Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ...
2
3
4
  1. #61
    Eh, you could maybe do something like that thunderclap idea as a talent.

    The main thing I'd change about Prot Warriors is merge Shield Slam and Revenge or differentiate them better, to me they're practically the same button. Maybe make Revenge deal a lot more damage and give a lot more rage but on a much longer CD. Also I don't like abilities which have both a CD and a proc like SS. Leads to awkward situations like getting a proc seconds before it would've come off CD anyway. Be nice if it was proc only and I got to Devastate more. Might have to adjust rage returns somehow to compensate. In fact, could make Revenge completely CD based and SS completely proc based.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  2. #62
    To further continue aswell.

    Okay, if you want to use 25 man heroic as a baseline (and Iron Qon of all fights???)

    1. Could just chime in that the top monk did 426k dps

    2. There are 303 paladin logs, 117 DK logs. Having a bigger sample size of paladins naturally increases their top 100 logs relatively to the DK logs. To stress that, the top100 DK includes the 16th percentile of overall DKs, while paladins top 100 includes the 67th percentile. Do you see the problem here? Why looking at Iron Qon 25H is completely irrelevant? It should not be that hard to understand. You cant take 300 warlocks and 100 mages, put them on dummies and say "Oh! The top 10 warlocks did more damage than the top 10 mages!". Naturally if you check the best 10 people out of 300 they will (probably) be better than the 10 best people out of 100. For reference to other classes there are 152 monk logs, 90 druid logs and 189 warrior logs.

    3. Checking the top 1 log is never a good measurement. Having achieved several rank 1 logs myself as a paladin, I would not look at my own logs for comparison, as some of them involved cheesy tactics and not playing as intended, padding the meters. Just as an example, that paladin is using execution sentence.

    4. Just to say again? Iron Qon? Really? Why use that as a baseline. Just checking top dks, you just have to go down about 15 logs to find DKs dual tanking it. Of course DK logs will be lower as not even one page of people have 1 tanked it as a dk (and logged it). So basically you are comparing the performance of about 10 people vs almost 100.

    Even though I agree that checking 25H logs would be better to check pure vengeance scaling for future raids to balance out scaling so that it increases less over time without impacting current levels. The fact is that the 25H vengeance is in the current tier irrelevant to more players than it is relevant too, making it a bad baseline for judging the current tier. Add that on top of the fact the very low sample size in 25H, making it extremely silly to take logs from it. You can compare 300 vs 100 people. Or just check Durumu, 245 paladins vs 76 DKs? Yeah that makes a good comparison! 180 warriors vs 38 druids? Yeah! That will make perfect comparison.

    This is also the reason why I also like to use normal mode raids as a baseline often, since the sample size is bigger giving a more accurate result.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  3. #63
    Because it doesn't take a genius to realize that vengeance scaling issues happen when vengeance spirals out of control in 25H and not in 10N. Why don't you use a training dummy to judge tank DPS while you're at it? You're not looking at DPS specs here. You're looking at tank specs that scale with the encounter. Class balance barely matters in normal modes, it matters for heroics. Class balance is even more volatile in 10-man due to class composition issues (where the odds of more scarce debuffs like sunder armor are less likely to be present)

    In case you haven't noticed, it's in 25-man that the discrepancy is the highest. Have a guess why the sample sizes are so small when it comes to some specs? No-one takes Arms Warriors and Frost DKs too, I wonder why...

    I choose Iron Qon because it's the only fight that has close to no external factors. 1 tank, 1 boss, barely any extra damage, over 85% of damage taken (if not 90%) comes from melee or unavoidable abilities, very little extra damage is taken on purpose, if any. the only cheesing that can be done is through the number of Impale stacks before BoP'ing, both logs do the exact same thing here. It's also a pure single target fight where there is no pad doable through AoEing meaningless targets -aka the scenario that matters the most.
    Every other fight has damage multipliers or other gimmicks that inflate DPS(or has no parses available because of WoL being super slow, aka Lei Shen/Ra-den. Ra-den would be the perfect fight, actually.)

    And regarding everything else you said concerning what you could have simply summed up as sample bias, nothing is forcing you to use top 100 parses, or the 75th percentile for that matter. No-one is even forcing you to use such a thing as the horrendous DPSbot. I don't even want to approach tank DPS issues personally, it's not a problem that is solvable in the current xpac. I'm merely talking about survival.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-05-14 at 06:05 AM.

  4. #64
    I am using WoL, raidbots is simply a tool for getting information out of WoL faster an easier. And yes, I would agree with you, 25HC would make more sense to gather logs from, if the sample size was better. You are completely right with what you say about vengeance scaling out of control there. However, you can not also only look at 25HC, you also have to look at 25N, 10H, 10N to see that it scales well in all difficulties, because like it or not, 25H is the minority, you can not blindly look at that, it has to work in all sizes. There are more people playing this game than you, and believe it or not, not everyone is 25H raiders.

    Iron Qon? I agree that the external factors are low when talking about damage taken, but not damage done. Damage taken, the only differing factors is if you stand in the fire to get more vengeance, and when you reset the stacks. However damage done, both your tactic, how slow/fast your dps is, dead zones, storms, walking into ice etc all play a huge a part on the damage done.

    And yes, nobody is forcing me to take top 100, or 75th percentile (or 75th percentile of top 100 a.k.a. rank 25), however those for me are good measuring points. Checking the rank 1 is not. Though, when you are dealing with two sample sizes where one is 300% larger than the other, choosing a point of measurement is not the easiest task. Basically what you are doing, is putting 300 people into one room and giving them a math test, then putting 100 people in another room giving them a different math test. Then afterwards you collect the results, and behold! The top few people of the 300 scored a higher score than the top few people of the 100 people! What a suprise.

    This is why 25HC is so awkward, we are dealing with so incredibly small sample sizes that the room for error is far to big.

    I am completely on your side with DKs being a bit behind in survivability and especially raid utility. I agree with you fully there. I just disagreed with the use of rank 1 logs from 25HC sample size to use a basis or 'proof'. Also I just do not agree that they are so far behind in DPS. Maybe they scale worse than other tanks in terms of DPS in 25HC, then that should be worked on so that they scale better, however at 10N, 10H, 25N their damage is fine, I am not myself playing 25H so I can not express myself there, and there is not a big enough sample size for me to form a conclusive opinion without playing the difficulty myself.

    To say that class balance does not matter in normal is quite narrowminded. Maybe it does not matter for your or me, but there are several guilds stuck in normal mode, and for them it matters just as much as balance in heroic matters for you. Just because your guild is steamrolling normals, it does not mean that every guild is doing so.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Basically what you are doing, is putting 300 people into one room and giving them a math test, then putting 100 people in another room giving them a different math test. Then afterwards you collect the results, and behold! The top few people of the 300 scored a higher score than the top few people of the 100 people! What a suprise.
    A comparable analogy would be looking at the horde/alliance ratio for top guilds. Obviously the top guilds aren't top guilds simply because they are horde - but there is a huge reason as to why guilds chose this faction and not the other. Sample bias works the same way - I'm sure DK/Warrior/Druid results could be higher if given the chance, but there is a very simple and clear reason as to why everyone is using Paladins and Monks and lots of top players from other tank classes are switching/have switched to these classes.

    I re-affirm that class balance doesn't matter much for normal modes. Sure it matters for the most part (as in you don't want a class performing literally twice better than another), but the kind of people who care about this the most (and will actively exploit strengths and weakness of classes instead of just using whoever's online) are not normal mode raiders, they are heroic raiders.
    I don't think this is even degrading towards 10-man raiding or normal mode raiding by the way, it's simply that for the most part, dedicated and skilled players are the ones who care the most about balance and they happen to play heroics, not LFR, 5-mans, or level 60 twink raids. Just like level 90 class balance is more important than level 50 class balance, heroic level balance is more important than normal or LFR level balance.

    I'm also going to be honest about this and admit that I don't think it's a solveable problem this xpac at all. Vengeance has limitations, it doesn't mimic damage taken perfectly and still has some issues, it also doesn't scale at the same rate as maximum HP or actual damage taken at all.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-05-14 at 06:59 AM.

  6. #66
    You could simply put do the same thing on a blood dk that you would a prot pally. Stack haste gems, go hard expertise cap, and essentially be a DPS tank. It has been done.

    More rune regen, more death strikes, = more mitigation but smaller shields and essentially more dps. Same for pallys. Mastery = stronger SOTR. haste = higher uptime and more dps.

  7. #67
    And don't forget hand of purity.
    It's no wonder that a paladin would take less damage from impale if he got a high uptime on hand of purity has and the dk didn't.

  8. #68
    lol @ those set bonuses for DK. If only xD

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgePayne View Post
    Hi guys, firstly I'm not saying any tanking class is over powered or under powered. The ideas i am proposing are just quality of life issues with what I would like to see as new tier bonuses.

    I play a warrior and a death knight so these are the two tanking classes I will be discussing first.

    Protection Warriors:
    Update Thunder Clap - Thunder Clap leaves an aoe on the ground that slows and damages
    all enemies within. (use the same thundercloud model as kazra'jin's roll)( aoe dmg equal to 30% of damage dealt)

    Warrior tier:

    2 Piece : Your shield slam has a 15% chance to make your next shield block cost no rage.
    4 Piece : Your heroic strike apply a bleed equal to 30% of the damage dealt.( Effect stacks 4 times )


    Blood Death knights
    More Dark sim targets (this is not just a blood issue but an entire issue itself)

    2 Piece : When you lose a stack of bone shield you have a 10% chance to make your next icebound fortitude will
    cost no resources and become ready to use (if on cool down).

    4 Piece : Your death and decay reduces all dmg taken by 40% for yourself
    and 20% for all raiders within the death and decay.

    What do people think of these idea's.

    I'm am trying to make all tanking 2 pieces be defensive based and the 4 piece to be utility or dmg depending on what the class needs.
    Those DK set bonuses are hilariously OP Resetting your Shield Wall cooldown that often is quite broken.

    DK tanking, imo, is pretty much perfect, from a design point of view. Paladins are a close second, but the other tanks are a long way off from having interesting mechanics. Warrior active mitigation is very boring though, and could really use something... exciting? I dunno. Shield Barrier is a really boring move. Effective but boring.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by JudgePayne View Post
    2 Piece : When you lose a stack of bone shield you have a 10% chance to make your next icebound fortitude will
    cost no resources and become ready to use (if on cool down).

    4 Piece : Your death and decay reduces all dmg taken by 40% for yourself
    and 20% for all raiders within the death and decay.
    About the 2 piece-for blood dks, IBF already costs no resources. It's free for blood, it's frost and unholy that have to pay for it. And, umm...that 4 piece is kinda immensely potent as well. DnD lasts 10 seconds and has a 30 sec CD...that means for 33% of the fight, you can have the equivalent of what a warrior gets from having to pop a 2 min CD...and you also apply half of it to anyone else standing around you?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansekh View Post
    And don't forget hand of purity.
    It's no wonder that a paladin would take less damage from impale if he got a high uptime on hand of purity has and the dk didn't.
    He is not using Hand of Purity.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../6/?s=36&e=594

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Liax View Post
    You could simply put do the same thing on a blood dk that you would a prot pally. Stack haste gems, go hard expertise cap, and essentially be a DPS tank. It has been done.

    More rune regen, more death strikes, = more mitigation but smaller shields and essentially more dps. Same for pallys. Mastery = stronger SOTR. haste = higher uptime and more dps.
    You could say that about any tank, it wouldn't be true or accurate. DKs DO get some MINOR rune speed currently from haste, but even stacking haste gems it will be nowhere near the visceral level of CD (and GCD) reduction that Prot Pal's get from Sanctity of Battle. That's why, in my suggestions, I offered up increasing the scaling of haste for blood by 200%, to make it a viable option (since their AM styles are similar). Riggs tried going full STR (and full haste too, i believe) for DPS to prove this, and ended up just rolling a monk (lol).

    @ Mione & Firefly - Look, both of you have accurate and well constructed arguments, and are largely on the same side here. Mione, I understand that you don't like/agree/think that monk/paladin is in the right place, especially considering tank utility; coming from a DK, you guys don't offer much, and that sucks. However, you're a 25H raider, which is perhaps the smallest minority in the game right now, but working with the largest toolbox at your disposal. As a 10H raider myself, we HAVE to have all the utility we can get from everyone, and HAVE to stack classes when we can to get the same effect as 25s if we need to cover a missing buff or CD. I'm not saying your opinion is invalid or wrong at all, but the reason we have so much more data on Monks and Palas is not only because they are "LOLOP", but because so many progressive 10s are using those 2 tanks for the amount of utility they bring to the table to fill gaps/holes in their roster.

    The biggest issue in Prot vs Blood parity is that DK's scaling for self heals is being hamstrung by the DS mechanics, while Pala self healing is limited only by the bounds of vengeance (which, currently, are nearly unobtainable). If you set DS healing to scale off of Vengeance in addition to or instead of the 5sec window for dmg taken, you'd see more parity in the numbers. Does this mean that the DK system is more fair or better controlled than the "wild west" of vengeance we have now? Maybe, that's a bit of a judgement call. Prot pal's WILL be seeing ShotR uptimes of 80%+ in SoO, along with only increasing levels of self-healing if we assume that the dmg throghput remains on this path. This means further exacerbation of mechanics are possible/going to happen, unless something is changed coding-wise (which I REALLY think they will, given the public outrage against BoP/Bubble this tier).

    I dunno, I can't help but read this thread, and the pollution of "OP! NERF!" that comes to it and most other threads recently and feel bad about the entire way the community has moved/shifted paradigms. I'm not saying or suggesting that everyone can or should 1) adapt, 2) reroll, or 3) abuse the current system of what is strongest (even though lots of people do, and Blizz plans around that as they have states). More I'm talking about the ideology of "He's too strong, GET HIM!" instead of positive reinforcement and solutions to your OWN problems. If you feel something is lacking from YOUR toolbox, you don't have to break it for all the other kids, that's just petty. If history has shown us anything in this game, it's that everyone will get everything eventually. Class homogenization is at an all time high, and between now and 6.0 the time is ripe and overdue for a tank overahul. They've stated that Protpal (and occasionally monk) are in a good place. Instead of screaming til you're blue in the face trying to change something that the dev's have basically said "is not changing", maybe you should look at what to put on your christmas list.

    Isn't that what this thread was supposed to be about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  13. #73
    Just to make a point here, yes my original ideas for the changes were dramatic and op but they had the desired effect of getting a good conversation going about the underlying issue with dk and warrior tanking in the current tank models in place.

  14. #74
    I think the main problem with tanks, and wow in general these days is: they wanted to make active mitigation a thing, so they looked at every tanking class and basically gave them a reason to get exp/hit/dps stats because their rotation was needed to sustain the resource they needed to use their defensive abilities. they slapped a couple defensive abilities on each spec, and they pretty much play the same, with the exception of blood dk, which is a fully fleshed out, fun active mitigation system.


    they forced active mitigation to be a thing, and it kinda left most of the classes feeling the same. get hit/exp caps, use dps rotation abilities, spend lots of a resouce on a defensive ability, repeat. i'm exaggerating the simplicity of it, but you get the point.

    each class needs to have a specific flavor, and imo druids and warriors are the worst right now. they just don't feel fun. feral needs to be reworked completely, and please, sacrifice some of the active mitigation to make the class unique and fun. I don't have the faintest idea how, but something needs to be changed.

    and warrior, i have some ideas for this. first, take shield block and barrier, make them share a 10 sec cooldown, 5 sec duration (or something like that, maybe 14/7) and cost less rage, (like 10-20) this way, every 5-10 seconds you use one of them, but you have to choose, and it doesn't cost you 15 seconds worth of rage generation. this change alone would make warriors fun again. You can't have shield block up all the time (50% of the time at most), so you can't just use it on cooldown, but you aren't punished as much and your healers will notice a difference between a good warrior and a bad warrior.

    you could add a mechanic to heroic strike or cleave that reduces the target's attack speed (further than thunderclap;60%) that stacks up to 2 times and gets removed when the target attacks to give prot warriors a reason to hit it, other than for dps.


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •