My idea on how to improve warrior and deathknight tanking

[Deleted]

I hope come 6.0 they fix the "current model of the game then", either have it that all the tank classes can pick up dps/tank gear or make tanking stats become viable again. As people have mentioned here and in other posts the current model as you mention it only seems applicable to prot pallys and brm monks. Death knights, guardian druids and prot warriors are going for their designed pieces ( just double checked armory for guilds method and dream paragon to make sure this statement is viable).

Applies to druids aswell.

And tanking stats was never viable. Just that other stats where even less viable, tanking stat was just the least smelly shit of all the shit.

[JudgePayne]

Applies to druids aswell.

And tanking stats was never viable. Just that other stats where even less viable, tanking stat was just the least smelly shit of all the shit.

Well as long as blizzard make it so all the tanking classes can use the new model and not be trailing behind, i would be fine with it.

With respect to the old stats, I wonder about a rework to how they operate.

Parry : When a prot warrior successfully parries an attack he gains X rage and increases his next chance to crit by X amount.

( So parry could generate a resource, provide defense and help with dps/dmg by effecting crit)

Dodge : Upon next successful dodge you gain X amount of rage and for the next X seconds your attack speed is increased by X%.

( Once again dodge generates a resource, is a defensive stat and can help dps/dmg)

What would you think if warrior passive unwavering sentinel included this feature.

[Deleted]

Tank: controls boss & adds while maintaining their life and helping the raid with raid wide cooldowns.
Healers : Heal the raid and help in all aspects.
Damage dealers: Dps the bosses and adds with respect to the tactics and use their cooldowns when possible to aid the raid.

Nothing has changed with that style of raiding, only aspects added. First off, healers should be added that they should help in dps whenever possible since healer dps matters.

Also, if we are talking about tanks and healing. In Wrath, I was actually stopping my tanking to cast heals on people, I was regularly dispelling people, HoF, HoS cast on cooldown almost. We do not have that anymore. If anything, tanks have taken a step down from being healers. I was very sad when they removed most of tank dispelling and the fact that HoS and HoF has been pretty much irrelevant in the last 3 years, I enjoyed helping the raid out. Same in Cata, in Cata, I was always keeping an eye on the raid frame droping WoG on anyone that went low, I was pretty much acting a healer then. Now in MoP, I would never dream about casting a heal on someone, yet in Wrath and Cata, this was the reality. So I am actually very confused when people say tanks are healers now, since tanking if anything moved away from being healers. Just take the first tier of Cata as example, on every single boss fight I had a set period of time when I knew I had to cast WoG on someone in the raid, be it V&T casting it on people who got the blackout or meteor, chimaeron whenever someone was below 10k hp, god, I do not know how many time I saved lives on chimaeron with last second heals. I was basically acting as an additional "oh-shit"-healer. Now I do not already, so just there they removed a vital part of tanking, what for me differented good and bad tanks.

When I was looking at paladins, the way to tell if someone was a good retri or prot, was not on their damage or survivability, since that was so easy, it was their usage of heals and raid support. Anyone could dps/tank, it took a good player to use your heals and support spells properly. This is one of the reason that I have not played retribution since they changed paladins to work with holy power in Wrath(cata patch). So many people was all like "omg paladin rotation was so easy before" bla bla, yes, it was easy (still, not easier than a lot of other classes), however, for me, what being a retribution was all about was being that hybrid, whenever you had the instant FoL procs, you used it on someone, you helped the raid out with all your CDs, dispell etc. When they removed that, for me, it killed retribution paladin, since it was no longer an enjoyable dps class since its job was basically what you said, dps the boss, which any other class did better than them.
I did not care that they made the rotation harder (and clunkier, the new rotation felt bad as hell), they still made the class easier, since dps rotation was not everything.

In the same area now, tanking used to be where I think retribution paladin was after the change, tanking was dumbed down, dead, not enough things to different a good from a bad tank, the feeling that any random tank could tank 90% as good as you for 10% the effort is not a good feeling. It is like you are a top parsing dps, pulling say 200k dps, however a random dps that totally mess ups his rotation, gems wrong, does everything wrong deals 190k dps, how would that make you feel? All the effort you put in your class to play it at its limit grants you almost nothing? That is not fun. This is the reason why we do not see so many tank, tanking was dulled, and dumbed down. Anyone random guy could just stand there taking hits controlling the boss and adds. Not like you actually had to maintain your own life.

How tanking works now, is for me how retribution worked before in wrath. You have your basic stuff to do, i.e. position boss and adds and keep threat on them, which is like the retri rotation was, easy, any zombie can do it. However, tanking has evolved, you still have to position the boss like you did before, and help the raid with raid cooldowns. However, now you actually have to actively focus on your own survivability, use your mitigation properly (more so paladins and monks), make active gearing choices, not just brainlessly stack stats you do not even want and also, your dps matter! So you have to perform your dps rotation properly, greatly differenting a good tank and a bad tank. And that feels good, if I play a lot better than someone, it should be noticeable.

So now tanks have to, position boss, pick up adds, move out of fire, helping raid with raid cooldowns, all of which they did before, however now they also have to actually have to focus on their survivability and peform their rotation flawlessly aswell. I do not see what is wrong with adding that additional layer of depth to tanking since it does not affect the other roles in any way. Tanking got 10x harder, and 10x more fun.

The only thing I miss is being able to actually support raids with instant heals, all the dispells and extra support cooldowns like HoF. However, that is just wishful thinking, since implementing that would make tanks too good, however it would be fun, it would simply be too good. Though I would like to have that additional level of play aswell, having to watch out for debuffs on the raid and dispell them and constantly check raid frames and heal people that goes low. Sad to see that gone, however, tanking is still in a good place right now, implementing that in again would make it better, but probably too good.

Right now I think that the Monk and Paladin tanking model is the correct one. Druids are very close however they need a more noticeable active mitigation like monks and paladins. Warriors are also kinda in a good boat, however they just need a bit more damage output, and the same as druids, a more noticeable active mitigation. Failing up your AM does not hurt as much on a warrior or a druid as on a monk or paladin (but does not have the same reward either). DKs are just in a messed up situations, that entire spec needs rework.
Other than a few numbers tunings *cough*Monks flying under the radar*cough*. Tanking feels better than ever.

Also like how gearing has never been so much fun on a tank. So many different ways to gear, and different items that are viable. Reminds me of the ulduar days when BiS for retri was agility gear, pretty much had full leather agility gear with a few mail pieces on my retribution paladin in wrath when suddenly, agility gives no AP to strength users.
Before getting an upgrade on a tank was "Oh yeah, I got an addtional 0.13% chance to block and 0.17% chance to parry, awesome!
Now you actually feel good getting an upgrade.

I just don't understand how people can argue that adding another task (not like tanks do not have to position boss properly anymore) is a bad thing.
Especially tanks. On one level I understand that there will always be some DPSers that are butthurt on seeing tanks competetive on damage meters.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 12:45 PM ----------

Well as long as blizzard make it so all the tanking classes can use the new model and not be trailing behind, i would be fine with it.

With respect to the old stats, I wonder about a rework to how they operate.

Parry : When a prot warrior successfully parries an attack he gains X rage and increases his next chance to crit by X amount.

( So parry could generate a resource, provide defense and help with dps/dmg by effecting crit)

Dodge : Upon next successful dodge you gain X amount of rage and for the next X seconds your attack speed is increased by X%.

( Once again dodge generates a resource, is a defensive stat and can help dps/dmg)

What would you think if warrior passive unwavering sentinel included this feature.

I would rather just see dodge and parry scrapped. Allow haste to further increase a warriors rage generation, and make crits useful in some way aswell. Crits could become a mini tooth&claw, or crits giving additional rage, or crits giving some defensive stats, successful crits could have a chance to grant block or something.

Strength can still give parry to tanks, however parry and dodge rating is a thing of the past, time to get rid of them.

The thing is Dodge and Parry was never desired by tanks, ever, they have just been the most desirable stat, the lesser of two evils, we just had it on our gear but never really cared about it. It never served any real purpose.

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 12:48 PM ----------

Well as long as blizzard make it so all the tanking classes can use the new model and not be trailing behind, i would be fine with it.

And I think you hit the nail here. There is so much QQ again (especially) paladins and monks. Think monks is flying under the radar due to still being a new class and so many people still cant play them properly. Instead of QQing "Hey look, paladins and monks (and to some extent druids) is actually having fun! They should not have fun". Why not instead complain "Hey, we wanna have fun too!" and get dks, warriors (+druids) up to the level of paladins and monks.

I do not understand this logic of "Hey, my class is boring, lets drag the other classes down to my level". Why are people not instead trying to get their classes improved?

[Nairobi]

Aside from the fact that your suggestion about how to "help" D/P means that D/P gear would still be in the game, which is a terrible direction to move, it would make Prot war's DPS-Juggernauts on AOE fights with multiple targets. This means they'd do lots of damage, which I thought you've mentioned now was diametrically opposed to what "tanks should do"?

I don't really get the "I DON'T WANT TO DPS" Mantra of people (most of whom are still clinging to D/P as the go-to stats for tanking) that play tanks. It's like it physically pains people to do damage that is a meaningful contribution to the group as a tank. [Good] Protpal, BrM's and even Guardians do not stack "DPS" stats because of some e-peen contest to top meters, they do it because it is the most effective way to increase their ShotR uptime, Shuffle uptime, and RPS (respectively). THESE ARE ALL TANK THINGS. These are all, also, their active mitigation (aka Skillcap, not meatshield) abilities. This is a good model. It rewards players who use their AM/CDs/Abilities well, and punishes those who do not.

A still viable alternative is to stack stamina and mastery (for prot pal in this example) if you do not like to focus on ShotR uptime and prefer a more stochastic and passive approach. But any experienced tank who is progressed past 1/12 normal can attest that the least effective, efficient and fun way to gear or play is an avoidance build.

I think you're finally starting to get the argument that we are making, in that D/P needs to go away AND we need to make the other classes scale with "DPS" secondaries (like Pal, monk, druid do already). Go take a look at my first post here on how to make that happen for Blood and Protwar, and then look at the differences of your suggestion to mine. See which one looks more fun. NOTE: I think that keeping in dodge and parry as ABILITIES (based off of your Agi and Str respecitvely) is a good move, and you can "reward" dodging or parrying attacks with things like "increases damage by x%" or "grants x rage/chi/HoPo" could be fun. The problem is that granting a WHOLE Chi or HoPo per parry would be OP as hell when we're sitting at ~40% parry from STR, or monk's with elusive brew at ~80% dodge, and obv you can't give partial HoPo/Chi

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 12:55 PM ----------

And I think you hit the nail here. There is so much QQ again (especially) paladins and monks. Think monks is flying under the radar due to still being a new class and so many people still cant play them properly. Instead of QQing "Hey look, paladins and monks (and to some extent druids) is actually having fun! They should not have fun". Why not instead complain "Hey, we wanna have fun too!" and get dks, warriors (+druids) up to the level of paladins and monks.

I do not understand this logic of "Hey, my class is boring, lets drag the other classes down to my level". Why are people not instead trying to get their classes improved?

Boom. This. People are so fast to call for nerfs that they will forsake improving themselves if it means that they can nerf someone else. It's sad and destructive, and it needs to stop. Doesn't everyone want to be better? Why are people trying to nerf fun?

[JudgePayne]

Boom. This. People are so fast to call for nerfs that they will forsake improving themselves if it means that they can nerf someone else. It's sad and destructive, and it needs to stop. Doesn't everyone want to be better? Why are people trying to nerf fun?

Firstly sorry if I came across as not being productive in this conversation, the reason why I kept bringing up D/P is because there are still a lot of tanks who like these passive stats but are not vocal about it.

I would be happy is they made warriors(which I play) more viable to use haste or crit or whatever stat but this is currently not the case.

I don't believe that blizzard will kill D/P, I think they will rework them some way (maybe not as I mentioned above but that was just a placeholder idea).

Another thing I want to address is the "I Don't wana DPS". These player should not have to be insulted or ridiculed for playing the role they wish. A number of vocal people here on mmo-champion "attack" threads written by tanks that would like a revival of the D/P method.

I like the A/M model and I think it has great benefits to a raid with the tanks involved being able to do as much dmg as some of the dps while also being able to act as a semi-geared healer and having the ability to tank.

But

Some people (mostly the D/P crowd) thing this is a bit too much. There have been numerous post's made by dps complaining about vengeance dps, healers complaining about tank self/raid healing being so high,and tank classes saying their threat generation is so low in comparison to the other tank.

Like it or not people are allowed to have their say and personally I can understand these grievances.

I think blizzard need's to take a good look at the entire tank role and decide on how it will be going forward.

[Deleted]

I like the A/M model and I think it has great benefits to a raid with the tanks involved being able to do as much dmg as some of the dps while also being able to act as a semi-geared healer and having the ability to tank.

Just because a tank heal themselves does not make them a semi geared healer. This is the most common misconception. If a warrior blocks a hit that is 500k damage down to a 300k hit, but a DK takes the 500k hit but heals himself 200k. Does that make the DK an extra healer? No it does not, it is a part of his damage mitigation. No tank right now is acting like an addtional healer, period. Also funny how this has become such a big problem because when looking at healers you have an even bigger issue, which is unbalanced healer dps, priest and monks do very nice dps while healing, paladins do okay but not good and druids have HotW which is a very nice CD to use for damage during low damage phases. Yet this is nowhere near the problem that tank hps seems to be, even though tanks mostly healt themselves , not the raid.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, tanks have been far more "healers" in the past few expansions, I spent more time looking at the raid frames and who to heal in cata and wotlk than I watched my dps rotation, yet this was all fun and games. However now, when tanks are healing themselves, suddenly it is not okay? Where is the logic?

The only real healing that tanks got now is,
1. Paladins LH/DP/LoH
2. Monks statues
3. Druids tranq

Like it or not people are allowed to have their say and personally I can understand these grievances.

People can say what they want, but unless they got some good arguments the back it up with, it does not really matter. The problem is that most people have the shittiest repetetive arguments (such as x tank is like having an extra healer), just because a tank does 40 or 50k hps, does not make him an extra healer since he can't direct that HPS where it is needed.

[NRL1515]

Just because a tank heal themselves does not make them a semi geared healer. This is the most common misconception. If a warrior blocks a hit that is 500k damage down to a 300k hit, but a DK takes the 500k hit but heals himself 200k. Does that make the DK an extra healer? No it does not, it is a part of his damage mitigation. No tank right now is acting like an addtional healer, period. Also funny how this has become such a big problem because when looking at healers you have an even bigger issue, which is unbalanced healer dps, priest and monks do very nice dps while healing, paladins do okay but not good and druids have HotW which is a very nice CD to use for damage during low damage phases. Yet this is nowhere near the problem that tank hps seems to be, even though tanks mostly healt themselves , not the raid.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, tanks have been far more "healers" in the past few expansions, I spent more time looking at the raid frames and who to heal in cata and wotlk than I watched my dps rotation, yet this was all fun and games. However now, when tanks are healing themselves, suddenly it is not okay? Where is the logic?

The only real healing that tanks got now is,
1. Paladins LH/DP/LoH
2. Monks statues
3. Druids tranq



People can say what they want, but unless they got some good arguments the back it up with, it does not really matter. The problem is that most people have the shittiest repetetive arguments (such as x tank is like having an extra healer), just because a tank does 40 or 50k hps, does not make him an extra healer since he can't direct that HPS where it is needed.

I said this in the other ridiculous thread about nerfing pally tanks, people only see the surface information they glean from skada/recount and refuse to put any context with what they're seeing. There are so many things that go into playing your class well; but with the way things are designed only a few of them show up on meters.

People scream that Pallies are like another healer; a VAST majority of their healing is healing themselves. They are DESIGNED to take more damage but can heal back up very quickly between weaving in SotR when applicable. Monks still don't have a very good way of determining how much damage they take; the meters aren't quite sure how to account for stagger damage taken/not taken, so you have to compare that with healing taken. Plus, they have no control over who gets guards from their statues. There are so many nuances that people fail to notice just because it's not immediately there at the surface, and they can't critically think about the information they're being provided.

[JudgePayne]

I said this in the other ridiculous thread about nerfing pally tanks, people only see the surface information they glean from skada/recount and refuse to put any context with what they're seeing. There are so many things that go into playing your class well; but with the way things are designed only a few of them show up on meters.

People scream that Pallies are like another healer; a VAST majority of their healing is healing themselves. They are DESIGNED to take more damage but can heal back up very quickly between weaving in SotR when applicable. Monks still don't have a very good way of determining how much damage they take; the meters aren't quite sure how to account for stagger damage taken/not taken, so you have to compare that with healing taken. Plus, they have no control over who gets guards from their statues. There are so many nuances that people fail to notice just because it's not immediately there at the surface, and they can't critically think about the information they're being provided.

The thread is about idea's on how to bring about changes to warrior and death knights, in the course of the discussion paladins and other tanks would have been brought up but if you read the previous posts going back to the first page this was most certainly not a anti-paladin thread.

[Ergar]

Never again tank 4-set raid cooldowns. I had enough of those in dragon soul, thank you.

[NRL1515]

The thread is about idea's on how to bring about changes to warrior and death knights, in the course of the discussion paladins and other tanks would have been brought up but if you read the previous posts going back to the first page this was most certainly not a anti-paladin thread.

I realize that, was just pointing to reference. I guess I didn't do a good enough job connecting the dots between the two. I agree that warriors and DKs need to be brought in line more with what pallies and monks and druids have by gearing mainly with 'offensive' stats and avoiding dodge and parry. Having crit (or w/e stat) give extra mitigation resources.

The developers are moving away from the old model of tanking, warriors and dks just need to be changed to fit this new model.

[Deleted]

I recommend Knight of the Blazing Sun skills for warriors (no aura twisting though). Blizzard can pull a far better skillset than mythic with that "knight commander" basic idea. Right now they (we) are condemned to very basic fights with the whole "no magic" design. Also, the long lost role of support class should be baked in on tanks on wow. Heavy short damage buffs / % reduction / burst healing cds are better placed on tanks, more than heavy DPS or healing via vengeance. You won't bring more tanks than needed to raids, contrary to stacking dps/healers with good raid CDs.

That's independent on making tanks scale on more interesting secondary stats instead of parry/dodge. Good riddance to them.

[Morbycakes]

Lets see, I'd say DK tanks are fine in and of themselves overall. At least, I never have any problems doing literally anything whenever I play my offspec (I have tanked most of the Heroic encounters this tier once or twice, with no notable fuck ups other than not managing my CD's properly)

However, when it comes to DK tanks, their damage taken is directly related to their CD usage and they need to know how to math out when every CD should be used at what point in time for what ability. Heroic Dark Animus is a great example for this as your AMS can get eaten if you don't have enough health/mit and you can refresh Explosive Slam on yourself, effectively wiping the raid.
Point being, DK tanks have a higher learning curve than Pallys/Warriors to be "good" at.

As for the set bonuses, here are two I propose in line with end of expansion set bonuses:

2p: Your Death Strike critical strikes now heal for twice as much.

4p: Your Rune Tap ability now heals everyone within 20 yards for 1% of their health every second for 10 seconds, and your Dancing Rune Weapon now causes all Death Strikes to critically hit for the duration of it's effect.

Just random ideas that I think lots of Blood DK's would enjoy. Bonuses that coincide well and make you feel much more powerful, with the 4p giving you a really large defensive CD. Both are about in line with the DS Tank set bonuses, overall.

[britishbubba]

Firstly sorry if I came across as not being productive in this conversation, the reason why I kept bringing up D/P is because there are still a lot of tanks who like these passive stats but are not vocal about it.

I don't see how there are any tanks that like having passive stats since they are just that... passive. They're random, so you have no control over them helping you. You *might* dodge that snapping bite that would have killed you, but you *might* not. I don't see how that's better gameplay for anyone. Even if it's a backburner sort of things.

I would be happy is they made warriors(which I play) more viable to use haste or crit or whatever stat but this is currently not the case.

Imo, do what narobi suggested, and have crit strike add onto their crit block at a simular rate as their mastery. Now they can gear their fury and prot specs with the same gear (fury goes crit > mastery iirc), and they'll do more damage to boot.

I don't believe that blizzard will kill D/P, I think they will rework them some way (maybe not as I mentioned above but that was just a placeholder idea).

I think if what they said about the AM style of tanking (which is that they like how it's turning out for monks and paladins) and the part that it causes tanks to favor dps stats... I find it unlikly that D/P will continue to survive on gear. We'll likely keep the passive gain on parry for str tanks and dodge for agi tanks, but I hope it's gone on the gear. It's really just wasted stat allocation.

Some people (mostly the D/P crowd) thing this is a bit too much. There have been numerous post's made by dps complaining about vengeance dps, healers complaining about tank self/raid healing being so high,and tank classes saying their threat generation is so low in comparison to the other tank.

So the tank does good dps (which the fights are tuned around!) and helps the raid kill the boss, and people choose to complain that "TANK JOHNNY MADE ME LOOK BAD ON THE METERS BECAUSE HE DID BETTER DPS THAN ME!!! WAAAAAAAAA". It's a childish and selfish notion that doesn't make sense, and has no place in a progressive raiding environment.

The only part that I can even understand is the part about threat gen. But that would be an issue at 150k vengeance, or 50k vengeance, because there's still a difference in the vengeance of each of the tanks when the swap occurs.

I think blizzard need's to take a good look at the entire tank role and decide on how it will be going forward.

It better be all tanks falling into line with the AM/"DPS" stat model. It's superior to the D/P model (especially since the removal of CTC cap)

To answer the original point of this thread...

throw warriors scaling from crit for their block. Give them some bonus rage generation from crit. Bam, they're fine.

Give DKs rune tap the ability to heal the raid again, add some way to control or at least influence your blood worms, or even make it so blood worm overheal makes a blood shield on the people it hits that scales with half your mastery. (that might need to be tweaked a bit). Then make haste scale a little bit better. BAM.

[JudgePayne]

Well the good thing is that most people seem to agree that the best changes for the classes would be as follows

Warriors : Warriors need to scale with a better secondary statistic (Crit), cool downs they seem fine, their scaling needs to be increased but not by too much.

Death-knights : Death-knight damage is good, their personal and raid wide cool downs need a rework/buff, people have mentioned a change to their resource system.

[Viromand]

None of those changes actually help both specs in any way. Set boni will not make classes good or bad. Look at pala most of them dont use the 4piece some not even the 2piece.
Edit: refering to first post

They need dps improvement. Both of them are so far behind druids monks and pala. Warrior not as much due to Banner, still pers. dps is still not as good. DKs dmg is even worse.

Both tanks need tp be reworked which will not happen this xpac. Maybe 5.4 but i doubt that.

[Nairobi]

None of those changes actually help both specs in any way

I...uhhh...wat? How?

Under the previous suggestions:

Warrior going for crit as a secondary (over D/P) would give 1) more CritBlock, 2) more RPS from crit attacks, and 3) more DPS.
DK going for haste would give 1) more DS/min, 2) more runes/min for ST and AOE dmg, and 3) more DPS.

The suggested changes to DK raid cooldowns (controllable blood worms, or Vamp-aura-type raid CD or raid-wide Vamp Blood/Blood Tap) would give the tank SOME form of raid contribution, without being over the top. Prot war was already in a good place for raid cooldowns as all will agree.

Unless you were referring to OP's first post, in which case most of us would (and have) agreed.

edit: you changed your post to reflect that you were, in fact, commenting on the OP's OP, in which case we are all in agreement. I'm leaving my post as is, though, so I don't look like a crazy-person.

[Deleted]

They need dps improvement. Both of them are so far behind druids monks and pala. Warrior not as much due to Banner, still pers. dps is still not as good. DKs dmg is even worse.

DKs are not that far behind other classes. Even looking on fights that a purely tank and spank (to avoid difference in tactics interfering with the results)
like Jin'Rokh
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin%2...00011111000000
We are actually seeing DKs on the top.

If we check another fight like Ji-Kun, DKs are trailing a bit
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Ji-Ku...00011111000000

Same goes for Horridon, which is a fight far more paladins 'solo' tank than DKs
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Horri...00011111000000
DKs are only trailing a little bit.

I would refrain from looking at the overall for heroics as there are not yet enough samples to claim it to be anywhere near accurate.
However if you feel like it.
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00011111000000
I would still take the with a grain of salt, but even on the overall, all tanks are almost on par except warriors (however they got banner so hard to count with that)

Checking normal logs where we actually got enough logs.
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...00011111000000
DKs are second.

Imo DKs problems are not in the dps, it is slightly in the survivability (not much), but more in the raid utility and ability to assist the second tank, which DKs completely lack.

[Tojara]

They need to get rid of dodge/parry as a stat completely.

DK/Warrior aren't that bad but they have scaling issues DPS wise because critical strike does nothing for our survival and mastery is significant survival tool. Haste isn't awful for DKs but it's certainly not as good of a stat compared to protection paladins.

DKs in particular need to have more tools that benefit the raid. Another raid CD or something that we already have improved/modified to extend to our raid members. It can be blood DK exclusive such that we don't run into a problem of having too many raid CDs in a world where there are too many to keep track of as is.

Back to my original point on dodge/parry, they honestly just need to go. They are boring stats and I think we already accomplish necessary avoidance from strength to parry conversion, or agility:dodge conversion for our agility friends. It might just be me, but tanking is more fun when you have control of your survival in addition to feeling like the buttons you press outside of dangerous times actual mean something (by that I simply mean that focusing on DPS as a tank at times is way more fun then being a meat shield). It just feels far more involved.

If you improved the haste/rune return for blood, gave DKs some much needed raid utility and found someway to incorporate critical strike into our survival (in some fashion) I think that would improve DK tanking by a decent amount.

We aren't awful tanks by any means, but I think the current protection paladin and monk model is the model all tanks should be based around. Basically remove dodge/parry and make all tanks care about traditional DPS stats for survival, it's way more fun and in turn removes very niche gear from loot tables.

The reason why you will see a lot of DKs doing insane damage on Jin'Rokh is because it's one of the few fights that DKs can effectively cheese. AMS blocks static burst which enables you to tank him with high vengeance while sitting in a puddle. Other tanks can't do that.

[Deleted]

Linking 10-man parses when talking about vengeance scaling ? really? really?

1. A majority of the player base play 10 man, and an even larger majority of the tanks.
2. Tanks vengeance scaling is more impactful in 10 man than 25 since tank dps is a larger part of the raid dps aswell as a larger part of raid hps.
3. There is not big enough sample size in 25 man (especially heroic) for it to be reliable.
4. 25 man vengeance varies more as the boss damage is higher, therefor making the results between different logs larger.

Any specific reason why 25 man should be the baseline other than ofc it being higher vengeance?


And nobody here is argueing that DKs is not far behind other tanks overall in terms of tanking. Though that problem lies more in DKs than Paladins (even though yes, SS scales far to well with vengeance, SS could easily recieve a 50% nerf)

[Mormolyce]

Eh, you could maybe do something like that thunderclap idea as a talent.

The main thing I'd change about Prot Warriors is merge Shield Slam and Revenge or differentiate them better, to me they're practically the same button. Maybe make Revenge deal a lot more damage and give a lot more rage but on a much longer CD. Also I don't like abilities which have both a CD and a proc like SS. Leads to awkward situations like getting a proc seconds before it would've come off CD anyway. Be nice if it was proc only and I got to Devastate more. Might have to adjust rage returns somehow to compensate. In fact, could make Revenge completely CD based and SS completely proc based.