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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    The only mistake in MoP 5 man HC was Blizzard's decision of not making new ones with catch up gear like they did in WotLK.
    The other mistake was obliterating JP in favor of a almost entirely VP focused model, with no currency downgrading. JP is an easily farmed currency, VP is not.

  2. #242
    regardless of the actual difficulty of normal raiding, easier or harder then previous xpac, there are many guild progressing through it. The tier isn't over yet.
    For easy raiding, you have LFR now.

    why are people crying about difficulty? Before, their argument were that very few go to actually see the content. but now there is LFR, so seeing the content is no more the actual reason. Why do people want easier normal raiding then?

  3. #243
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurushockin View Post
    Good post, I just wanna see where it goes. Also would like to see a blue poster in here.
    These aren't the Blizzard forums so while not impossible, it's unlikely. Highly. Even vanishingly. I hope someone over there has seen it though. There's a lot of good thoughtful stuff throughout the thread.
    A bit of civility and respect for others opinions goes a long way toward getting any respect in return. Overly hostile, profane and insulting posts are a sign that people don't really have anything to say. Profanity is best served out in very small doses.

    "Forum drama exists because people enjoy creating it." - ML/2013

  4. #244
    Herald of the Titans Zellviren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    Yes it is. I have written nearly a novel of stuff down why this is the case in another thread but I will leave the basics here.

    In an effort to allow players who focus on one character to have something to do, they dragged out the entire game. Everything from leveling, to progression, to reputations, etc... Take longer to accomplish. This made it so the game, for awhile now, does not lend itself well to "short term" and "simple" goals. Gone are the days of logging on a single weekend, running dungeons for a stock of JP and just buying gear from the vendors. Now you have to do LFR to really progress, which is heavily bogged down by the nature of RNG.

    In WOTLK I could log on my druid and in a weekend get full T9.

    In MoP I will likely spend hours running three LFR wings and walk away with nothing but gold.

    There is the problem, and why so many people dropped in the east. They play the game BY THE HOUR, not by the month. When you have only an hour to play before you have to pay again, and the game no longer lets to pull off short terms goals in that hour that feel accomplished, you will likely quit. Even the horse will get tired of the carrot, if after so long he can't even gain a satisfying nibble.
    I enjoyed that a lot, and agree with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    regardless of the actual difficulty of normal raiding, easier or harder then previous xpac, there are many guild progressing through it. The tier isn't over yet.
    For easy raiding, you have LFR now.

    why are people crying about difficulty? Before, their argument were that very few go to actually see the content. but now there is LFR, so seeing the content is no more the actual reason. Why do people want easier normal raiding then?
    I think you need to read the OP in its entirety.

    Clearly, you haven't bothered to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    For easy raiding, you have LFR now.
    Except LFR can be pretty horrible in a number of ways.

    For example, my resto Druid ran HoF for the first time yesterday. He finally got the required ilevel from PvP gear, since he hardly got any drops from MSV. So PvP gear, only just managed to get in, a disc priest and 2 healadins in the raid ... I should have been the bottom healer by far.

    Instead we almost wiped on trash several times because two of the healers didn't do a damned thing. They did at least decide to participate for the boss fight, yet I still managed to come top on healing. That shouldn't have been possible.

    On the next boss, we almost wiped because of people not bunching up for the unseen strikes(?). I was second on healing, less than 1% below first place. I'd checked out the other healers on the way - my gear was 466/470, the others were all 478-500ish.

    Finally on Garalon, most of the DPS managed to die to pheranomes. We still managed to kill him just before he enraged, and I was third on healing, despite being oom for most of the fight.

    All through the run, people were constantly harassing each other, deliberately giving the wrong tactics, trying to cause wipes, vote-kicking random people, body pulling .. it was a really painful run, and may have been enough to stop me queuing again for a couple of weeks.

    LFR can be okay, but it can also be like this. Good groups become increasingly rare over time.

  6. #246
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    The other mistake was obliterating JP in favor of a almost entirely VP focused model, with no currency downgrading. JP is an easily farmed currency, VP is not.
    I don't get it. Honest. Why have jp at all?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliessil View Post
    Except LFR can be pretty horrible in a number of ways.

    For example, my resto Druid ran HoF for the first time yesterday. He finally got the required ilevel from PvP gear, since he hardly got any drops from MSV. So PvP gear, only just managed to get in, a disc priest and 2 healadins in the raid ... I should have been the bottom healer by far.

    Instead we almost wiped on trash several times because two of the healers didn't do a damned thing. They did at least decide to participate for the boss fight, yet I still managed to come top on healing. That shouldn't have been possible.

    On the next boss, we almost wiped because of people not bunching up for the unseen strikes(?). I was second on healing, less than 1% below first place. I'd checked out the other healers on the way - my gear was 466/470, the others were all 478-500ish.

    Finally on Garalon, most of the DPS managed to die to pheranomes. We still managed to kill him just before he enraged, and I was third on healing, despite being oom for most of the fight.

    All through the run, people were constantly harassing each other, deliberately giving the wrong tactics, trying to cause wipes, vote-kicking random people, body pulling .. it was a really painful run, and may have been enough to stop me queuing again for a couple of weeks.

    LFR can be okay, but it can also be like this. Good groups become increasingly rare over time.
    But those players pay $15/month too! Shouldn't they also get to kill Normal Lei Shen before 5.4? After all they are part of the average playerbase and Normal mode should be tuned for the average playerbase.

  8. #248
    I have read all of this topic and many people throw the term "casual" around like its something to be looked down on. Casual by its definition simply means relaxed, easy going, not taking things too serious. Many casuals as people call them read forums. Many try to do quite good when they play. To me a casual raider is someone who wants to raid with friends in an easy, laid back environment. An environment that doesn't require min-maxing, perfect execution or hours of study on boss mechanics. LFR, from what blizz has said is designed for players who cannot raid on a schedule at all. Most casual players can raid on a schedule but with content that punishes minor mistakes they are left with LFR or ditching friends. Many times the friends they leave have been their friends for years. IMO LFR shouldn't be considered a difficulty at all. It should be more like Normal is for the easy relaxed players who want to run with friends and heroics should be for players who want a massive challenge. I honestly don't know why many "hardcore" players care about the difficulty of normal modes. I mean really? What do they care? They have their content in heroics, let the rest have their normal modes and people who don't have a schedule to raid with a group have LFR. Thats my opinion.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    But those players pay $15/month too! Shouldn't they also get to kill Normal Lei Shen before 5.4? After all they are part of the average playerbase and Normal mode should be tuned for the average playerbase.
    I don't care whether they do or not, so long as they're not deliberately trying to mess up my group at the time (or ever again, for that matter)!

    I have no problem with bad players, I just don't like people who don't make any effort, or who deliberately try to ruin things for others.

  10. #250
    The Lightbringer ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliessil View Post
    Except LFR can be pretty horrible in a number of ways.

    For example, my resto Druid ran HoF for the first time yesterday. He finally got the required ilevel from PvP gear, since he hardly got any drops from MSV. So PvP gear, only just managed to get in, a disc priest and 2 healadins in the raid ... I should have been the bottom healer by far.

    Instead we almost wiped on trash several times because two of the healers didn't do a damned thing. They did at least decide to participate for the boss fight, yet I still managed to come top on healing. That shouldn't have been possible.

    On the next boss, we almost wiped because of people not bunching up for the unseen strikes(?). I was second on healing, less than 1% below first place. I'd checked out the other healers on the way - my gear was 466/470, the others were all 478-500ish.

    Finally on Garalon, most of the DPS managed to die to pheranomes. We still managed to kill him just before he enraged, and I was third on healing, despite being oom for most of the fight.

    All through the run, people were constantly harassing each other, deliberately giving the wrong tactics, trying to cause wipes, vote-kicking random people, body pulling .. it was a really painful run, and may have been enough to stop me queuing again for a couple of weeks.

    LFR can be okay, but it can also be like this. Good groups become increasingly rare over time.
    You made some excellent points. When people are talking about LFR, we tend to think of the "ideal" LFR - current tier, soon after reset. Get outside of those relatively tight limits, and it becomes (in my limited experience with it) something truly awful.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    But those players pay $15/month too! Shouldn't they also get to kill Normal Lei Shen before 5.4? After all they are part of the average playerbase and Normal mode should be tuned for the average playerbase.
    That is not average. Average is the guy playing the Warlock that performs decently, doesn't stand in fire, attempts to follow the mechanics but still hasn't gotten down proper DoT management to min/max his DPS, and so his DPS isn't as high as it could be; average is the healer that keeps the group alive but doesn't use X ability as often as he should to anticipate damage; average is the tank who is still learning when to use Shield Block vs. Shield Barrier and when to use what cooldown.

    The people you describe are, more than likely, trolls. I've been running LFR often lately and when there's a bad group it's usually not because someone is an idiot, it's because they have the mentality "LFR is ez mode" and don't bother to try because of that. I have very rarely ever seen an actual "bad" player, usually it's some arrogant asshole that just doesn't feel they should bother to try their best because they figure they'll just get carried by everyone else.

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  12. #252
    Honestly the decline in casual engagement doesn't surprise me. The amount of casual content in this game has gone way up, and it's probably a little overwhelming to the casual players, especially if the "ZOMG THIS IS MANDATORY!" mindset carries over from the more hardcore players.

    Really though, since most of the losses were in a region where the market is different and the game itself is very different, it's kind of pointless for us to discuss what went wrong as really none of us know. The concerns that we have could mirror those of the eastern players that left, or they could be entirely different because the game/market is different. *shrug*

  13. #253
    Herald of the Titans Zellviren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Honestly the decline in casual engagement doesn't surprise me. The amount of casual content in this game has gone way up, and it's probably a little overwhelming to the casual players, especially if the "ZOMG THIS IS MANDATORY!" mindset carries over from the more hardcore players.

    Really though, since most of the losses were in a region where the market is different and the game itself is very different, it's kind of pointless for us to discuss what went wrong as really none of us know. The concerns that we have could mirror those of the eastern players that left, or they could be entirely different because the game/market is different. *shrug*
    All fair commentary, but the biggest thing for me is the staggering drop in normal raiding numbers. Less guilds have killed Horridon than killed Deathwing last I looked, so we're talking about a pretty huge delta. I dread to think how many guilds will kill Lei Shen on normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    regardless of the actual difficulty of normal raiding, easier or harder then previous xpac, there are many guild progressing through it. The tier isn't over yet.
    For easy raiding, you have LFR now.

    why are people crying about difficulty? Before, their argument were that very few go to actually see the content. but now there is LFR, so seeing the content is no more the actual reason. Why do people want easier normal raiding then?
    This is just not true. Almost half the guilds hevnt even started T15 because T14 destroyed them.

    Again, 42k guilds killed Stone Guards before 5.2 launched, 25k killed Jinrohk.

    Why wouldnt people cry about difficulty when there are TWO difficulties tuned for the top 20% of raiders and NONE for the lower 80% of ORGANIZED raiders?

    Dont you see how DUMB that is? Why do the top 20% of raiders need two difficulties tuned for them while there are ZERO for the lower 80%?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 09:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Honestly the decline in casual engagement doesn't surprise me. The amount of casual content in this game has gone way up, and it's probably a little overwhelming to the casual players, especially if the "ZOMG THIS IS MANDATORY!" mindset carries over from the more hardcore players.

    Really though, since most of the losses were in a region where the market is different and the game itself is very different, it's kind of pointless for us to discuss what went wrong as really none of us know. The concerns that we have could mirror those of the eastern players that left, or they could be entirely different because the game/market is different. *shrug*
    You are kidding right? The amount of casual content in MoP is almost ZERO. Huge grinds are NOT casual content, which means dailies, reputation are not casual content.

    The only casual content in MoP are 5 mans (which wont be made anymore), LFR and pet battles. Thats it.

    Blizzard told casuals to screw themselevs and made MoP for the special snowflake elitists.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-05-16 at 12:20 PM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    This is just not true. Almost half the guilds hevnt even started T15 because T14 destroyed them.

    Again, 42k guilds killed Stone Guards before 5.2 launched, 25k killed Jinrohk.

    Why wouldnt people cry about difficulty when there are TWO difficulties tuned for the top 20% of raiders and NONE for the lower 80% of ORGANIZED raiders?

    Dont you see how DUMB that is? Why do the top 20% of raiders need two difficulties tuned for them while there are ZERO for the lower 80%?
    ok, let's advance the discussion, let say the normal raider are indeed more challenge than their equivalent in cataclysm.


    - is the difficulty of a tier the sole factor in the decrease of raiding guild? obviously it may will be a factor, but is it the sole, is it even even the major one?
    - could the loss of 20k guild really blame for the loss of 1.3 millions sub?
    - nerfing normal raiding will widen the gap between normal and heroic, do you believe heroic should be nerfed too? do you think that once player based used to the lower difficulty of normal raiding, they may be asking next quarter a nerf of the heroic as well?
    - one last question, hypothetically, what if by "casual" player, blizzard didn't meant normal raider but LFR raider, would that mean that it is LFR that cause the lower engagement of the casual player.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    ok, let's advance the discussion, let say the normal raider are indeed more challenge than their equivalent in cataclysm.


    - is the difficulty of a tier the sole factor in the decrease of raiding guild? obviously it may will be a factor, but is it the sole, is it even even the major one?
    Sole cause? We don't know, but we do know casual engagement is a problem. And high end raiders are such a small minority they cannot possibly explain the decline.

    - could the loss of 20k guild really blame for the loss of 1.3 millions sub?
    There would also be losses from those who wanted to do organized raiding, but had that aborted before it could even start.

    - nerfing normal raiding will widen the gap between normal and heroic, do you believe heroic should be nerfed too? do you think that once player based used to the lower difficulty of normal raiding, they may be asking next quarter a nerf of the heroic as well?
    Heroic raiders are such a small minority that keeping them happy isn't a high priority. So, yes, heroic raids might be nerfed, and some of those who enjoy the current tuning might quit. It's tough getting thrown under the bus like that; if that happens, do what the greatly larger number of casuals do and vote with your (much smaller number of) dollars. Alternately, they might decide it's ok to have a large normal/heroic gap; there's a case to be made there too.

    If it helps any, I will say I like the idea of a large normal/heroic gap. This has some good social/psychological consequences, even if some people did complain about ToC.

    - one last question, hypothetically, what if by "casual" player, blizzard didn't meant normal raider but LFR raider, would that mean that it is LFR that cause the lower engagement of the casual player.
    If LFR is not engaging players, that argues for the inclusion of an easier organized raiding difficulty level. Ion H. has just confirmed there's a gap between LFR and normal. They recognize the problem, even if you might not want to.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-05-16 at 12:46 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

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  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    - is the difficulty of a tier the sole factor in the decrease of raiding guild? obviously it may will be a factor, but is it the sole, is it even even the major one?
    - could the loss of 20k guild really blame for the loss of 1.3 millions sub?
    the 'difficulty' of the previous tier also plays into it. in previous expansions the previous tiers were much more forgiving to average friends & family guilds trying to bring actual NEW raiders thru the previous tier to get geared up and familiar with raiding. If there's nowhere for new raiders to learn, they'll never be close to par for current raids.

    - nerfing normal raiding will widen the gap between normal and heroic, do you believe heroic should be nerfed too? do you think that once player based used to the lower difficulty of normal raiding, they may be asking next quarter a nerf of the heroic as well?
    I'm leaning towards the belief that they're too close in difficulty at present, and heroics should never get 'end of tier' nerfs.

    - one last question, hypothetically, what if by "casual" player, blizzard didn't meant normal raider but LFR raider, would that mean that it is LFR that cause the lower engagement of the casual player.
    blizzard claimed that the majority of accounts lost were in the asian markets, where hourly fees are more prevalent. would you resub an alt account or two just to do LFR when you can repeat it (if you really desired) on your main account ? blizzard fluffed its sub numbers for years with these accounts, now they're facing reality.

  18. #258
    Folks are now using the Exodus issue to push their 'the content's too hard' agenda?

    Good lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    - nerfing normal raiding will widen the gap between normal and heroic, do you believe heroic should be nerfed too? do you think that once player based used to the lower difficulty of normal raiding, they may be asking next quarter a nerf of the heroic as well?
    Make no mistake. Everyone who wants normals nerfed will want the same done to heroics as soon as they get there. And they'll use the same arguments as to why the game is broken unless this is carried out.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 08:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    If LFR is not engaging players, that argues for the inclusion of an easier organized raiding difficulty level.
    It's an assumption at best to even say how many of the sub losses were raiders of any sort to begin with.
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  19. #259
    Herald of the Titans Zellviren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Folks are now using the Exodus issue to push their 'the content's too hard' agenda?

    Good lord.
    No; at least I'm not. What I would say is that this grind to the top has reached fever pitch with the amount of hours players are willing to put in. Incidentally, this is a community issue and not a Blizzard one.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Make no mistake. Everyone who wants normals nerfed will want the same done to heroics as soon as they get there. And they'll use the same arguments as to why the game is broken unless this is carried out.
    Again, as the OP, no. Heroic raids are for those with the commitment to do them, not for those who simply want to spend some time playing with their friends and progressing their characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It's an assumption at best to even say how many of the sub losses were raiders of any sort to begin with.
    More of an educated guess - there are some correlations. The game grew when there was less to do but the endgame was more appropriate for casual players to get into, while the game is in decline now that there's more content than ever to play, but organised raids are now aimed at the minority of players. Clearly these correlations aren't perfect, but if you read through my OP again then you'll see why I think this issue is having a larger impact on the community as a whole, outside of merely normal raid groups.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    We don't know all the reasons, and if you honestly think that SoO will last for 15 months and that WoD won't release until the 20th of december, you are beyond silly.
    Well, we'll just have to wait and see who's "beyond silly"... Won't we?

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    ok, let's advance the discussion, let say the normal raider are indeed more challenge than their equivalent in cataclysm.
    Didnt really understand this: "let say the normal raider are indeed more challenge than their equivalent in cataclysm", what did you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    - is the difficulty of a tier the sole factor in the decrease of raiding guild? obviously it may will be a factor, but is it the sole, is it even even the major one?
    Sole? No. Major? yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    - could the loss of 20k guild really blame for the loss of 1.3 millions sub?
    If you want to advance the discussion you should actually read the posts of the people you are talking to. I have already stated that the sub loss is not majorly because ANYTHING raid related.

    Lack of dungeons, heavy grind based expansion, CRZ and several other aspects probably had more to blame than raiding in the sub l

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    - nerfing normal raiding will widen the gap between normal and heroic, do you believe heroic should be nerfed too? do you think that once player based used to the lower difficulty of normal raiding, they may be asking next quarter a nerf of the heroic as well?
    Widen not, it will CREATE one. Right now, there isnt a gap, first heroic boss is easier than last normal one, so there is no gap. I have already said that i dont think heroic should be nerfed and that i actually think heroic raids should NOT ask for normal completion, so heroic raiders can go into their difficulty right away. Again, if you want to advance the discussion you should read my postsin this very same thread.

    Heroic raids might be nerfed in the means of the required effort required. More and more top guilds are being disbanded because they cant keep the pace of the race because of all the things they need to do in order to compete, but thats something Blizzard should decide listening to heroic raiders only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vankrys View Post
    - one last question, hypothetically, what if by "casual" player, blizzard didn't meant normal raider but LFR raider, would that mean that it is LFR that cause the lower engagement of the casual player.
    Some casual players are LFR raiders. Some would actually like to do organized raiding, but as casuals they wont seek to optimize their gameplay, because they play casually, relaxed, not entirely seriously. This is the lower 80% of guilds that attempted T14 Normal and couldnt complete it in time that dont have a proper difficulty for them, while the top 20% have TWO.
    Last edited by Crashdummy; 2013-05-16 at 01:07 PM.

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