What are the BEST raid compositions for ToT(10)?

[Deleted]

Ancestral Guidance is only on 2 minute cooldown, so it is a shorter cooldown than boomkins tranq (which is not really good without HotW)
Stormlash is worse in 10 than 25, but it is still very good.

Boomkin tranq not good? A boomkin can offheal like a healer for 45 sec and even without HotW is still very potent to offheal (Mana is non issue)
In our last iron qon hc kill we lost a healer, and i managed to put down 12mill healing in the last phase, with just non hotw tranq (1,8mill) and HotW rejuv spam.
No shaman can ever do that.

[Deleted]

Okay, saying boomkin healing is not good was an overstatment from me, it is good. I just feel like shaman is getting way to overlooked. Ideally I would like with both shamans and druid.

Shamans shine on those fights where you get amplified damage, like remember Elegon HC, an elemental shaman easily topped the raid off in P4.
(Which is what I said in my first post, to keep the shaman and instead have the hunter+priest roll boomkin+mage.)

[Szemere]

It's been said that having 2 warlocks is actually a good move rather than a bad one, for some HC encounters. (That and the fact that warlocks simply are OP in PvE in terms of personal utility and raid utility, IMO)

[Viromand]

Tanks:
Protpala
BrM Monk or Druid (both good, doenst matter which one you take. Both do good OT dps, have strong heals. Druid gives armor debuff.)

Heal:
Hpala
Disc
Monk
(could change monk with druid or shaman but monk is alot better on almost every fight).

DPS. (range)
Warlock mandatory
Mage mandatory

Hunter
Sp (could take a boomkin, but heals alot more espically on megeara and last phase iron qon.)
ele/boomkin (boomkin better, boomkin/SP comp really strong in raid atm.)

melees.
Warrior
rogue

maybe a meleshaman

IMO DK not worht it, Warrior does more dmg considering banner. has better Raidcooldown than a DK. Rogues doing more dmg, Shaman more raidhealing/ utility.

[Deleted]

Your dps setup is quite weak for a 'top roster'

Ele shaman go mage, Spriest go boomkin, and guardian go monk. That will severely increase your potential. Besides that a very nice roster.

Yes, i wont go Mage as i said

Dont think the setup is weak, since we never have problem with Enrage or DPS checks.

Shaman indeed lack a bit sustain single target DPS, that i agree :P

Ele shaman is insanely strong atm, better to have the hunter go mage, and nothing wrong with guardian druid, I would actually keep their spriest(or maybe the hunter) and have their guardian gear up boomkin off spec for those 1 tank fights.

He has Feral offspec, ehm... single Feral in 10man ever


You have to also count that ppl doesnt want to play some specs or classes.

[Dracodraco]

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000

For maximizing gear - nothing goes to waste. Ele shaman can be changed with resto shaman if resto druid is changed to a boomkin (essentially, you can pick any of the two to be your "main dps" or "offspec healer without sacrifising anything, be it raid CD's or buffs).
Likewise, this brings you a TON of cleave dmg, easy time on durumu (ele+lock), decent dot damage, TONS of raid cooldowns (only blood DK, Hunter and Lock not bringing one, and blood dk CAN get AMZ for a minor raid CD vs magic dmg).
Only thing that is slightly lacking is dots when 3 healing. When 2 healing, you have both a boomkin and a lock, bringing plenty (or alternatively, no ele shaman and plenty of dot DMG but less cleave).

And just to recap:

Cloth with hit / no spirit: Lock.
Cloth with spirit: Disc priest.
Leather with int: Resto/boomkin druid.
Leather with agi: Rogue.
Mail with int: Resto/Ele shammy.
Mail with agi: Hunter.
Plate tank: DK.
Plate haste: Pally tank.
Plate DPS gear: Fury warrior.

Vanq: Dk, rogue, druid.
Conq: 2x pally, priest, lock.
Prot: Warr, shammy, hunter.

[TheDarkExileCreel]

Prot Pally
Brewmaster OT/WW OS

Holy pally
Resto druid
Disc (w/ shadow OS)

DK
Ele Shammie
Hunter
Lock
Boomie

That comp gives you a good spread of tier tokens, strong AoE, ranged heavy, strong hybrid off heals, double symbiosis and covers all your buffs

[Deleted]

http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=...00000000000000

For maximizing gear - nothing goes to waste. Ele shaman can be changed with resto shaman if resto druid is changed to a boomkin (essentially, you can pick any of the two to be your "main dps" or "offspec healer without sacrifising anything, be it raid CD's or buffs).
Likewise, this brings you a TON of cleave dmg, easy time on durumu (ele+lock), decent dot damage, TONS of raid cooldowns (only blood DK, Hunter and Lock not bringing one, and blood dk CAN get AMZ for a minor raid CD vs magic dmg).
Only thing that is slightly lacking is dots when 3 healing. When 2 healing, you have both a boomkin and a lock, bringing plenty (or alternatively, no ele shaman and plenty of dot DMG but less cleave).

Though having a paladin+dk tank combo is kinda /puke, much rather have the druid or warrior go tank and change the dk to a mage or something.

[Dracodraco]

Though having a paladin+dk tank combo is kinda /puke, much rather have the druid or warrior go tank and change the dk to a mage or something.

Why exactly? Druids are by far the worst tank for this entire tier. Nothing they can do can't be achieved better by a blood DK. It'd also mess up the loot distribution something fierce - the paladin tank wants haste/mastery dps gear, the fury warrior wants crit gear, and the blood DK wants real tank gear. You'd also suddenly have 3 clothies. It just doesn't make any sense. Blood dk's are just fine this tier, you've probably had issues with bad ones if you don't think so.

[Thedave]

Prot Pally
Brewmaster OT/WW OS

Holy pally
Resto druid
Disc (w/ shadow OS)

DK
Ele Shammie
Hunter
Lock
Boomie

That comp gives you a good spread of tier tokens, strong AoE, ranged heavy, strong hybrid off heals, double symbiosis and covers all your buffs

There is no fight in this game where a Resto Druid will beat a Mistweaver. Unfortunately :/

--

To the overall thread:

Some people are kind of hinting at it without saying it, but it's important to flat out say it: in this tier, dps in 10 mans is absolutely critical. If on a fight you can get away with 0 HoPs, you should probably go disc/MW for your 2 healers. Assuming the MW is good, he'll know when and where he can get in fistweaving and do an appreciable amount of dps, which will smooth out your learning curve.

[Nairobi]

ProtPal
BrM (WW OS)

Disc
MW
*Hpal, Disc, RSham

Lock
Lock
Rog
Elesham
DK
Ret
Hunter
Spriest/Mage

That's our roster. Obviously not all at once. Our SPriest (and backup Disc) is rerolling Mage to get rid of our Conq overload, but I echo that 2x lock is never a bad thing. Also, 2x Disc is really pretty freakin sweet on a lot of fights. We had the shaman healing on Megaera HC for example, but couldn't make it work. Had the priest go disc (and shaman now can LOLCLEAVE the adds) and it was cake. 2x Disc on our first IQ HC and Twins HC kills too. It's basically an extra DPS and a shitload of Spirit Shells/barriers. Not to mention that Elesham is really underrated, esp on anything with more than 1 target. Ours just solo's the walls on Durumu HC, basically making it a joke.

The only issues we (were) running into was covering all buffs, namely crit and/or AP, as we were sitting the DK and/or Hunter pretty often

[Deleted]

Why exactly? Druids are by far the worst tank for this entire tier. Nothing they can do can't be achieved better by a blood DK. It'd also mess up the loot distribution something fierce - the paladin tank wants haste/mastery dps gear, the fury warrior wants crit gear, and the blood DK wants real tank gear. You'd also suddenly have 3 clothies. It just doesn't make any sense. Blood dk's are just fine this tier, you've probably had issues with bad ones if you don't think so.

Druids t&c alone is more powerful than anything a blood dk brings to the table, they are also tankier, provide nice benefits with symbiosis and stampeding roar aswell as providing some minor healing capabilities (atleast stronger than a DKs amz).

I would rather mess up the loot distribution than being forced to drag along a blood DK.

The second part is that both paladins and blood dk work kinda similar in that they are balanced around taking high damage and than healing/absorbing themselves. Having two tanks that scale so well with vengeance is kinda counterproductive (yes, all tanks scale with vengeance but dks and paladins scale more than the other tanks), which is why I rather would have a good main tank + off tank combination rather than having 2 main tanks that both revolves around main tanking. When the paladin is tanking the druid still provides awesome support with t&c while a dk would do nothing, and having a paladin off tanking makes 0 sense as their dps at low vengeance levels is at the same level as warriors. Blood dk + Paladin/Monk simply synergizes very bad in comparison to other tanking combinations.

And yes, I would rather have 3 clothies, since clothies is just so far superior to other classes right now. I would have no problem have 2 locks + mage in the same raid group, we got coins to off-set that.

[Thedave]

(yes, all tanks scale with vengeance but dks and paladins scale more than the other tanks)

My BrM offspec that destroys the other tanks' dps disagrees.

[Deleted]

My BrM offspec that destroys the other tanks' dps disagrees.

Talking in pure terms of survivability how much paladins and dks tanking style revovle about their self healing and absorbs.

Though on that side note, to say that monks destroy paladins on dps is a bit of an overstatement. I haven't played for a few weeks, so I have not got my legendary meta yet so can't really yet compare myself until I get the meta gem, though before I went on a break, I was on a regular basis ranking higher than the highest ranked brm monk. Paladins and BRMs are very similar on damage.

Monks are beating paladins on the lower end of the ranks, but if you are looking at the top 10, paladins completely smash monks.
Just look at
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00011111000000
for refference.
Average dps of all rank 10 logs on all fights.

[Viromand]

Druids t&c alone is more powerful than anything a blood dk brings to the table, they are also tankier, provide nice benefits with symbiosis and stampeding roar aswell as providing some minor healing capabilities (atleast stronger than a DKs amz).

I would rather mess up the loot distribution than being forced to drag along a blood DK.

The second part is that both paladins and blood dk work kinda similar in that they are balanced around taking high damage and than healing/absorbing themselves. Having two tanks that scale so well with vengeance is kinda counterproductive (yes, all tanks scale with vengeance but dks and paladins scale more than the other tanks), which is why I rather would have a good main tank + off tank combination rather than having 2 main tanks that both revolves around main tanking. When the paladin is tanking the druid still provides awesome support with t&c while a dk would do nothing, and having a paladin off tanking makes 0 sense as their dps at low vengeance levels is at the same level as warriors. Blood dk + Paladin/Monk simply synergizes very bad in comparison to other tanking combinations.

And yes, I would rather have 3 clothies, since clothies is just so far superior to other classes right now. I would have no problem have 2 locks + mage in the same raid group, we got coins to off-set that.

Isnt bloodDK the worst scaling tank class, only their dmg scales with vengeance and dks do alot less while OT than a druid or a monk. In 10m druids are so much stronger than warriors or DKs. Dks scale with what exactly. FR, T&C, NV even bearhug scale with vengeance, pala scale shield, selfheal, WoG, BH, 90talents. Monk healtalents, absorbs. Warriors only sbar far as i know. DK, Deathstrike scales with the incoming dmg, not with vengeance. AMZ doesnt scale with vengeance anymore(not 100% sure tho). DKs are the worst vengeance scaling class in the game, and they do almost 0 dmg without it so very bad as a OT when tanking with a pala. DK is the tankclass thats needs a buff, the only think which is really strong when a dk taunts, he takes practictly 0 dmg if his shield is stacked, for like 10-15 seconds.

And best raidcomps are not about gear. yeah sure you can go with that but still who would. sure taking 3pala 2 priests and 2 wl is not optimal, would you drop the palatank for a DK cause you cant take a druid or a monk cause you ahve a rogue in you raid?
Optimal raidcomps are about utility and dps in 10m.

Utilityclasses like pala or wl really shine in 10m. SPs moonkins and shaman do alot of raidhealing. Moonkins and SPs alot more than eleshaman. Warrior banners do so much dps. Tank Druids atleast 100k without vengeance. Monks and Paladin do so much dmg with vengeance monks do alot without it too. having a Pala/druid or Monk/druid tankcomp is really strong in 10m. Rogues and mages dont bring much ultility but do alot of dmg. Hunter are so strong cause they can bring every buff to the raid.

[Deleted]

Isnt bloodDK the worst scaling tank class, only their dmg scales with vengeance and dks do alot less while OT than a druid or a monk.

To be honest, I do not know, all I know about DKs scaling is what I heard DKs tell me. Afaik their absorbs and heals scale well with vengeance, but that could be wrong because I have not played a dk myself, only heard DKs say that. So if anyone here plays a DK and would like to correct that please do.

So maybe you are correct, which would make DKs, the worst main tanks, and the worst off tanks, since when off tanking they provide nothing to the other tank.

Druids and Warriors are god mode off tanks just due to how much they help the other tank.

[Thedave]

Talking in pure terms of survivability how much paladins and dks tanking style revovle about their self healing and absorbs.

Though on that side note, to say that monks destroy paladins on dps is a bit of an overstatement. I haven't played for a few weeks, so I have not got my legendary meta yet so can't really yet compare myself until I get the meta gem, though before I went on a break, I was on a regular basis ranking higher than the highest ranked brm monk. Paladins and BRMs are very similar on damage.

Monks are beating paladins on the lower end of the ranks, but if you are looking at the top 10, paladins completely smash monks.
Just look at
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00011111000000
for refference.
Average dps of all rank 10 logs on all fights.

A 20-30% difference on 10 man does warrant the finding that it's a big difference. Your raidbots link is actually really skewed: Heroic Twins, Heroic Lei Shen, and Ra Den logs aren't included in raidbots because of WoL bugs (and dearth of logs), and those are three fights where a BrM can get to as much as 40-50% more than a paladin, if not higher depending on vengeance juggling.

Additionally, strats this tier affect those top 10% numbers. For example, on Horridon, you're going to have a paladin tank full time on Horridon if he's available, so the top 10% of paladins will be guaranteed to be on Horridon full time, whereas that's much less likely true for the top BrMs. Hitting individual heroic fights, you'll find that a BrM handily beats a paladin on Qon, Durumu, Megaera, Council. The only two fights where a paladin seems to win are Animus and Primordius.

[Viromand]

A 20-30% difference on 10 man does warrant the finding that it's a big difference. Your raidbots link is actually really skewed: Heroic Twins, Heroic Lei Shen, and Ra Den logs aren't included in raidbots because of WoL bugs (and dearth of logs), and those are three fights where a BrM can get to as much as 40-50% more than a paladin, if not higher depending on vengeance juggling.

Additionally, strats this tier affect those top 10% numbers. For example, on Horridon, you're going to have a paladin tank full time on Horridon if he's available, so the top 10% of paladins will be guaranteed to be on Horridon full time, whereas that's much less likely true for the top BrMs. Hitting individual heroic fights, you'll find that a BrM handily beats a paladin on Qon, Durumu, Megaera, Council. The only two fights where a paladin seems to win are Animus and Primordius.

Does it matter? Monks palas and druids, are best tankdpsclasses, they are close. And still you cant compare the top logs. Doing 150k with good uptimes ist good, doing 200k on the same boss but letting sacredshield drop, not using AM perfectly is bad. To really compare that you would have to look at logs where players have good uptimes, same gear, and same strat, to get a result where you can actually say.Tank A does more than Tank B.

[Deleted]

Well, that is why it is my opinion that paladin=monk dps, since they beat eachother on different fights. I will refrain from expressing myself about the later heroics until I have killed them myself, so that will be a challenge for the future

[Dracodraco]

Druids t&c alone is more powerful than anything a blood dk brings to the table, they are also tankier, provide nice benefits with symbiosis and stampeding roar aswell as providing some minor healing capabilities (atleast stronger than a DKs amz).

Uhm... Druid's t&c is a worse version of a blood DK's Blood Shield. Both are an absorbtion mechanic, although T&C only affects auto swings (Blood Shield is all physical damage). T&C is a constant small mitigation, but "unreliable" (runes are on a timer and you can build BS while offtanking, thus making it reliable and a possible substitute for a tank cooldown - think Madness of Deathwing impales, or even Decap on Lei Shen for current tier), while T&C is a random chance - random is NEVER good for tanks.
I'd also disagree that they are "tankier" - if they are, then it seems odd that blizzard feels the need to buff their survivability with a armor increase, right? Not to mention that DK's have a far bigger amount of cooldowns aviable to their disposal than a Druid.
As for offhealing, I'd love to see a bear druid actually do that. It's so pitifully weak that I've never seen it happen, outside of HOTW-Tranq. And don't forget that while druid provides one kind of benefit, DK provides another - things like Army to tank adds and avoid instagibs (Lei Shi comes to mind) is wildly underrated. Not to mention that for some fights, AMZ is extremely potent due to the way it communicates with the server (essentially blocking all magic damage for one hit).

I would rather mess up the loot distribution than being forced to drag along a blood DK.

This is why 10 mans keep complaining about wasting tons of loot. Having an extremely strong setup with tons of CD's and no loot going to waste is fairly simple, but no one seems to go for it.

The second part is that both paladins and blood dk work kinda similar in that they are balanced around taking high damage and than healing/absorbing themselves. Having two tanks that scale so well with vengeance is kinda counterproductive (yes, all tanks scale with vengeance but dks and paladins scale more than the other tanks), which is why I rather would have a good main tank + off tank combination rather than having 2 main tanks that both revolves around main tanking. When the paladin is tanking the druid still provides awesome support with t&c while a dk would do nothing, and having a paladin off tanking makes 0 sense as their dps at low vengeance levels is at the same level as warriors. Blood dk + Paladin/Monk simply synergizes very bad in comparison to other tanking combinations.

Untrue. As previously explained, Blood DK's absorbtion mechanic is fairly similiar to T&C - thus the same argument could be used about a druid (or any tank really, concidering there's a point where warrior tanks actually become INVINCIBLE due to vengeance scaling with shield barrier. Yes, there's a point where they take so much dmg that their vengeance becomes so high, that they are immortal as long as they keep pressing shield barrier. Shek'zeer heroic was fun).
Adding to that, a DK is actually reliant on INCOMMING DAMAGE - not attack power - to scale their survivability. This makes them the tank that's the LEAST reliant on vengeance for survivability, and thus, the best choise for an "offtank" (see stacking up blood shield while OT'ing as previously mentioned).

Add on top of this that DK's are great at AOE threat, which is something paladins are slightly worse at, and they make for a great team.

And yes, I would rather have 3 clothies, since clothies is just so far superior to other classes right now. I would have no problem have 2 locks + mage in the same raid group, we got coins to off-set that.

Up to you, I guess. I'd rather have a raid that's geared to the teeth and thus surpasses your FOTM DPS with far more utility. My setup would still have coins - it just means we'd get even further ahead in gear, even quicker, and retain our superior utility through raid CD's.