Is "casual engagement" really to blame?

[bohapjut]

There's never been more to do - so true, it's what I've always been saying, but somehow I still end up afking in Shrine somehow. I can't even explain that tbh...

just because there's more to do doesnt mean its enjoyable

As for normal/LFR raiding: Back in WotLK I was a casual, but what I somehow only realised recently is that I was actually raiding even then - ICC 4/12 and 6/12 runs were extremely common even in my relatively unpopulated server, both 10 and 25. Even better, I enjoyed it and often did them even on chars that had all the gear there was to get from those bosses. Now, my guild (which is the second best guild on Horde side) got the 3rd boss, Council of Elders, down last week after so much trouble and Tortos is looking even worse. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy progress raiding, but I'd rather have the feeling that I'm actually accomplishing something like I did in those ICC runs. "If I can get 6 bosses down in 2 hours with this group, just imagine what it'll be like once I join a raiding guild!"

Died with cataclysm's hard entry raids and never really revived... due to somem combination of underpopulated servers, difficult normal modes, LFR

[Hyve]

I've just recently quit World of Warcraft, having played for eight years (almost solid, albeit with a few short-term breaks). I didn't want to start a whole new thread, so i'll leave my thoughts on why I left, and maybe they'll spark a few good reasons in others.

1) Focus on DPS.

As someone who only enjoys playing a Healing Class, I dislike the direction the game is going with a lot of the content being tailored to DPS. Blizzard are pouring their efforts now in Heroic Scenarios, something I personally think is a waste of time, as I've not seen much call for the improvement of such a infant system, but more importantly, is because it almost entirely off-limits to Healers.

We've been told that to make the optional content, and get better rewards, you'll need to bring DPS. Now, bringing a Tank & 2 DPS covers all the healing and damage mitigation you'll need. Even Atonement Priests wouldn't make up for the loss of damage for brining them, so they're going to be inaccessible to the majority of Healers.

Secondly, with this point, are Daily Quests. While totally optional, there is no sense in trying to hide the fact, that if there is an effective means of gaining something, we're going to try it. Sadly though, with Healers, Dailies are not efficient or effective. While we can do them, with some help or just taking it much slower, the pace, time and effort required is a royal pain in the arse.

For the first week or two of the new dailies (Vale, Krasang Wilds & Isle) it was fine, plenty of people running it with plenty of desire to do large, AoE pulls, and having a Healer on your back helps make that much safer, and thusly faster!

I personally don't like doing Dailies, and while Pet Battles are fun, it is rather frustrating at times, and I loathe the attitude I've faced in the LFR. So that cuts out, a vast amount of Valor / Reputation sources, purely because of how I wish to play, as a Healer, despite that not being an issue in the past expansions.

2) Nothing Ground-Breaking & New

Scenarios I feel are rather lazy, and pointless to the entire expansion. They open up another avenue of content, but they take away from other areas, such as Raids or Dungeons (As they've said, multiple times). The idea that a smaller team of people can go into a Queue, and defeat PvE content isn't new, it is basically a DPS based LFG and I feel that isn't very ground-breaking.

Challenge Modes, are impressive in their implementation, and I do enjoy them, but their inaccessibility is a pain. Requiring people to fly to the Dungeon was a throw of light to the people wanting to explore the world, and to create a more open world feel. However, a minority of people (I assume) actually participate in Challenge Modes on a regular basis, to warrant such a waste of time.

Combine that with the fact that the community doesn't seem to have taken to them massively, and very few people are open to them, I don't consider it an amazing feat of this expansion.

Pet Battles (as I said above) are fun and cool. But the fact that one miss or dodge makes or breaks a match, isn't skilful or fun. I've gone for several streaks in a row, where my big opener would miss, and I'm screwed. Because of it, nothing I can do will rebalance the fight, as I'm on cooldown for a few rounds, and I'm dead. While certainly fun, the idea of Pet Battles, isn't new or ground-breaking.

3) The not so Legendary, Legendary!

While the idea that we'd have to complete an expansion wide series of quests to complete a Legendary was cool, its implementation so far has been appalling and boring. Legendaries haven't always been super extreme to achieve, either very RNG based, or very time consuming, but overall this expansion tops the worst implementation for me, simply because there is nothing you need to do, to earn it.

You simply run the same Raids you were going to do anyway, and along the way, you just pick up a Legendary. Also, earning a Legendary Gem, only to replace it next patch, was just annoying and seemed like a pain in the ass. I assumed we'd be using that Gem in some way to work on the next step, empowering it to be something more, something better, but now it just rots in my bank.

During Firelands, you had to go out of your way, invest a little more time & money to achieve your Legendary. In Icecrown Citadel, you had to switch how you did things, allowed them to take control of certain mechanics, or be purposefully excluded from them in order for them to meet their criteria. So far, we've just had to get in queue, and hope the bosses are kind enough to drop what we want!

4) Spoiled!

For me, one of the stupidest moves we've seen this expansion, was to tell us, even before it launched, that in the end we'd be fighting in Orgrimmar. Now, we've still got no clue as to what is actually going to happen, and how dramatic it could be, but the surprise return to our homeland, to fend against an unexpected foe was totally ruined.

Garrosh could corrupt Thrall, make him the next Sha, who then resurrects Deathwing, who flies to the Homeland of the Burning Legion, and personally acts as a Stead for the entire crew, while they fire cannons from his back, and all while this is going on, every enemy, friend and force we've ever known are all uprising into a large battle of unimaginably proportion, and it still wouldn't be that cool, because it was all spoiled!

Telling us how it ends, ruins the whole build up and anticipation.

5) Poor Customer Care

I know Ghostcrawler is not the be all and end all of Blizzard. I know he personally doesn't control every aspect of the game, but over the last few years, I've turned from someone prepared to defend him, to someone who is sickened by him.

His attitude (and the attitude of a few other vocal members of the team(s)) is getting more annoying and self-assertive. Rather then taking advice, opinions and views from the community, they tend to ignore it, stating their own personal reasons for it. I'm not talking about the endless "NERF XYZ FFS!" threads, but the reports that Arcane Mages are boring, only to be told: "They're fun, do good DPS and have a lot of manage".

Conclusion:

There are many reasons why I've quit World of Warcraft, but i'm in no doubt that it is an epic game. It has been insanely fun over the years, and I've no doubt that maybe I'll want to return in the future, but I really don't see that happening.

The way in which PvP has been balanced this expansion has been appalling, and while it is bad every time, that doesn't excuse them for their failings. The game overall is no longer fun for me. I'm having to spend a small fortune on Race Changes, Realm Changes, Faction Changes, Name Changes all to just keep it fresh and exciting. I've realised, that my monthly fee, plus the ton extra I throw into my account to just keep a game exciting, is not value for money.

I really hope Blizzard pulls World of Warcraft back. A loss of 1.3 Million Subs still makes them the greatest subscription based MMO, but I fear that if this trend continues, Blizzard will start to lose their dominance in this area.

TL;DR: Go read it!

[markdall]

Holy shit what a well written post. I agree completely. You've said it better than I could.

Yes, what you say did kill one of the two raiding guilds I was in during Cata - about two hours before MOP launched the GL announced that after trying PTR he didn't want to raid MOP and good luck to us all.

I remain in the other raiding guild. We barely managed to clear normal T14 before T15 released. We're doing a little better in ToT, 1/12 heroic which only happened this raid lockout. I used LFR to get my four piece. I don't play any of my alts anymore, and only have one alt leveled to 90, which I no longer play. I don't plan on leveling anybody else up and have decided to quit wow when MOP ends or my raid spot goes away, whichever comes first.

Contrast that with Cata where I had every character at level 85 and geared with all LFR/VP epics. I enjoyed that. I don't enjoy this. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go watch videos for heroic chicken (Ji-Kun) and rewatch the heroic Horridon videos, because we've got a raid scheduled tonight.

Also: LFR is terrible. Not only are people bad at the mechanics, they're jerks. My hobby: Go into LFR, do my very best to top the meters, and then be super nice. Sadly there's usually some heroic(er) geared a-hole from Illidan in there to troll everybody and make them feel like shit.

[Hyve]

Holy shit what a well written post. I agree completely. You've said it better than I could.

Thanks. For a long time I've been thinking of leaving World of Warcraft, and there are many other reasons for me quitting. I agree with what you're saying in part, but sadly the lack of consistently good quality content is getting out of hand for my tastes.

Each expansion of course has its ups and downs, but they're getting out of control, and I dislike it. Cataclysm in Tier 11 was the most fun I've ever had in World of Warcraft, which was swiftly followed by major disappointment. Wrath of the Lich King was the first expansion I got really hardcore into raiding, and that also had far to many positives and negatives, making the whole experience uneven and a rather intolerable roller coaster.

When Cataclysm was drawing to an end, I made a promise to myself, and even told a few friends, that Mists of Pandaria really has to blow me away, and really needs to make up for what Cataclysm did, else I would be quitting World of Warcraft. By the end of Cataclysm, over 80% of my friends and guild mates had quit the game, for various reasons, but almost all stemming from being sick of the failure that was World of Warcraft.

I'm not saying that World of Warcraft is dying, or even bleeding subscriptions purely because of what I know, but Cataclysm was appalling, and Mists of Pandaria hasn't done enough to remedy the utter catastrophe that it was. Sadly, I'm going to stick to my promise.

I've had a really enjoyable time in World of Warcraft, and, I highly doubt any game in my lifetime will come along and replace the utter enjoyment and amazing adventure I had. I grew from a young teenager into a man with this game by my side. I've made friends through it, and some enemies, but sadly, I'd rather leave now while things are a bad, then to continue hoping for the next miracle to occur ...

[Mirishka]

Here's what I think: how many of these 'WoW subs' topics are there going to be?

The game lost some subscribers. We get it. It doesn't take 5+ new topics a day for people to understand this.

You know there are literally like a dozen other non-locked topics about it: you could have just as easily added this to one of them. Good grief.

And yes it was a largely well-written post. But that doesn't change the fact that it is yet another subs topic when there are plenty - too many in fact - subs topics as it is.

[Azrile]

Here is the problem with all the Monday Morning quarterbacking going on. We have basically 1 sentence with very little context. We the community are going to spend a lot of energy trying to apply meaning to those bullets.

What we don't really know what "most of the decline came in China" means. Is that 500K?, 1mil ? 1.2mil ? Can the NA\Euros take what we don't like about the game and apply it to the Chinese ? We can't even seem to agree among ourselves and we're going to try and apply it to a fairly different gaming culture.

So now we're asking what does casual engagement mean to a Chinese player versus a NA\Euro player. Maybe they find all the pet battles\dailies even more boring than we do and they actually quit over instead of just writing forums post about it. We don't know

Nobody mentions that there is a blockbuster free2play game that recently launched in China. The fact that revenues at Blizzard beat expectations is a sure sign that the subscribers that were lost, were mainly the infrequent cyber-cafe players from China. you need to look at the MONEY... not necessarily the subscribers. If WOW had lost 20% of it´s NA/EU subscribers, revenues would have been horrible.

[Osmeric]

Nobody mentions that there is a blockbuster free2play game that recently launched in China. The fact that revenues at Blizzard beat expectations is a sure sign that the subscribers that were lost, were mainly the infrequent cyber-cafe players from China. you need to look at the MONEY... not necessarily the subscribers. If WOW had lost 20% of it´s NA/EU subscribers, revenues would have been horrible.

Online subscription revenue for the quarter (non-GAAP) was down 22% year-on-year.

[Hyve]

And yes it was a largely well-written post. But that doesn't change the fact that it is yet another subs topic when there are plenty - too many in fact - subs topics as it is.

Not quite sure if you're referring to me here, but that is exactly what I did. I didn't wish to create another; "I quit World of Warcraft, and here are my totally legitmate reasons that none of you fools could prove invalid, and I'll also give 90 reasons you should quit also!" thread ...

People discussing the recent fall in World of Warcraft figures will be annoying, and in the past (and you can check my post history) I also have stated that very few people care, and these threads are pointless, but a loss of 1.3 Million isn't a small decline, that is terrible. In the next quarter, I don't forsee (although, I do hope I'm wrong) and increase, and that could take World of Warcraft down to, or below, the 8,000,000 mark.

Simply put, a lot of arguments about how World of Warcraft is still great, that 8,000,000 is the same as it was in The Burning Crusade, or how it is now 8 years old, are actually false and invalid, simply because of those two facts themselves.

The Burning Crusade, if we're all honest, was a mess. Everything from gameplay to design wasn't nearly as impressive as it is today, and yet people are less happy about a game that has apparently progressed over the last few years, then they were back then. The older generation of gamers are moving on, getting on with their lives, and younger and new generations are moving in (No, I am NOT attributing Pandaren to this, I loved the Pandaren idea!).

World of Warcraft has gone through a lot of changes, some of them are completely impossible to revert. I recently levelled a new character, and while much faster then ever before, it was the least rewarding experience I've ever had in World of Warcraft. The new talent system is great for level 90, but when levelling, is gives nothing, you can go 6 - 8 levels without feeling more powerful, or as if you've changed at all.

World of Warcraft has a series of major flaws, flaws that for me, personally, I don't with to continue to fuel with my subscription, and dedicate that amount of time to. Each to their own.

[threads]

Completely agree OP. You managed to sum up exactly what i've been thinking is wrong with the game atm. Playing casually is not fun now.

[Mirishka]

I've just recently quit World of Warcraft, having played for eight years (almost solid, albeit with a few short-term breaks). I didn't want to start a whole new thread, so i'll leave my thoughts on why I left, and maybe they'll spark a few good reasons in others.

1) Focus on DPS.

As someone who only enjoys playing a Healing Class, I dislike the direction the game is going with a lot of the content being tailored to DPS. Blizzard are pouring their efforts now in Heroic Scenarios, something I personally think is a waste of time, as I've not seen much call for the improvement of such a infant system, but more importantly, is because it almost entirely off-limits to Healers.

We've been told that to make the optional content, and get better rewards, you'll need to bring DPS. Now, bringing a Tank & 2 DPS covers all the healing and damage mitigation you'll need. Even Atonement Priests wouldn't make up for the loss of damage for brining them, so they're going to be inaccessible to the majority of Healers.

Secondly, with this point, are Daily Quests. While totally optional, there is no sense in trying to hide the fact, that if there is an effective means of gaining something, we're going to try it. Sadly though, with Healers, Dailies are not efficient or effective. While we can do them, with some help or just taking it much slower, the pace, time and effort required is a royal pain in the arse.

For the first week or two of the new dailies (Vale, Krasang Wilds & Isle) it was fine, plenty of people running it with plenty of desire to do large, AoE pulls, and having a Healer on your back helps make that much safer, and thusly faster!

I personally don't like doing Dailies, and while Pet Battles are fun, it is rather frustrating at times, and I loathe the attitude I've faced in the LFR. So that cuts out, a vast amount of Valor / Reputation sources, purely because of how I wish to play, as a Healer, despite that not being an issue in the past expansions.

2) Nothing Ground-Breaking & New

Scenarios I feel are rather lazy, and pointless to the entire expansion. They open up another avenue of content, but they take away from other areas, such as Raids or Dungeons (As they've said, multiple times). The idea that a smaller team of people can go into a Queue, and defeat PvE content isn't new, it is basically a DPS based LFG and I feel that isn't very ground-breaking.

Challenge Modes, are impressive in their implementation, and I do enjoy them, but their inaccessibility is a pain. Requiring people to fly to the Dungeon was a throw of light to the people wanting to explore the world, and to create a more open world feel. However, a minority of people (I assume) actually participate in Challenge Modes on a regular basis, to warrant such a waste of time.

Combine that with the fact that the community doesn't seem to have taken to them massively, and very few people are open to them, I don't consider it an amazing feat of this expansion.

Pet Battles (as I said above) are fun and cool. But the fact that one miss or dodge makes or breaks a match, isn't skilful or fun. I've gone for several streaks in a row, where my big opener would miss, and I'm screwed. Because of it, nothing I can do will rebalance the fight, as I'm on cooldown for a few rounds, and I'm dead. While certainly fun, the idea of Pet Battles, isn't new or ground-breaking.

3) The not so Legendary, Legendary!

While the idea that we'd have to complete an expansion wide series of quests to complete a Legendary was cool, its implementation so far has been appalling and boring. Legendaries haven't always been super extreme to achieve, either very RNG based, or very time consuming, but overall this expansion tops the worst implementation for me, simply because there is nothing you need to do, to earn it.

You simply run the same Raids you were going to do anyway, and along the way, you just pick up a Legendary. Also, earning a Legendary Gem, only to replace it next patch, was just annoying and seemed like a pain in the ass. I assumed we'd be using that Gem in some way to work on the next step, empowering it to be something more, something better, but now it just rots in my bank.

During Firelands, you had to go out of your way, invest a little more time & money to achieve your Legendary. In Icecrown Citadel, you had to switch how you did things, allowed them to take control of certain mechanics, or be purposefully excluded from them in order for them to meet their criteria. So far, we've just had to get in queue, and hope the bosses are kind enough to drop what we want!

4) Spoiled!

For me, one of the stupidest moves we've seen this expansion, was to tell us, even before it launched, that in the end we'd be fighting in Orgrimmar. Now, we've still got no clue as to what is actually going to happen, and how dramatic it could be, but the surprise return to our homeland, to fend against an unexpected foe was totally ruined.

Garrosh could corrupt Thrall, make him the next Sha, who then resurrects Deathwing, who flies to the Homeland of the Burning Legion, and personally acts as a Stead for the entire crew, while they fire cannons from his back, and all while this is going on, every enemy, friend and force we've ever known are all uprising into a large battle of unimaginably proportion, and it still wouldn't be that cool, because it was all spoiled!

Telling us how it ends, ruins the whole build up and anticipation.

5) Poor Customer Care

I know Ghostcrawler is not the be all and end all of Blizzard. I know he personally doesn't control every aspect of the game, but over the last few years, I've turned from someone prepared to defend him, to someone who is sickened by him.

His attitude (and the attitude of a few other vocal members of the team(s)) is getting more annoying and self-assertive. Rather then taking advice, opinions and views from the community, they tend to ignore it, stating their own personal reasons for it. I'm not talking about the endless "NERF XYZ FFS!" threads, but the reports that Arcane Mages are boring, only to be told: "They're fun, do good DPS and have a lot of manage".

Conclusion:

There are many reasons why I've quit World of Warcraft, but i'm in no doubt that it is an epic game. It has been insanely fun over the years, and I've no doubt that maybe I'll want to return in the future, but I really don't see that happening.

The way in which PvP has been balanced this expansion has been appalling, and while it is bad every time, that doesn't excuse them for their failings. The game overall is no longer fun for me. I'm having to spend a small fortune on Race Changes, Realm Changes, Faction Changes, Name Changes all to just keep it fresh and exciting. I've realised, that my monthly fee, plus the ton extra I throw into my account to just keep a game exciting, is not value for money.

I really hope Blizzard pulls World of Warcraft back. A loss of 1.3 Million Subs still makes them the greatest subscription based MMO, but I fear that if this trend continues, Blizzard will start to lose their dominance in this area.

TL;DR: Go read it!

Read this post a couple of times and wanted to offer some thoughts.

Dailies and Healing:

You talk about doing dailies as a healer, which is a valid concern: I can get how that could be a pain, a slow and tedious pain. But the game has dual spec for a reason. Switch to shadow/ret/whatever and melt through your dailies, you can happily heal every thing else. Dps specs are the fastest for dailies: refusing to use a spec which optimizes the solo aspects of your playtime is your fault, not the fault of the game.

Spoilers:

No offense but this complaint is just dumb. We've ALWAYS KNOWN what the bigbad of a given expansion would be. BC, Wrath, Cataclysm all made NO secrets of the fact that you were working your way toward Illidan/Kiljaeden, Arthas and Deathwing. There was NO mystery other than the journey to those destinations. Mists is no different: Blizz announced that Garrosh was the end boss of Mists because people were like OMG QQ THIS EXPANSHUN DOESNT HAVE A FINAL BOSS WTF BLIZZ.

Legendaries:

How was grinding Firelands and Dragon Soul for legendary gems/etc really any better? Easy answer: it isn't. In Mists we get rewards along the way, like the sha-touched gem (replaced too soon, I agree with that), the meta, extra sockets for our weapons, upcoming ilevel 600 cloaks, and eventually weapons. And no, contrary to what you said, it is not just 'run raids and get drops' - we've had to work on reputation with the BP, do PvP stuff, kill outdoor bosses, etc etc. It is more than you give it credit for.

Most importantly, we all get to work on this. There is no 'this is the rogue legendary' or the 'hunter legendary' that leaves every other class scratching their head wondering when their class/role gets their turn. That in and of itself is an improvement, IMO.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying its the best possible implementation, but at least it feels like we're working toward/building up to something major at the end. As opposed to 'MAN I HOPE THE MH GLAIVE DROPS' or the endless grind of Firelands/Dragon Soul.

Nothing new:

Yeah, nothing new. Just new art, sound, lore, quests, raids, dungeons, and features. People bitch that they want challenging content so we got super-hard challenge mode dungeons. The rewards are prestige-based (mount/mog armor) so compared to other content, few seem to run them. We also get scenarios (btw, you are wrong. They do not 'compete' with dungeons, development time-wise, raids do) - some of which are kinda dull, others more interesting and clearly different from dungeons.

Pet Battles are hugely popular regardless of what you think of them: the majority of players do them to some extent or another, and pet AH sales on my server are through the roof accordingly.

GC:

Blaming GC for WoW's troubles is the go-to knee jerk reaction and has been for a while. Frankly I'm amazed they listen to us as much as they do (and there is a big list of shit they've changed or modified/updated/improved based on our feedback whether you want to accept that or not).

And besides, why on earth should Blizzard listen to this fickle-assed, whining and self-entitled player base any more than it does already? Seriously why? Everyone wants to be overpowered, no one wants to get nerfed, and the moment we get the VERY THINGS we ask for, we pull a 180 and bitch about it! Thousands upon thousands of players asked for playable Pandaren - they were the single most requested addition to World of Warcraft - Blizz gives them to us and what do we do?

LOL BLIZZ KUNGFU PANDA EXPANSION U FAIL HAHAHAHA KIDDY GAME NOW MIGHT AS WELL ADD MY LITTLE PONY TOO ROFLMAO

TONS of people asked them for heroic versions of classic dungeons, we not only get them but full revamps, new bosses/drops and lore updates and how do we thank them?

OMG BLIZZ U LAZY RECYCLING BASTARDS LRN2MAKE NEW CONTENT MKAY THX LOL STOP COPYPASTING UR CRAPPY OLD DUNGEONS

Another very common request was more to do at level cap, more ways to 'progress our characters' and not sit around in a city all day... Blizz gives us dailies that actually lead to meaningful rewards, pet battles, scenarios, extra chances at loot, and what's the reaction of the 'vocal' playerbase?

OMG WTF I HATE DAILIES I NEVER GET LOOT IN RAID FINDER I HATE REPUTATION GRINDS I HATE EVERYTHING THAT WASN'T IN CLASSIC WOW THEM WAS THE GOOD OLD DAYS WOW IS DAILYPANDACRAFT NOW

So yeah, if I was in a position of power at Blizz, I'd drown the vast majority of 'feedback' out too. It's Blizzard's attitude which annoys and disgusts you: I personally find the hissy-fits and self-entitled tantrums of players who think they can design a better game than Blizzard (hint: you can't) more obnoxious by far than anything Blizz has ever done or said.

(not referring to you specifically, Hyve, but in general)

PvP:

I don't PvP and so I don't have some intensely annoyed argument for you there. They do seem to struggle with balancing the game, but I doubt there is an MMO out there (at least a WoW/TOR-scale 'legit' MMO) that doesn't have that problem on some level or another. Its a job I wouldn't want, that's for sure.

[Hyve]

Dailies and Healing:

You talk about doing dailies as a healer, which is a valid concern: I can get how that could be a pain, a slow and tedious pain. But the game has dual spec for a reason. Switch to shadow/ret/whatever and melt through your dailies, you can happily heal every thing else. Dps specs are the fastest for dailies: refusing to use a spec which optimizes the solo aspects of your playtime is your fault, not the fault of the game.

I'm not blaming the developers for my own personal preference, but I just hate Damage Dealing. In previous expansions I always levelled up in LFG / Dungeons, but in Mists of Pandaria I was forced to do quests because the experience rewards from Dungeons was pathetic for leveling.

During my time leveling, and many other times on the Beta, I found that I not only hated DPS, but I hated being a Monk DPS. If that is how I choose to play, then fine. I have to accept the consequences of that, but having almost all reputations, and a large amount of Valor & Coins locked away because I dislike DPS, is not great game design.

Spoilers:

No offense but this complaint is just dumb. We've ALWAYS KNOWN what the bigbad of a given expansion would be. BC, Wrath, Cataclysm all made NO secrets of the fact that you were working your way toward Illidan/Kiljaeden, Arthas and Deathwing. There was NO mystery other than the journey to those destinations. Mists is no different: Blizz announced that Garrosh was the end boss of Mists because people were like OMG QQ THIS EXPANSHUN DOESNT HAVE A FINAL BOSS WTF BLIZZ.

We've always known what we're heading for, but this expansion was different. I got excited about not knowing who the big main guy was going to be. It was always nice to know in previous expansions, but being lured into a very Horde vs Alliance and our internal and external issues all causing problems kind of theme was very epic for me.

Legendaries:

How was grinding Firelands and Dragon Soul for legendary gems/etc really any better? Easy answer: it isn't. In Mists we get rewards along the way, like the sha-touched gem (replaced too soon, I agree with that), the meta, extra sockets for our weapons, upcoming ilevel 600 cloaks, and eventually weapons. And no, contrary to what you said, it is not just 'run raids and get drops' - we've had to work on reputation with the BP, do PvP stuff, kill outdoor bosses, etc etc. It is more than you give it credit for.

Most importantly, we all get to work on this. There is no 'this is the rogue legendary' or the 'hunter legendary' that leaves every other class scratching their head wondering when their class/role gets their turn. That in and of itself is an improvement, IMO.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying its the best possible implementation, but at least it feels like we're working toward/building up to something major at the end. As opposed to 'MAN I HOPE THE MH GLAIVE DROPS' or the endless grind of Firelands/Dragon Soul.

I agree with the universal legendary, that is something I overlooked, and I should give it far more credit. However, it doesn't feel like something I want to work towards. Legendaries to me was always about picking a person in your team, someone of real value, that you want to reward, and that you as a guild are going to invest in as a thank you.

Working with them to earn them their shards, defeat bosses in certain ways or overcome extra obstacles was always the fun of them for me. I didn't mention Dragon Soul legendary purely because, it was a mundane collect X of Y, from the whole teams point of view. In Icecrown Citadel, it was about doing certain bosses differently, which changed how you performed as a team on those fights.

Nothing new:

Yeah, nothing new. Just new art, sound, lore, quests, raids, dungeons, and features. People bitch that they want challenging content so we got super-hard challenge mode dungeons. The rewards are prestige-based (mount/mog armor) so compared to other content, few seem to run them. We also get scenarios (btw, you are wrong. They do not 'compete' with dungeons, development time-wise, raids do) - some of which are kinda dull, others more interesting and clearly different from dungeons.

Pet Battles are hugely popular regardless of what you think of them: the majority of players do them to some extent or another, and pet AH sales on my server are through the roof accordingly.

Okay, a few things I want to clear up here:

1) New Lore, Quests, Art, Design etc... is something we see every expansion. It isn't a feature of the expansion, it is a requirement. A new ground-breaking feature for the LFG, LFR, etc...

2) Challenge Modes are not super hard. Going for the worlds, realm, regions best times is, but that again is a minority of people. Besides, I've not complained about their difficulty, just their inaccessibility. Having to fly there is a good idea, but just seems silly when I can teleport there in a weaker mode. Making people fly there is just not doing anything, and the community (in my personal experience) hasn't taken to them as much as I thought and hoped they would!

3) Blizzard have said plenty of times, that Dungeons & Raids compete on the same level for resources, such as Time, Money & Art. Scenarios don't, so for the same time it takes to develop a raid boss, or a dungeon, or something, they can pump out more scenarios. I find them boring, mundane and pathetic. They're just one large AoE fest that isn't incorporating of Healers in their new version, Heroic Scenarios.

GC:

Blaming GC for WoW's troubles is the go-to knee jerk reaction and has been for a while. Frankly I'm amazed they listen to us as much as they do (and there is a big list of shit they've changed or modified/updated/improved based on our feedback whether you want to accept that or not).

And besides, why on earth should Blizzard listen to this fickle-assed, whining and self-entitled player base any more than it does already? Seriously why? Everyone wants to be overpowered, no one wants to get nerfed, and the moment we get the VERY THINGS we ask for, we pull a 180 and bitch about it! Thousands upon thousands of players asked for playable Pandaren - they were the single most requested addition to World of Warcraft - Blizz gives them to us and what do we do?

Okay, this is where you're starting to lose a serious amount of credibility. I'm not coming to the table crying and complaining, nor am I blaming Ghostcrawler for the faults in the game. I mentioned him because he is one of the more vocal members of the team, and some of his comments are downright stupid and ridiculous.

Also, your comment about not bothering to listen to me, for the various reasons, is again, misinformed. I'm not screaming for my class to be buffed, others to be nerfed, I've always accepted the game at whatever level it has been produced to, but the PvP imbalance isn't because of a certain class needs to be buffed or nerfed, but because every 2 years Blizzard almost changes all of the gameplay, all of the way in which it works, rather then find a much more even and solid ground, and make small subtle changes over months.

LOL BLIZZ KUNGFU PANDA EXPANSION U FAIL HAHAHAHA KIDDY GAME NOW MIGHT AS WELL ADD MY LITTLE PONY TOO ROFLMAO

Again, failing to read my post. I was all for Mists of Pandaria, I played a Pandaren Monk. From Day #1, I've loved them.

TONS of people asked them for heroic versions of classic dungeons, we not only get them but full revamps, new bosses/drops and lore updates and how do we thank them?

OMG BLIZZ U LAZY RECYCLING BASTARDS LRN2MAKE NEW CONTENT MKAY THX LOL STOP COPYPASTING UR CRAPPY OLD DUNGEONS

Same again, I've never once screamed about rehashed content. I quite liked a few remakes, although I felt the Zul'aman remake was rather lack-luster compared to Zul'gurub. I know why they're redoing older content, and I agree with the,.

Another very common request was more to do at level cap, more ways to 'progress our characters' and not sit around in a city all day... Blizz gives us dailies that actually lead to meaningful rewards, pet battles, scenarios, extra chances at loot, and what's the reaction of the 'vocal' playerbase?

OMG WTF I HATE DAILIES I NEVER GET LOOT IN RAID FINDER I HATE REPUTATION GRINDS I HATE EVERYTHING THAT WASN'T IN CLASSIC WOW THEM WAS THE GOOD OLD DAYS WOW IS DAILYPANDACRAFT NOW

Adding more at the level cap, doesn't mean they have to add in the same repetitive dailies as part of a requirement to raiding for the majority of people. Despite what people say, if doing dailies gets you coins, valor and reputation, all things that improve your ability to raid dramatically, then you need to do it.

Sure, you can skip it, and I did after a after weeks of trying to do them on my own as a Healer, but other people started gearing ahead of me, and meant I was being left out in the dust.

So yeah, if I was in a position of power at Blizz, I'd drown the vast majority of 'feedback' out too. It's Blizzard's attitude which annoys and disgusts you: I personally find the hissy-fits and self-entitled tantrums of players who think they can design a better game than Blizzard (hint: you can't) more obnoxious by far than anything Blizz has ever done or said.

(not referring to you specifically, Hyve, but in general)

I get what you're saying, the majority of these posts are childish, stupid and filled with misinformed information. I was hoping that if you read mine, you'd see it was filled with disappointment, but also praise. I've loved playing World of Warcraft, but I just no longer feel attached to it as I have in the past, because of the issues above.

You don't have the share my concerns and issues, we're all different. I don't expect Blizzard to tailor their game to me either, so I'm doing the simple thing, of leaving when I don't enjoy it anymore.

PvP:

I don't PvP and so I don't have some intensely annoyed argument for you there. They do seem to struggle with balancing the game, but I doubt there is an MMO out there (at least a WoW/TOR-scale 'legit' MMO) that doesn't have that problem on some level or another. Its a job I wouldn't want, that's for sure.

All PvP in MMOs is imbalanced, but World of Warcraft is a total mess and a disaster at the moment. They've got massive flaws in their system, they make changes that mathematically don't work, yet they push them through anyway, only to recall that decision a few days, weeks or months later in a Hotfix or Patch.

Personally, not only in PvP, but across the board, their game has gotten sloppier over the last eight years, when you take it in account with the amount it could've moved on. Games are meant to progress, but their current model is making them decline.

[Tornainbow]

Is the OP on the WoW forums anywhere?

I'd like to repost it if not (full credit given of course)

[TirielWoW]

OP, this is a great topic you've made. You've touched on several things that I've noticed, but couldn't quite put into words. I hope that the Devs are at least listening.

[Pua]

Is the OP on the WoW forums anywhere?

I'd like to repost it if not (full credit given of course)

If you're in NA, feel free - I don't mind.

However, it was posted on the European forums and was locked. Go figure.

[kilj]

Honestly who cares... The size of these posts are insane go outside instead of writing essays about a video game.

[Hyve]

Honestly who cares... The size of these posts are insane go outside instead of writing essays about a video game.

Yeh, I know right! Wanting to have a clear and descriptive discussion about a topic often marred in childish reasoning and abusive language, on a discussion board about World of Warcraft is just plain pathetic.

Clearly, no-one in this thread has any sort of social life. We should all be ashamed!

[Deleted]

This thread focuses on casual players, when the majority of sub loss has been from China - A part of the world where gamers love a hardcore experience.

I think its too easy nowadays to get what you want quite fast, with a small amount of luck involved. The path to gear has never been so clear either, but the progression path, LFR, is wrong.

We've been conditioned in the past few years into getting exactly what we want at the press of a button, its been destructive to a game like WoW.

[Tyrionlol]

Play Darkfall:Unholy Wars instead.

[Glorious Leader]

This thread focuses on casual players, when the majority of sub loss has been from China - A part of the world where gamers love a hardcore experience.

I think its too easy nowadays to get what you want quite fast, with a small amount of luck involved. The path to gear has never been so clear either, but the progression path, LFR, is wrong.

We've been conditioned in the past few years into getting exactly what we want at the press of a button, its been destructive to a game like WoW.

The majority could be 51% for all you know. In fact IIRC they don't even say majority, they just say most. Without an actual NUMBER behind that the terms "majority" and "most" are semantically meaningless. They have problems in the west to.

Small amount of luck is a clever euphamism. The reality is that if you want to get anything done in any reasonable fashion (i.e get some fat epics on your toon at a decent rate of progression) it's all about fucking luck. Lucky enough to get an lfr group that isn't brain dead, lucky to actually see a winning roll from the boss, or lucky enough to be able to even FINISH your lfr group in a reasonable about of time. That's exactly why role progression has to be implemented asap and the developers are implementing it asap. Every other path to gear in this game is extremely time consuming for a player (and so is LFR fyi it's just the least time consuming) so players run LFR and get jack shit for it and are naturally frustrated. The path to gear has not been clearer than before, hell they had to write a blog to tell players where to go. It was much clearer in the past when it was Run Dungeon. Buy gear. No blog needed. NO roll protection needed.

On the whole it's EXTREMELY patronizing to tell players "look you've had it to good and it's made you spoiled rotten" as if their children who need to be told what's what by people on forums or worse daddy developer.

[Deleted]

I'd say "most" means "majority" - Though it is true that it could be 50.1% , still, that's 750k Chinese subscriptions possibly.

Personally, i've never had such a terrible experience where the time spent to complete has been so severe to ruin my experience. If a wipe occurs, the players who desire completely clean runs where mistakes are impossible will quit and they will be replaced by competent players and the boss goes down with the determination buff.

You need to define "reasonable" amount of time.

Forum users do act like spoilt children because they're not progressing at a rate perfectly suited to them. The path is clear, the path is varied, and theres still fun to be had.