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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Zivy View Post
    They need to make guilds more important again... like back when you didn't really get to raid unless you were in a guild and had committed yourself to that guild..
    from where did you come from with that middle ages idea??
    LFR was invented to prevent such human trafficking and raid gating which was in the hands of the GMs/RLs.

    who are those GM/RL ? normal players that pay same fee as you ?
    what you suggest is to bring in game dirty and corrupted real life politics tipical of human beings.

    get ready to sit on the bench for hours or days while seeing your GM selected his friends to raid with him and eventually it will make them better geared which leave you on the bench even longer or without a guild wondering the forums for hours looking for a guild who will accept you with your out dated gear.

    in other words - slavery, and slave masters thats what you are suggesting.

  2. #622
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dolus View Post
    1. There is probably WoW fatigue.

    2. The game engine has been updated SSAO, etc. On "ultra" it exceeds the graphics of many MMO games.

    3. There will always be "obnoxious" people in any online community.

    4. As far as quest design, etc... it's open to conjecture. I, personally, found reputation gating obnoxious.
    Rep gating is one of the decisions I consider short-sighted and bad. Great idea for a month. Really bad if the people who lack 20 hours a week are *expected* to do 20 hours a week of *dailies*.

    As for the game engine: What's the last other MMO you played? Because I've only seen one MMO since WoW with worse graphics, and that was 6 years ago (Dark and Light -- you've never heard of it, it was awful and it's gone now). In most recent MMOs -- GW2, Rift, ToRtanic, even AoC -- game visuals on "Low" exceed WoW on "Ultra". The only category where WoW wins is color depth, but that's hard to care about when your game models all look like 80s cartoons.
    Last edited by Vulcanasm; 2013-05-09 at 07:53 AM.
    The plural of anecdote is not "data".

  3. #623
    I still say its because Like in cata they took a step backwards and caved into the minorities once more on issues. This time they made the game far grindier than it had been in Cata or Wrath with the tabard removal for reps, the huge dependencies on the dailies which at launch took hours of time (not sure about now). No flying till 90 (which is cool for your main, but when you force everyone to do it on their alts it gets really old really fast). Needing to do hardcore grinding to stay with your best buff food, get your flasks, and pots instead of it being a guild effort its now sole responsibility thing (pros and cons to it) on top of having to make enough gold to pay for repairs, get the things you cant farm if you dont have the means like gems, enchants ect ect. When I stopped raiding I was spending 8 hours a day to keep up with it all just to raid two nights for 3 hours. I have a full time job and a child on the way. I don't have time to do that just to stay current on normal raids, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case for many others as well.

  4. #624
    more dailies, less players...

  5. #625
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    The complete revert on dailies and other grinds such as coins suggest to me they were a large culprit here.

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    What the hell are you talking about? They did that for an extremely important and very obvious reason.

    How many 10m guilds do you see nowadays compared to 25m? Exactly.
    There was no obvious reason. There was only whine. In a 25 man guild you needed 2 tanks, 5-6 healers and rest was dps. This meant that some players got to experience real raiding without being absolutely perfect at their game. There was less pressure on indiviuals and a better sense of community. The 10 man lockout was for maxing out points on the weekend with some random pugs. People who wanted to min-max had that option and people who didn't want didn't feel forced to.

    By the end of Wrath there were around 2 million raiders, more than now. The 10 and 25 merge meant that the number of Tanks and Healers needed to sustain raiders had to dramatically increase which wasn't possible. All of the people fortunate enough to be part of large and forgiving guilds were left out. The addition of LFR didn't solve this, it just added a toxic environment where no one cares about anything except himself. People don't organize themselves and don't know each other anymore.
    Last edited by Cybran; 2013-05-09 at 08:02 AM.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefroz View Post
    I still say its because Like in cata they took a step backwards and caved into the minorities once more on issues. This time they made the game far grindier than it had been in Cata or Wrath with the tabard removal for reps, the huge dependencies on the dailies which at launch took hours of time (not sure about now). No flying till 90 (which is cool for your main, but when you force everyone to do it on their alts it gets really old really fast).
    I disagree with that. No flying mounts and no rep tabards are improvement, not step backwards.

    With flying mounts sense of danger is gone, resulting in most boring content ever and people would quit faster than they are quitting now.

    While reputation via dailies is a horrible solution, tabards is even worse solution because it makes reputations meaningless. There should be way to get reputation other than dailies, but not with tabards. Selecting rep for 1 dungeon run per day works great. It wouldn't be an issue at all if valor gear wasn't tied to reputations, which I think it the biggest mistake with new rep grinds.

    I think main problem why WoW is losing players is death of realm communities and social interaction. When WoW was young, it wasn't about most efficient way to reward, it was about having fun with other players. That's what made it successful game. Now its all gone. Game is focused on single player in 90% of content (LFD/LFR counts as single player content because other players are random strangers you'll never see that could as well be replaced with NPCs) and tiny groups on the rest of content.
    Skinning a bear should aggro every bears in a 40 yard radius. It makes sense, you are actually skinning their best friend.

  8. #628
    Stood in the Fire rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus78 View Post
    East burning out faster with the double reset in 1 week?
    this is only on past tier content, it is not effective on current tier content.


    as to the topic at hand, i quit a couple of months ago for multiple reason, most to do with stuff in game, some to do with being unable to justify spending money on a subscription anymore, to use a metaphor, wow is like HMS titanic, and cataclysm was the iceberg, it is only a matter of time before the game sinks to the point that blizz pull the plug on development time and focus entirely on titan, which i suspect will be announced at blizzcon this year, they simply cannot afford to hold out any longer with it, especially since we know from the leaked release schedule that it is expected to launch as a live game in mid 2015, which in relative terms ain't that far away, (and also from that release schedule we know there is at least 1 more expansion for wow to release shortly after titan and there were no more penned for after that), so personally, i can't see wow lasting much more than another expansion at best for the eastern market, and i dunno how long it will last for EU/US.

  9. #629
    Stood in the Fire Bloodfire's Avatar
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    I don't think that it will go F2P.
    Eve Online stands on 500k and WON'T change it's p2p sub.
    Thing is, not the game has gotten harder. Press X to win starts to affect everything. People just seem to be lazy about their class, by just wanting to press 4-5 buttons and get loot from bosses (I don't mean LFR).
    So, let's just wait for 5.4 and BlizzCon 2013. This will be a crucial moment.

    P.S.: I just look through other forums and see tons of whining from those who stopped playing (e.g. "WoW suxx). I wonder, if you stopped, WTF have you forgotten here?

    P.P.S.: Everybody has it's own Golden Age in WoW. Vanilla, BC, LK...
    Maybe because they grew up is the reason that sub numbers are falling down.
    I just don't see any MMO who is likely to compete with WoW at this level, and won't achieve it's record numbers.
    Except Titan, which hides in shadows atm.
    Last edited by Bloodfire; 2013-05-09 at 08:16 AM.

  10. #630
    High Overlord afhald's Avatar
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    Remove another player (me) from that amount, because i quit WoW just 2 weeks ago.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefroz View Post
    I still say its because Like in cata they took a step backwards and caved into the minorities once more on issues.
    It started way before that, back towards the end of Wrath when they started to cater more and more to a more casual crowd that wanted any and all conveniences, so the player base changed and now the very same casual players can "finish" the game in a couple of weeks and unsubscribe to move on to the flavor of the month MMO and complete that while they wait for new content to be added.

    Blizzard mostly did this to them selfs by discarding one player base for a larger but more fickle one.
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  12. #632
    My wife and I just resubbed last week and we're super happy with it. I don't mind that numbers are dropping because to me the game is STILL amazing, and I've played since Vanilla (right before bgs mind you)

  13. #633
    Just going to throw an opinion in here since I swing between being subscribed (and playing to raid a few nights a week or casually) and unsubscribed but such a drop really isn't all too surprising. End game now really isn't engaging and the sheer amount of stuff (and gating) that a new level 90 player is hit with is, frankly, intimidating. In fact, many of the decisions that Blizzard made with MoP make it difficult for new players or casual players to feel as though they can progress at a reasonable rate while removing much of the feeling of progression despite there being so much to do.

    Coming from someone who raided since TBC (properly for that expansion and WotLK), Throne of Thunder is a simply horrible raid. Despite the encounter design now reflecting a philosophy of "See all the abilities of Black Temple bosses? Yeah. Let's put most of them into one fight. That will be fun." the entire aesthetic is hardly appealing. Raining. Dark. Miserable. Hardly the thing to get people excited about when a new reset hits. The fun of running such instances is also diminished, in my opinion, by the gear being locked through reputation and valor rather than the old badge system. In WotLK, one always felt as though they were progressing towards a new piece of gear when they killed bosses - being granted the new Emblems and Badges and that really felt great. Now that feeling has been lost - killing a boss in ToT gives you valor; the same valor that you get from doing dailies and that just doesn't feel as "fun".

    Daily quests feel far too mandatory and there are simply too many of them. Last night, after a raid, faced with the prospect of dealing with my farm and finding the August Celestial dailies then doing Cloud Serpent (another point of contention that I can't do all the quests on my rerolled main as my old main has fishing and first aid), then doing Klaxxi dailies or perhaps hitting up some LFR I simply logged off. I had the time to play and I felt as though I wanted to, however faced with so much stuff which feels mandatory (despite Blizzard's protests) I simply felt overwhelmed and my desire to play WoW rapidly waned. To some this sort of feeling may be inexplicable, but having too much stuff to do, not enough time to do it, and making so much of it feel needed (Oh, you must do dailies to get valor and lesser charms) really kills my mood to play.

    Removing dungeons as a viable route to get geared for raid content and instead relying upon LFR was also a mistake and coupling this with negating reputations from dungeons (which I sorely miss personally) there isn't much of a point to doing more dungeons than your once per day. Even then, it feels like a chore.

    Much of the new content is interesting. I would love to try challenge modes for example. However, if you weren't in the first batch of players to complete these and thus have one character with 9/9 gold, good luck finding a group. This is hardly Blizzard's fault, but making such things more accessible (note: not easier) would probably help them to retain players.

  14. #634
    How many subs in europe? A million? And in the US? A million too?

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    I disagree with that. No flying mounts and no rep tabards are improvement, not step backwards.

    With flying mounts sense of danger is gone, resulting in most boring content ever and people would quit faster than they are quitting now.

    While reputation via dailies is a horrible solution, tabards is even worse solution because it makes reputations meaningless. There should be way to get reputation other than dailies, but not with tabards. Selecting rep for 1 dungeon run per day works great. It wouldn't be an issue at all if valor gear wasn't tied to reputations, which I think it the biggest mistake with new rep grinds.
    Reputation worked best when a certain dungeon gave reputation with a certain faction. Tabards were "fine" but the TBC model worked better in my opinion. Locking gear into reputation was also a terrible idea, as is keeping 489 pieces on valor points when they really should have been moved to justice with the introduction of the new raid tier - similar to what happened in effectively every past expansion.

  16. #636
    High Overlord afhald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellixen View Post
    My wife and I just resubbed last week and we're super happy with it. I don't mind that numbers are dropping because to me the game is STILL amazing, and I've played since Vanilla (right before bgs mind you)
    It depends player by player, because i can like it but it can be frustrating for another player. I liked the new dailies route with the thunder isle, but after a few weeks for a casual player the game becomes to be boring, when you have at least every LFR BiS gear, you only have 3 choices:

    1) reroll an alt;
    2) quit the game;
    3) begin to do normal/hc raids.

    I went for the second option.

  17. #637
    Anyway I said it in the other thread too. The reason for the steady decline is:

    The death of realm communities. Those communities kept people playing, not dailies or LFR.

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Iseeyou View Post
    Blizzard expects to have less subscribers at the end of the year than they do today.

    Oh yeah they are right. Wildstarr ll drain so much WoW players. Way more than GW2 + NW combined

    I guess WoW ll loose another 2M By the start of 2014, just because of Wildstar.

    New Xbox and Ps4 ll also drain tad lot. So wouldnt be surprise if WoW have 4M Sub in 2014.

    I def lost my faith in blizz as they ruined D3 (Totally) and CATA-MOP was terrible. A new xpac with imba content is requiered for WoW to survive in 2014.

    Going to sell my wow acc before the end of the year to pay a next gen console lol.

    Sell now guys.

    Wow was fun, heil to Wow

    WoW has seen much bigger games than Wildstar (lol) off.

  19. #639
    Most of the decline in subscribers came from China.
    As expected. The anti-WoW weirdos who can't seem to let go will love this news, despite the fact that subscriptions from the East have always been up and down like this.
    There has been less engagement by casual players.
    That's actually surprising.

  20. #640
    It's hilarious to read the posts from those who are being shaudenfraude over this.

    "Game is being dumbed down for casuals!" (you mean, not just catering to raiders)
    "Too much rep grinds and stuff!" (you mean, like the game used to have)

    Tell me how farming/attuning for weeks to kill 1-mechanic bosses in Classic/BC made the game more appealing to more people then?

    That's actually surprising.
    Not really. MoP does require more time invested than Cataclysm, and we all know that 4.3 made people into spoiled brats, so when they stopped being able to cap valor in 2 hours they felt like the game got boring when they were so atrociously expected to do quests for factions in the world instead of putting on a tabard.

    But no matter really. Even though MoP is the best state the game has been in (objectively), there's no way to combat age. Classic/BC was more or less uncontested in the market, and WotLK rode on Arthas from WC3. WotLK by the end of the expansion was boring as shit, though people were still sucked in by the idea of farming 5mans for a few days to get tier 9, then reroll.

    Sooner or later the subs will stabilize and hopefully these lowlifes spending months or even years on WoW forums in order to spread misery will go away. Yes, MMO Champ is essentially a WoW forum, deal with it.
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2013-05-09 at 08:44 AM.

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