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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    True since day one, as proven again and again. Reiterating bad Talents/Specs/Glyphs/Classes (warlock *cough*) is actually one of the things how Blizzard sets itself apart from the Rest.
    Too many bad changes, imo. The only complaint I heard about Combat rogues in WotLK was that the rotation was too simple, which was a commentary more on how such a high percentage of rogue damage was from passives. This never changed. If anything, it became worse.

    Now, you have Bandit's Guile (awful), Adrenaline Rush energy capping you unless you spam abilities like crazy (so bad that Blizzard lowered the GCD with the T15 set bonus - awful), the new Blade Flurry (awful), Revealing Strike (not fun - awful), Killing Spree (only being a decent DPS cooldown if you use it under strict conditions - awful). The new talent system didn't make Combat anymore PvP viable really, utterly destroyed the identity of the Sub rogue... about the only positive change is that all three specs have Shadowstep now.

    As far as the new talent system itself, sorry but it sucks. Are you and I looking at the same talent trees? You realize that 90%+ of rogues and warriors basically have the same talents? The fact that Blizzard will need to change it again to even make it work for the next expansion is a sure sign it is fail to begin with.

    Glyphs too... fail (I'm looking at you Glyph of Hoarse Voice).
    Last edited by xixixviixiiii; 2013-05-10 at 12:06 AM.

  2. #62
    im not going to say why everybody else left, or why blizz is wrong, or w/e. i wall say why i quit. it wasnt over some class balance issue, dailies, lfd, lfr, or any other "major" issue. quite simply my guild folded. raiding was what i enjoyed in the game. my server was all but dead, and i didnt have enough interest to reroll and essentially start over, nor did i want to spend a ton of money to move my toons to another server and hope to get into a guild - a lot of money for a crap shoot as i see it. im sure plenty of people are going to tell me it's my fault, blah blah. fine, whatever. but it's not my job to find something wow can offer me, and pay for the privilege of doing so
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    The fucking Derpship has crashed on Herp Island...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Meet the new derp.

    Same as the old derp.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrynil View Post
    Excuse me for being a bastard here though for keep speaking about the talent redesign. Have you seen Path of Exile? Its a fan made game for how some would have loved Diablo III to be more like. There they have a skill tree which is perhaps the direction they should have taken. That surely gives alot of choices. Try take a look on their homepage inspiration
    I've seen it, and I love it. Again, I really don't want to go into this too much but the argument that the old talent trees were all cookie-cutter is a flat out lie that Blizzard used to promote the new skill pane (that's all it is). Yes, I don't dispute that some classes had a rough ride; but as a Protection warrior I had so many talents that were cool or optional, and I could put them together in so many combinations, the utterly underwhelming revamp hit me very hard. I've given myself time to get used to it, I fully appreciate that DPS classes in particular are more difficult to provide "options" for, but there were so many other ways they could have tackled this.

    The roots in Rift are a good way of making sure investment in a talent tree got you the statistically correct talents. The glyph pane itself could be removed and baked into a talent system that has more options. The ability to make your character play a certain way is something that's lost (rather than "here's a healing talent, here's a movement talent, here's a defensive cooldown, GO!").

    For me, they just took the easiest and simplest route with regards to balance and STILL managed to get it wrong, robbing a number of specs of their identity in the process. And, though it's not really the point of my post, I do believe this has caused some players to give up, particularly casual players who didn't just read a cookie-cutter spec from an external site and, instead, played with their talents in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    I'm not sure that's actually true, particularly for "casual" (horribly over-used word, I know) players. A lot of the real-life friends I played with in my first guild were definitely casuals. They weren't interested in gearing, or in rep grinds, and barely ran end-game 5mans. Heck, they weren't even that interested in getting to 60! (Although most of them got there eventually.) What they did really like to do was socialize, explore, quest, and craft.
    I enjoyed your post, too.

    To be fair, I think "development" and "freedom" possibly define a casual player as well as anything and both of those have taken a hit, particularly the hammering alts took. I can totally understand why Blizzard wanted to try and make more content for solo toons, but I reckon questing, crafting, exploring and dungeons are all part of a levelling process that has been heavily beaten up, particularly at endgame.

    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    im not going to say why everybody else left, or why blizz is wrong, or w/e. i wall say why i quit. it wasnt over some class balance issue, dailies, lfd, lfr, or any other "major" issue. quite simply my guild folded. raiding was what i enjoyed in the game. my server was all but dead, and i didnt have enough interest to reroll and essentially start over, nor did i want to spend a ton of money to move my toons to another server and hope to get into a guild - a lot of money for a crap shoot as i see it. im sure plenty of people are going to tell me it's my fault, blah blah. fine, whatever. but it's not my job to find something wow can offer me, and pay for the privilege of doing so
    This is why I don't believe for a second that subscriptions are stable on the NA and European realms; I've heard tell of this particular issue many, many times. Now, sure, someone will pop in and remind me that I'm speaking purely from anecdotal evidence and that I can't prove any of that, but there are more ghost-towns masquerading as servers than ever before in Europe, and I reckon a lot of players (casuals particularly, perhaps) lose all interest when they have nobody to play with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  4. #64
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    I was just about as casual as players come -- as in, so casual I didn't even run dungeons -- and I never felt "unengaged" by the game or its content.

    But on Tuesday evening this week, I found myself logged in and staring at the screen; it hit me, after 8 years of playing, that there was no "point" to me playing anymore. There is no end, no final thing to fight to win the game. Not sure why it took me 8 years to realize this. I pulled a "yes, you CAN have my stuff", and gave away all my gold and tradeable items to the first person I saw in Stormwind.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    As far as the new talent system itself, sorry but it sucks. Are you and I looking at the same talent trees? You realize that 90%+ of rogues and warriors basically have the same talents? The fact that Blizzard will need to change it again to even make it work for the next expansion is a sure sign it is fail to begin with.

    Glyphs too... fail (I'm looking at you Glyph of Hoarse Voice).
    Wow, so much subjectivity...are YOU sure we look at the same talent trees? Because the things you stated were 100% true for the old system as well. The only difference here is, that the new System can be made viable with a few number tweaks mostly, since every talent competes for the same function: damage, survivability, support, and so on. The real outliers will get replaced anyhow if tweaks won't help (and already are two Patches into the expansion.)
    The old system put alot more strain on skill and class design, because just stacking new talents who were basically the same thing in disguise over and over again didnt work anymore. Look at the mess of WotLK and how often the end-tier talents needed to be changed, even mechanically.

    Furthermore, the new Blade Flurry is mechanically the exact same spell since ever: uhhh, it now hits four targets instead of two! Wow, BIG DEAL RAGEQUIT INC! I found it awful since its a toggle and not a CD anymore, because that actually impacted fucking Gameplay. You didn't see any Sub Rogues in Vanilla until the Rogue Class Rework...it's Identity was never there to begin with, through Vanilla until Cata it shifted every expansion cycle, the only consistent factor being Prep and Premed...WOW SO UNIQUE! You remember Cloak of Shadow as Subs 31th Talent? I bet you don't.
    The only thing which stayed since the beginning is the faster CP Generation through odd means. I play Sub still, in hopes it will someday become anything not themed around bleeds like effing Ferals, but oh well.

    Bottom Line is, you're kind of late to the party to complain about broad stuff like that. It was this way, and will stay this way. If you find things awful, at least make an effort to describe why. Otherwise its hard to take people like you seriously.

    (and Bandit's Guile?? Really????Lol.)

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    If you find things awful, at least make an effort to describe why. Otherwise its hard to take people like you seriously.
    Why so hostile? I've been playing a rogue since late vanilla, raided in TBC, Wrath, et cetera. Why would it be hard to take seriously? Combat sucks and has for awhile. Also, who cares about when Cloak was a Sub talent? On live, it was ALWAYS baseline as far as I remember. No one cares it was a talent in TBC beta.

    You can argue cookie-cutter builds have always been a problem but that doesn't excuse Blizzard from failing expansion after expansion with the talent trees (since it is still true, largely). Blizzard is a big-boy. They don't need you defending their lazy designs and anyone who has spent any extensive time with the rogue or warrior classes can tell you flat-out what will work and what won't before Blizzard even implements it on the live servers. Over the years, I've found the community being right most of the time.

    Bandit's Guile, yes... it blows. Why not just bake the damage into rogue abilities? It's not like Combat is blowing people up in PvP. It's a dumb, unnecessary, DPS bottle-neck that you can't do anything about 90% of the time and works against you when target switching (unless you have Redirect up).

    Blade Flurry. The toggle was what I was primarily talking about, though the change to hitting more targets certainly killed it off. How many times in PvP or PvE do you have 5 mobs standing next to each other where you can build up your rotation and actually make good use of it? Um, next to never?

    Killing Spree. The only DPS cooldown in the game that will flat-out kill you on some encounters. Also, make sure you're really low on Energy before popping it, never pop it during Bloodlust, etc. Killing Spree was fine in Wrath but changes to the game have only served to make it worse and worse. At least it's fun, I guess.

    Adrenaline Rush. Taking BF's attack speed increase and baking it into Adrenaline Rush, plus haste affecting Energy regen and Main Gauche made Arenaline Rush feel less like a DPS cooldown and more like a babysitting job. I really wish I could run a poll and see how many people prefer the new Combat over how it was in Wrath. Probably not many (like an 80/20 split, I'd guess).

    So... you're telling me the new talent trees are SO MUCH BETTER despite a decent chunk of the talents in the new trees being nothing more than what were BASELINE abilities? Combat Readiness, Anticipation (via Remorselessness, kind of), Deadly Throw. Wow, look at all of the people that take Nightstalker... it's such an awesome talent! Oh, Burst of Speed is so new and original! It's the exact same thing as the old Improved Sprint except it costs Energy instead of having a CD. Too bad no one takes it because it's competing with Shadowstep...

    You can stop defending Blizzard. They've had more than enough time to get their shit together. Different doesn't mean better, especially not when the outcome is essentially the exact same thing (still cookie-cutter builds & a lot of useless talents). I think the consistently low rogue pop and rampant complaining about how bad rogues "feel" now is proof alone but whatever, feel free to defend something that is obviously not working.
    Last edited by xixixviixiiii; 2013-05-10 at 08:37 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Why so hostile? I've been playing a rogue since late vanilla, raided in TBC, Wrath, et cetera. Why would it be hard to take seriously? Combat sucks and has for awhile. Also, who cares about when Cloak was a Sub talent? On live, it was ALWAYS baseline as far as I remember. No one cares it was a talent in TBC beta.
    Hostile? Youre throwing around the big buzzwords here. After Cloak came Shadowstep. And no, that wasn't Beta.

    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    You can argue cookie-cutter builds have always been a problem but that doesn't excuse Blizzard from failing expansion after expansion with the talent trees (since it is still true, largely). Blizzard is a big-boy. They don't need you defending their lazy designs and anyone who has spent any extensive time with the rogue or warrior classes can tell you flat-out what will work and what won't before Blizzard even implements it on the live servers. Over the years, I've found the community being right most of the time.
    Im not defending lazy designs, i just am amuzed about your lack of knowledge about the history of the game, despite stating you played in Vanilla.
    Lazy is probably the most over- and misused word here on the forums...also, flat-out "working" isnt enough. Like 5.2 Rogues, most changes were community driven....oh look, were OP as shit. I've found the community to be mostly misguided, because they have an inherent agenda to push their own playstyle the most while ignoring all others. Especially the PvP Crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Bandit's Guile, yes... it blows. Why not just bake the damage into rogue abilities? It's not like Combat is blowing people up in PvP. It's a dumb, unnecessary, DPS bottle-neck that you can't do anything about 90% of the time and works against you when target switching (unless you have Redirect up).
    Again, the PvP. Bandit's Guile- Management is atm the only thing which rewards DPS assome sort of skill-cap in all that button-mashing. And FYI, It stacks on the Rogue since MoP.

    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Blade Flurry. The toggle was what I was primarily talking about, though the change to hitting more targets certainly killed it off. How many times in PvP or PvE do you have 5 mobs standing next to each other where you can build up your rotation and actually make good use of it? Um, next to never?
    At this point your just making shit up. 4 Mobs together in PvE? That is a 100% for nearly ALL Dungeon or Scenario Content, and 30% of Raid Content is 2 Targets upwarts. On two targets, its still a huge DPS Gain. Its just not broken as shit. Also, RBG AoE Fuckfests. Too bad Sub is preferred for Control.


    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Killing Spree. The only DPS cooldown in the game that will flat-out kill you on some encounters. Also, make sure you're really low on Energy before popping it, never pop it during Bloodlust, etc. Killing Spree was fine in Wrath but changes to the game have only served to make it worse and worse. At least it's fun, I guess.
    One of the few DPS Cooldowns which at least require some thought. I would like to give more Skills drawbacks like that to offset the power they have. And you also can pop it with Full Energy, its just not optimal to do so: thats true for like half the DPS CD's in the game. Optimize Resource before usage. No-Brainer.


    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    Adrenaline Rush. Taking BF's attack speed increase and baking it into Adrenaline Rush, plus haste affecting Energy regen and Main Gauche made Arenaline Rush feel less like a DPS cooldown and more like a babysitting job. I really wish I could run a poll and see how many people prefer the new Combat over how it was in Wrath. Probably not many (like an 80/20 split, I'd guess).
    Wrath was actually the Expansion where i wanted to quit my Rogue and WoW, but rerolled instead. One more expansion of that Borefest in PvE would've killed my sanity.


    Quote Originally Posted by xixixviixiiii View Post
    So... you're telling me the new talent trees are SO MUCH BETTER despite a decent chunk of the talents in the new trees being nothing more than what were BASELINE abilities? Combat Readiness, Anticipation (via Remorselessness, kind of), Deadly Throw. Wow, look at all of the people that take Nightstalker... it's such an awesome talent! Oh, Burst of Speed is so new and original! It's the exact same thing as the old Improved Sprint except it costs Energy instead of having a CD. Too bad no one takes it because it's competing with Shadowstep...

    You can stop defending Blizzard. They've had more than enough time to get their shit together. Different doesn't mean better, especially not when the outcome is essentially the exact same thing (still cookie-cutter builds & a lot of useless talents). I think the consistently low rogue pop and rampant complaining about how bad rogues "feel" now is proof alone but whatever, feel free to defend something that is obviously not working.
    I never said that Rogue Talents are good, stop putting that in my mouth (also, defending, lol). Im quite dissatisfied with them, with my Rogue. But that's not the Systems fault, but the Aftermath from LK and Cata Domination. Instead of taking all of our toys away from our base-kit, they handled it with Talents. Our Kit is still too good in my opinion (same with Mages). Yeah, hoping for a Rework next Expansion. I think they struggle with Pure DPS Classes, since it's easier to fill the Tree for Hybrids. If you want to see a good Tree, take a look at Locks. Still standing that the new System is better than the old regarding Flexibility and Long-Term Development. (System =/= Individual Talents)
    Last edited by Nouk; 2013-05-10 at 10:30 PM.

  8. #68
    Obviously I don't know why a lot of people quit, but I can tell you why I did and why a lot of my guildmates did.

    1. Dailies
    2. Low server population
    3. Disinterest in the first 3 raids (some of us did like HoF though)
    4. People just decided to quit normals and be 100% LFR which killed our fillers for our raid roster
    5. Horrible alt expansion

    There were a few things I did like, but it wasn't enough to keep my interest:
    1. World rare mobs (Glorious) achievement
    2. Hidden BoA objects (the Relic Hunter) achievement
    3. World lore scrolls for lore nerds like myself (Lorewalkers rep stuff)
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

  9. #69
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Obviously I don't know why a lot of people quit, but I can tell you why I did and why a lot of my guildmates did.

    1. Dailies
    2. Low server population
    3. Disinterest in the first 3 raids (some of us did like HoF though)
    4. People just decided to quit normals and be 100% LFR which killed our fillers for our raid roster
    5. Horrible alt expansion
    All valid complaints in my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  10. #70
    Bliz said most of the subscription loss cane from Asia, but a significant loss still came from the west as well. MOP had too much grind for a game as old as wow is. Just going from my guild, everyone was excited about the expansion and loved getting to level 90, but the dailies got overwhelming. When 5.1 dropped, there was a collective groan about another faction and set of dailies. Same with 5.2. technically dailies weren't mandatory, but that opinion minimized the sense of accomplishment for a lot of players, especially casual ones that didn't raid.

    I do agree with the OP's point about class individuality being taken away. The only unique class ability left is reincarnation.

  11. #71
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    Super long post inc. TLDR at bottom if you're just after main points.

    Just want to say good on ya OP for making this post. It's always nice to see more observations to the state of the game. I don't really think that Norma/Heroic raiding being difficult is the MAIN cause for subscription loss but it could be another contributing factor. Normal modes were all the game had back in BC and Classic, and they were pretty damn savage. But the game had a tremendous rise in popularity over the course of these two time periods and well into Wotlk in spite of the fact that content was quite literally smashing casual guilds in the face. There will no doubt be people who jump on this and say that WoW was only growing because there wasn't a "big market of mmos" or "the game was newer" etc etc. I agree with that, but I do place a fair bit of stock in the value of the "monumental challenge" that comes with the mmo genre.

    The fact that I never reached Grand Marshall, never raided in Naxx, never killed Kil'jaeden, etc never once deterred me from playing WoW because it convinced me that "I didn't have enough time for it". Quite the opposite, when I found a raiding guild (a misfit band of big guild dropouts who couldn't navigate around Karazhan) I was at my happiest raiding, even when we were getting smashed in the face by Nightbane. Sure I had lots of times where I wish I could have been in a top end guild, but I recognized that I wasn't there because I still needed to get better, rather than concluding Blizz made content too hard.

    I believe that WoW's problems are much more complex and have existed in the game as early as Wotlk and have been slowly growing like a parasitic disease. The leveling process, the slow death of group questing, and the meteoric drop in the difficulty of 5 man content have been sawing away at WoW's throat like a nail file, not doing noticeable damage at a glance, but chipping away day by day for years.

    Leveling gets easier every expansion, and then gets easier a SECOND time mid expansion without fail. In Wrath the last 5 man group quests fizzled out and gave way to cata and mists where the whole leveling journey, including the old world, is now an entirely solo affair. This is wrong in my eyes. WoW is a massive multiplayer online role playing game, you play roles in a huge world with other people. This isn't the story of how you save the world by shanking a dozen murlocs, it's a world where your efforts are part of a team's, that becomes far more incredible than anything you could have accomplished yourself.

    What does this leveling model teach new players? In classic, you learned how to make friends, you HAD to just to survive or leveling was a brutal and unfun experience. Players who went solo (like me) took MONTHS to level even with a few hours a day and usually went on to attempt to make a name for themselves in pvp, only to discover they COULDN'T because even that was a massive team effort. This mentality wavered in TBC but was still much more prevalent there than current WoW in which, with the exception of X-realm bullshit, you often wouldn't even so much as SEE other players questing.

    So what does WoW teach us in MoP? Questing is a right joke, without even considering alts, new players can level up at an astounding rate, reaching level 10 in a mere hour and a half of flailing your arms wildly shooting wolves and hapless bandits that can't even so much as wield a weapon. From then on your talents are shoved straight up your nose, immediately unlocking monstrous powers that let you effectively one shot every mob for a full two levels (god penance you glorious bastard, you made leveling a priest possible even for my lazy ass). We learn that every other player is just a nameless asshole stealing our xp, mob kills, and resource nodes, quests are just exp with custom tailored upgrades that we just slap onto our body with some tape "DUR BOOT GO ON HEAD" style and dungeons, oh dungeons...

    5 Man content is perhaps the greatest offender to the infection of the player skill lifeline. MoP 5 man dungeon queues for DPS, "I want to afk and get tons of exp and loot", Healers "smite smite smite smite smite smite smite", Tank "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH". And believe it or not put 5 of those together and the dungeon WILL get cleared, it's downright insulting to anyone who's run classic scholo pre 60 while wearing greens. Rattlegore would bend you over and do you from behind roguestyle if you were bad and he would ensure that you REMEMBERED that you were bad. And before people go off about the nostalgia goggles (TM) or whatever on old content, no, my problem is NOT that newer content is easy, my problem is that it delivers a message. You DON'T have to CARE about your ROLE anymore to clear the very content that TEACHES you about your role.

    The OP referenced Mike Preach, his youtube videos are very interesting to watch, and his discussion on the decline of Tank skill in particular and I for one believe without a doubt, that the cause is the leveling and dungeon design first implemented in mid Wrath. Even then, while subscriptions were STILL rising, the overall skill of the playerbase was starting to decay as older players moved on from WoW and new ones filled the gaps but were never taught the very foundations of a Role playing game. But it's not just tanks, the whole of WoW is already afflicted by this change of mentality. Players are convinced that gear should be their right, that content SHOULD be easy, just queue for any random lfr and I would bet that at least someone in that raid will either A) complain they got gold instead of loot or B) rage over a wipe. In only one of the 15 LFR sets I've cleared this week did I encounter a raid that was filled with players that did not fit this description. In the end, the problem is no longer that content is hard, it's that the player base has learned it can defeat content by having blizz remake it in a weaker form so anyone can beat it.

    It's really sad, because as I continue to enjoy raiding in MoP with a close knit band of comrades as a low-end 10 man team I know that there are going to be thousands of guilds forming up of players filled with this poisoned mindset and will ultimately abandon the Normal/Heroic raider's quest, not because content is too hard, but because they don't want to improve. Why bother improving when Blizz will just make LFR easy enough for you to faceroll through it? Many of these players will have the innate skill to become great raiders, but they just won't get a chance to realize it because the damage to their mmo experience will already have been done. You can't join a strong endgame guild that can teach you the tricks to mastering your class without a history of raiding well in advance, a catch 22 that only further devastates the community because the existing guilds have grown so defensive when recruiting in order to avoid those who are inept but feel entitled. And when the strongest guilds throw in the towel because they just can't recruit any more players from this new player pool, the community as a whole loses more players who chase the big dreams of world first, the players we remember standing next to in Ironforge and Orgrimmar and saying to ourselves "Damn, I want to be like that guy". The mystique of the next big horizon is NOT something that an mmorpg loses because it gets old. It just becomes impossible to appreciate it when the horizon is placed so close that anyone can reach it.

    I've ranted for WAY too long so

    TLDR

    WoW has become a game that no longer identifies itself as an mmorpg to new players. It is an entirely solo game from 1-89 where it's laughably easy from ANY video game standard much less mmo standards. Then at 90 it slams you with a sack of bricks the instant you want to do competitive pvp OR pve by demanding that you know your class inside and out. The poison is that the incentive to get better, the difficulty of quests and the tremendous distance to the horizon of endgame, are all but gone as leveling is a cakewalk and LFR spoon feeds each new gear installation to every player for no effort. It's a sad state of affairs, made all the worse by the fact that there is all but nothing we can do about it.
    Last edited by Tsuna; 2013-05-11 at 01:01 PM.
    Naftc, "Hunters are the cheapest class in game and when played right are more deadly than a train plowing through a field of bunnies covered in napalm"

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    Nonsense. There's far more choice now. Under the old design, people just copied a cookie-cutter spec off the internet (Elitist Jerks or Simcraft) where you might have 3 points to allocate as you like.

    Now, sites like Elitist Jerks or Simcraft don't even recommend talent choices for most tiers. Now you have a legitimate choice.
    This is total bull. During Vanilla and BC, only some talents were required for raiding. And most people didn't get them from either of those sites! We went to the forums normally.

    And there are still "performance enhancing" talents, which means "take them or suck b*lls like a noob".

    @the OP: I completely agree with all of your points. While I do enjoy LFR (I like to hop between my 90's and my baby alts), it's become more annoying and lazier than ever (even more so than the DW fight)!

  13. #73
    My biggest 2 issues with this expansion was that heroics were actually a prerequisite to LFR when they are the one aspect of the game I don't enjoy thus previously joined LFR in a mix of gear obtained from a mix of pvp/reps snd Ah purchases.

    That little hindrance kept me from having 3+ alts running lfr weekly.
    But yeah Mists biggest problem is the amount of hoops you have to jump through with each and every toon/alt in order to get a high enough ilvl for even lfr.

    I mean we can generally agree that Lfr is pretty dam easy with even the minimum gear requirements that a group of 25 players in nothing but pvp gear could and should still be able to blow right through it if they were even semi organized.

  14. #74
    The thing about talents is that 90% of the playerbase never visited sites or forums to see how they should spec. They just picked what they thought felt good, and boy was it awesome to have such a deep talent tree as in WotLK, feeling like you could make your character really powerful and progressed.

    And that was exactly the problem. 90% of the playerbase got griefed by 10% of the more active dedicated playerbase because they DID NOT copy their talents from EJ forums or were not running the 100% perfect talent build.

    Thus Blizzard started to help them. First by shrinking the talent trees in Cata ... and finally by removing talent trees in MoP and making all choices pretty gimmicky so technically nobody could get harassed for picking awful specs anymore.

    Didn't work though. Even my gf who plays the game very casually and barely ever plays video games, (WoW is about the only one she ever played) ... felt disappointed at the talent tree revamp of MoP. Felt like choice and the fun of leveling and slowly building your character point by point was taken away from her.

    So yeh, my bet is that there are people from casual to hardcore that detest the new 'too streamlined' talent choices.
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    The thing about talents is that 90% of the playerbase never visited sites or forums to see how they should spec. They just picked what they thought felt good, and boy was it awesome to have such a deep talent tree as in WotLK, feeling like you could make your character really powerful and progressed.

    And that was exactly the problem. 90% of the playerbase got griefed by 10% of the more active dedicated playerbase because they DID NOT copy their talents from EJ forums or were not running the 100% perfect talent build.

    Thus Blizzard started to help them. First by shrinking the talent trees in Cata ... and finally by removing talent trees in MoP and making all choices pretty gimmicky so technically nobody could get harassed for picking awful specs anymore.

    Didn't work though. Even my gf who plays the game very casually and barely ever plays video games, (WoW is about the only one she ever played) ... felt disappointed at the talent tree revamp of MoP. Felt like choice and the fun of leveling and slowly building your character point by point was taken away from her.

    So yeh, my bet is that there are people from casual to hardcore that detest the new 'too streamlined' talent choices.
    A better fix, and the most obvious one, was to make it so that no one could see your talents when they inspected you for gear. Make them 100% private. Why they didn't do that is beyond me. Especially since they labeled what your spec was on your character page.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by darklady View Post
    A better fix, and the most obvious one, was to make it so that no one could see your talents when they inspected you for gear. Make them 100% private. Why they didn't do that is beyond me. Especially since they labeled what your spec was on your character page.
    Not only didn't they do it. They actually did it and threw it away. Up until the armory was introduced (somewhere in early BC, can't remember exactly) you had no way of knowing other players talents. And talent inspection was added after the armory launched. I do believe that was in 2.3.
    Last edited by Kalandros; 2013-05-11 at 03:11 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    Hostile? Youre throwing around the big buzzwords here. After Cloak came Shadowstep. And no, that wasn't Beta.
    I looked this up. Cloak was baseline in patch 2.0.3 (retail BC). Not really sure where you were attempting to go with this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    Im not defending lazy designs, i just am amuzed about your lack of knowledge about the history of the game, despite stating you played in Vanilla.
    Lazy is probably the most over- and misused word here on the forums...also, flat-out "working" isnt enough. Like 5.2 Rogues, most changes were community driven....oh look, were OP as shit. I've found the community to be mostly misguided, because they have an inherent agenda to push their own playstyle the most while ignoring all others. Especially the PvP Crowd.
    Lack of knowledge, huh? How is asking for a viable Sub spec for PvE or Combat for PvP pushing a play style? Working is fine but after this many years reiterating on talent design (even gutting the whole system and starting over), you'd think it should be polished to a blinding shine by now, so yeah, the best word to use, I used-- lazy. Who cares about what is OP and isn't? That stuff goes in cycles. I'm strictly talking about design and how things work mechanically. Are they fun? Combat, no. Not at all. The entire spec needs to be reworked, badly.

    Specifically, I don't even care that much about the specs themselves. People will always gravitate toward the "best" one, even if the gain is neglible. I'm talking about the talents themselves. Nightstalker (sucks), Subterfuge (good for Sub but that's it), Shadow Focus (the clear winner 90% of the time). Next tier, Deadly Throw and Combat Readiness (what used to be baseline abilities) and Nerve Strike. Next tier, Elusiveness (awesome talent but boring), Cheat Death, Leeching Poison (awesome talent but crap for PvP). Next tier, Cloak and Dagger (another talent only Sub takes), Shadowstep (easily the best talent in the whole rogue tree), Burst of Speed (Improved Sprint ripoff / replacement that looks and sounds the same as Sprint-- lazy), next tier (total garbage for 90%+ of meaningful PvE content) and Prey on the Weak showcases Blizzard's incompetence with the rogue class (10% more damage while Blinded, Gouged or Sapped, seriously?) and the last tier... basically the only one where every talent has a place to shine between everything the game has to offer.

    You don't agree? So realistically, you had what? 3-4 "filler" points in Cataclysm that you could choose? Now you have 2-3 "filler" (aka not optimal choices in either PvP or PvE content-- in other words, actual choice)? So... ... ...We've moved backwards? How is that possible? Why defend this crap?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    Again, the PvP. Bandit's Guile- Management is atm the only thing which rewards DPS assome sort of skill-cap in all that button-mashing. And FYI, It stacks on the Rogue since MoP.
    Why wouldn't PvP matter? Also, there's no skill involved with Bandit's Guile. Like I said, beforehand, maybe but even then, if Redirect was up you used it. If not, whatever. Now, it exists purely as a DPS bottleneck (a spec that does not need a DPS bottleneck) because it works against the spec (Blade Flurry) for PvE and in PvP, Combat has no impact or pressure outside of KS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    At this point your just making shit up. 4 Mobs together in PvE? That is a 100% for nearly ALL Dungeon or Scenario Content, and 30% of Raid Content is 2 Targets upwarts. On two targets, its still a huge DPS Gain. Its just not broken as shit. Also, RBG AoE Fuckfests. Too bad Sub is preferred for Control.
    5. Blade Flurry hits 4 additional enemies, plus you need your current target to copy it from, so 5 mobs. Math. Learn it. With three mobs it starts to be a decent DPS gain but it's a pain to use, plus both and Assassination and Sub have an even better AoE / control kit, so why bother? Simply put, BF sucks now. Regarding skill, a good rogue would run Assassination and Rupture cleave with that many mobs. Also, no one cares about trash. Dungeon content, maybe but not since the BF change went live. Dungeons are so faceroll now you're better off spamming FoK as Assassination. Rogues still have one of the higher ramp-up times and in my raid guild, ToT trash is usually half dead before my rotation is even fully running unless I glyph deadly momentum and we practically chain pull stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    One of the few DPS Cooldowns which at least require some thought. I would like to give more Skills drawbacks like that to offset the power they have. And you also can pop it with Full Energy, its just not optimal to do so: thats true for like half the DPS CD's in the game. Optimize Resource before usage. No-Brainer.
    If by "some thought" you mean, completely unusable on bosses like Garalon, sure. Also, most DPS cooldowns require some thought. Popping Vendetta on a Horridon add probably isn't optimal either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    Wrath was actually the Expansion where i wanted to quit my Rogue and WoW, but rerolled instead. One more expansion of that Borefest in PvE would've killed my sanity.
    Okay? I loved my rogue in Wrath. In BC all I did was DPS, DPS and more DPS and the only viable spec (really) was Combat. In Wrath I actually had some utility (Tricks trading, dispelling enrage from Ragefire in Ruby Sanctum, Deadly Brew snare, et cetera) and depending on the encounter, I could run Assassination or Combat. Now, it's basically always Assassination. Wow, so much improvement!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouk View Post
    I never said that Rogue Talents are good, stop putting that in my mouth (also, defending, lol). Im quite dissatisfied with them, with my Rogue. But that's not the Systems fault, but the Aftermath from LK and Cata Domination. Instead of taking all of our toys away from our base-kit, they handled it with Talents. Our Kit is still too good in my opinion (same with Mages). Yeah, hoping for a Rework next Expansion. I think they struggle with Pure DPS Classes, since it's easier to fill the Tree for Hybrids. If you want to see a good Tree, take a look at Locks. Still standing that the new System is better than the old regarding Flexibility and Long-Term Development. (System =/= Individual Talents)
    Um, no. It is the developers fault. The "system" did not create itself or will itself into existence. And I'm not putting words in your mouth. You were the one who jumped on me for calling the new talent system crap (for some classes-- such as rogue or warrior). Since I first made that post I actually did heroic Jin'rohk with no talents at all-- not even Anticipation, and the difference? Not that big of a deal from our last kill. Mind you, I fully admit I would not want to do that on every boss (or even most) but I attempted it mostly to prove a point. At the point you can kill heroic level bosses with no talents at all, why even bother having a spec? Was it really worth the homogenization?

    Anyway, I don't care enough to argue about it anymore. You're obviously not getting it or seeing it the same way I do. Whatever. That's fine.

  18. #78
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    It is impossible to blame casual engagment when the developers refuse to engage casuals in the first place. What's really to blame are the developers.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #79
    You know its probably the best reason I seen for the downfall. Back in the days of Wrath you could always run with your main guild to do ToC or ICC and then turn around and log on to your alt a day later and find a pug group or ToC. Around the end of Black Wing Decent, I noticed pug groups and even groups looking for a raid fill in were very much non existant on the server i was on.

  20. #80
    Excellent thread. I wish there was a way to make every Blizzard employee read this.

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