failure in terms of subscriptions/revenues compared to what was released,and 1-2 years into release may have just been a failure, period, despite the huge installed base of interest from war1/2/3 and blizzard fans in general. how are you going to get people to invest and commit themselves into a game they hit max level in a few weeks, get compelled to do many zones in exact precise order without permitted deviation or exploration, see every instance in 30 min each or whatever with little thought besides spam aoe keys and kill all the big baddies within a few nights?

    basically the entire growth curve (ex-first 4 months of wotlk) of western wow was in a game that really required notable time investment, deferred gratification, etc. from its playerbase. endgame progression raiding was almost a lifestyle choice for many. everyone acts like satan himself was the genesis of such a terrible thing and that clearly no one could possibly have actually wanted this, but this (classic/tbc) was the game that put 5m+ western subs on the books, and 11m worldwide (through oct 2008, pre-wotlk west release).
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2013-05-10 at 06:35 PM.
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  20. #2000

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