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  1. #181
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Idd, let's say on Tortos. His breath still kills you if you don't kick turtle but if you successfully dodge falling shit you take minimal damage or no damage at all.
    Yea the turtle shells are key on that one so that mechanic has to stay but dodging shit left right and center should net you no dmg. Megara green crap should be the same.

    Theirs a larger point to all of this though. A couple of days ago or like a week ago I read something on the official forums that I found particularly illuminating. I'll post it here again because it's worth noting I think.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...46?page=13#246

    Certain types of mechanics tend to be particularly difficult for lower-skilled groups, and they're not usually the mechanics you're looking at.

    Target-switching is one of the biggest issues. I'm really not sure why - this one is purely observational. Beginning raiders are very bad at target-switching.

    Interrupts are another issue. They're highly timing-sensitive and they require monitoring an additional UI element. Interrupts that involve target-switching are probably the single most difficult single mechanic in the game for them.

    They also tend to struggle with keeping up DPS while moving to a much greater extent than more skilled players do. For them, it's not just a matter of the game's restrictions on what you can do while moving; it's a matter of them having trouble doing anything at all while moving because of physical coordination/mental multitasking shortfalls. Navigating the game world - especially if they have to strafe - is itself a relatively complex task.

    Multitasking in general is a big issue. Whereas more skilled players have, to one degree or another, automated and 'chunked' common basic tasks like doing their rotation and watching for/moving out of fire, less-skilled players still consciously manage those basic functions. That conscious management leaves less working memory available for higher-order tasks.

    And they tend to have trouble with complex priority systems. Simple stimulus-response type mechanics don't tend to be a big issue, but complex mechanics like long target priority chains, conditional responses, etc. are messy and often produce much slower reaction times and lower accuracy.

    When a higher-skilled player tries to evaluate encounter difficulty, you'll usually look at things like healing requirements. You might also consider raid coordination requirements (e.g. Mahourai's comment on Empress - it's true, Empress does require a relatively high level of coordination for a normal mode, and that might increase the learning curve by a pull or two). You'll consider the sorts of things that make encounters difficult for good players.

    But base healing requirements and coordination don't actually matter that much to less-skilled players. They add about the same amount of difficulty regardless of skill level. (Actually, perversely, phases with high healing requirements often reduce overall encounter difficulty at lower skill levels because they're not usually coupled with other high-difficulty mechanics. Rampages are the easiest part of the Megaera encounter, and Primordius is easier with the zerg strat.)

    So basically, you're looking at the wrong things. You're not seeing what makes these encounters so difficult for newer or weaker raiders, and so you're not seeing just how tremendous the jump in difficulty is from t14 to t15 for players who struggled with t14.
    It's a bit wordy but it makes total sense. Rampage is the easiest part to heal on megara because well all you do is stand their and heal. In fact we one shot that boss on a weekly basis now because well we pop blood lost on the last rampage and burn through his head so damn fast because everybody is standing still just dpsing raw output right. Whatever they decided to do with normal mode raiding I'd like to see them address those weaknesses in newer or bad raiders. I think the biggest ones are dps on the move. Targeting and interrupts I don't think are that bad but normal raids can faciliate that in alot of ways. How you teach players to handle dps on the move, especially with complex rotations and the boss abilities being thrown at their way I don't know. I honestly don't. I think class design should play a roll in this to. I love the mage spec that gives you dmg when you CS. That's good. That's rewarding. You can bring this to boss design to where an interruptable mechanic is detrimental if it isn't interrupted BUT the faster you switch target and interrupt it you get some better buff from doing it to make the fight easier. Game needs more positive reinforcement. Oh and one other thing they gotta make it clear for players what you should stand in and what you shouldn't. Like I hear it often from players who I try and take to raid that it's not clear why hey should be standing in this green puke on the ground but that other green puke on the ground is bad. Also in general I'd like less crap on the ground. That's not really a difficulty request (although it certainly can be on bosses like dumuru where you can't see shit) it hurts my eyes to have to strain. Man I'm getting old.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #182
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokilar View Post
    if the game wouldnt work there was only a few things you needed to do

    1) spring the cartridge up and down a few times
    2) remove the cartridge and blow in the NES
    3) remove the cartridge and blow on the game itself
    4) tap the console a few times

    they dont make them like they used to
    If anyone walks into the living room while you are on the last level of mario you tell that asshole to stand still so the game doesn't freeze or you will choke them out with the controller.

    You know you did it.

  3. #183
    Let's make 10 difficulty levels so we can accommodate everyone......
    No.

  4. #184
    Banned anaxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    But here is where your disconnect from the real world comes into play... your breed: the hard core, study vidoes, play PTR to learn fights before release, spend 40 hours a week on a game type player is vanishing. This type player has never been over 1/2 of 1% of the WoW population and with Exodus closing its doors... the death knell has been heard.
    Here is your disconnect sir. I havn't installed a PTR or beta since Ulduar. I Raid 20 hours a week MAX and no alt raids. And I'm still one if not the leading theorycrafter on rets in this game.

    So why don't you get a reality check heroics and especially normal modes aren't out of reach for any player. If they are it's because the player doesn't care and is happy being drug around like a bag of trash. The best thing for trash and leaches is to get rid of them. Thankfully that happens quite often.

    There are plenty of players doing normal mode content who are perfectly happy and don't bitch and moan for a chance to do heroics. There are plenty of players who do LFR content and are happy to not bitch and moan about normal modes.

    Full clearing heroic guilds may be the minority. But the avid crybaby forum poster is an even bigger minority. Newsflash some people quit the game for real life commitments even if they are still enjoying the game.

    It does end, it ends when the player base becomes so casual that you dont have people like you interested in raiding any longer... IE: thats what WoW is now. The evolution of the game as with most everything in society is: Instant gratification... not many ever wanted to spend hours playing and farming to raid, and that number is dwindling faster and faster everyday.
    I know you are trying to prop yourself up like blizzard is catering to you but they aren't MoP has been one of the more difficult expansions just because of Sheer length of content u take in so much at once with minimal gaps inbetween. It's a heroic raiders dream.

    Btw I like instant gratification too so I choose to do heroic 25s. It means I will gear faster, Hit BiS, and generally always finiish gearing 100% while you are still begging for LFR drops that are inferior to the previous tier.

    Are you aware I will be clearing the entire zone in under 4 hours. That is about the time it takes to clear LFR entirely not counting qued time.

    Again with the ego... no one here cares what you do or do not do, they care about what 99% of the player base does... having fun.
    Sorry but spending several hours to watch videos, read write ups, take notes, perfect a spell rotation on a dummy, downloading 15 addons, changing settings on those addons, switching specs, switching glyphs, running dailies for coins... etc etc etc... is not what people want to do or consider fun.
    Again this illusion world you live in. I'd say 500k Views means quite a few people care about improving their character. You may not and that is totally ok. Btw videos, write ups, notes, dummy training, 15 addons? You don't need that shit for normals, and you most certainly don't need to do all that if you spend 2 minutes looking at dungeon journal and use common sense after seeing the ability in combat if you have any remote concept of what situational awareness is. If you don't or praise not having that I wouldn't brag because awareness of ones surroundings is a fundamental life skill.
    No one is mad, the only way you could make me mad is if I cared what you thought, clearly I dont.
    What I am is confused as to why your here in a discussion that has no bearing on your playstyle... saying that you want people to have skill so you can recruit them on the surface is a nice thought.
    In reality its just a smoke screen so you can come here and lord over the lessers... You have no ability to recruit out of the 99% because none of them will ever be good enough to do progression raiding. Your recruitment comes from skilled players that do have time to spend hours and hours doing the above... and those few people are disapearing from the game and the genre as a whole.

    Your time is past as is the competitive raiding envirment as a whole, keep your heroic modes and be happy Blizz caters to your very very miniscule percentage of players... as for the rest of us, we would like what we ask for. Numbers never lie... you can rant and rail against it all you want but it is what it is... and speaking down to others that arent up to snuff for progression raiding may make you feel important, but it just shows us how impotent you are.
    As skilled as I am I havn't perfected cloning yet so until then we still need new recruits to learn to play the game. People don't just appear out of thin air. Although sometimes an extra hunter pet could be more useful then your run of the mill auto attacking afk LFR player. There are always a few.

    Hours and Hours? 16-20 hours a week no weekends. Not hard to ask really how much time do you watch TV a week, play other video games or hobbies. Exactly.
    Last edited by anaxie; 2013-05-09 at 04:36 PM.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Normal mode is not aimed at the average player. LFR is. Normal mode is aimed at the good player who works with their guild to bring down a boss.
    This. The amount of people in this thread who are crying out to nerf normal modes is pretty disgusting if I'm honest.

    I think people do forget the type of player base raids were aimed at originally, just look back at the Burning Crusade. Despite this, in modern times Blizzard and other sources have provided tools to make raiding accessible to a wider range of players of different skill levels and commitments. See LFR, cross-realm, Openraid, etc. People also need to remember just how long Throne of Thunder has been out, and need to bear in mind just how long it is going to remain the current tier of raiding before the next one.

    The core aspect of raiding is playing as a TEAM, as this is primarily a team-based game. Normal modes requires your raid to work AS A TEAM to tackle the bosses with an understanding of the tactics required to beat it, and nerfing current normal modes only trivialises this. If you want a toned-down version of this, then other tools are there for you to use, such as LFR (which you can queue as a group!), and previous raid tiers. On top of this, normal modes will only become easier and easier in time with more gear, item upgrades, and a nerf in 5.4. If you cannot tackle even the earlier bosses in Throne of Thunder despite these nerfs, then it is clear that normal mode raiding isn't for your raid team with it's current set-up and approach.

    Blizzard have pretty much nailed the difficulty of the current tier of raiding on normal mode with the boss tuning, and this is coming from someone who hasn't even begun to work on heroic modes. My casual raiding guild has had a brilliant time taking down these bosses with steady progression, resulting in a number of very satisfying kills. Especially in comparison to Dragon Soul, where the normal modes were pathetically easy.

    Honestly, Throne of Thunder is one of the best raiding tiers Blizzard has brought out in a while, and it disheartens me to read so many comments that wishes to casualise this to the point where you don't even have to work as a team anymore, even when other options already exist.

    Who needs teamwork in a team-based game, eh?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If anyone walks into the living room while you are on the last level of mario you tell that asshole to stand still so the game doesn't freeze or you will choke them out with the controller.

    You know you did it.
    omg the freezes and hoping that you remembered to write down that retarded 24 character password.

    such great memories

  7. #187
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythius View Post
    Blizzard have pretty much nailed the difficulty of the current tier of raiding on normal mode with the boss tuning
    And yet less people are raiding normals then ever. The only thing disgusting is a raiding "community" that want's so much exclusion it would honestly claim two modes of raiding for itself and exclude all the rest. Yes normal mode is "nailed" for the 1%. Don't expect it to stay that way. It's a good thing though. This is one instance where the developers do know better than you.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-09 at 04:23 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #188
    Whatever happened to having a WotLK-style Naxx tier? A Karazhan?

    Normal mode Mogu'shan Vaults is way too hard* for many, many, many guilds that had loads of fun farming Naxx and Kara. So they get stuck having to do LFR, precluding them from raiding with their guild and with their friends.

    So yes, there should be an easy mode, and it shouldn't be that much harder than LFR. Think about heroic 5 mans. Do it with a PUG and you get a 15% damage bonus, otherwise they are tuned the same. That is what the difference between normal and LFR raids should be. They don't need drastically different gear either.

    This is a big part of the collapse in guild-based raiding in favor of LFR. The barrier to entry is way too high for normal raids.

    * Or maybe was; a guild I was in attempted it last fall and never set foot in another normal raid instance again
    Last edited by hablix; 2013-05-09 at 04:28 PM.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea the turtle shells are key on that one so that mechanic has to stay but dodging shit left right and center should net you no dmg. Megara green crap should be the same.

    Theirs a larger point to all of this though. A couple of days ago or like a week ago I read something on the official forums that I found particularly illuminating. I'll post it here again because it's worth noting I think.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...46?page=13#246



    It's a bit wordy but it makes total sense. Rampage is the easiest part to heal on megara because well all you do is stand their and heal. In fact we one shot that boss on a weekly basis now because well we pop blood lost on the last rampage and burn through his head so damn fast because everybody is standing still just dpsing raw output right. Whatever they decided to do with normal mode raiding I'd like to see them address those weaknesses in newer or bad raiders. I think the biggest ones are dps on the move. Targeting and interrupts I don't think are that bad but normal raids can faciliate that in alot of ways. How you teach players to handle dps on the move, especially with complex rotations and the boss abilities being thrown at their way I don't know. I honestly don't. I think class design should play a roll in this to. I love the mage spec that gives you dmg when you CS. That's good. That's rewarding. You can bring this to boss design to where an interruptable mechanic is detrimental if it isn't interrupted BUT the faster you switch target and interrupt it you get some better buff from doing it to make the fight easier. Game needs more positive reinforcement. Oh and one other thing they gotta make it clear for players what you should stand in and what you shouldn't. Like I hear it often from players who I try and take to raid that it's not clear why hey should be standing in this green puke on the ground but that other green puke on the ground is bad. Also in general I'd like less crap on the ground. That's not really a difficulty request (although it certainly can be on bosses like dumuru where you can't see shit) it hurts my eyes to have to strain. Man I'm getting old.
    I think one of bigger issues is addon need. All people I know raid with DBM. And then when new player turns it on he is flooded with million abilities of which some are really not needed to monitor. Combine that with shit on the ground, trying to execute your rotation and quickly you are overwhelmed. For veterans like me it's normal - but for newbies it's a pretty big step up from leveling or doing LFR.
    Anyways, I have raid in 30 mins so time for some wiping

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by babo7000 View Post
    Have you ever pugged normal ToT?

    GL getting passed Horridon if you could beat Jin'Rokh.
    I know somebody who pugged all the way to Iron Qon on a completely dead server where no guilds have killed a single heroic boss.
    If they can do it, hell, anybody should be able to.

    Are normals really that rough? Am I just jaded? I think it's the other way around, people have gotten used to LFR catering to super lazy play, when cruddy play would've wiped them just as bad in the past in the old 'easy' raids like Kara and yes, even Wrath Naxx (at its gear level). Does nobody remember the endless spam of 'LFM for Naxx, at Thaddius?' Or at Instructor for that matter. Or hell, how many pugs managed to actually clear the place! And finding a pug for Malygos? Ha! Nobody knew how to pilot shit in the last phase.

    LFR has made players lazy, is my take on the subject. That said, I still like LFR... because I get to be a bit lazy and put my brain on auto-pilot in it.
    Last edited by Herecius; 2013-05-09 at 04:22 PM.

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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Mythius View Post
    This. The amount of people in this thread who are crying out to nerf normal modes is pretty disgusting if I'm honest.

    I think people do forget the type of player base raids were aimed at originally, just look back at the Burning Crusade. Despite this, in modern times Blizzard and other sources have provided tools to make raiding accessible to a wider range of players of different skill levels and commitments. See LFR, cross-realm, Openraid, etc. People also need to remember just how long Throne of Thunder has been out, and need to bear in mind just how long it is going to remain the current tier of raiding before the next one.
    I'm looking back at Burning Crusade, and I'm seeing Karazhan. I'm looking back at WotLK, and I'm seeing Naxx. Hell, I'm looking back at vanilla and I'm seeing Molten Core, or even ZG.

    What did Cata have? Don't know, didn't raid.

  12. #192
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    It already exists, it's called normal mode

    or

    It already exists, it's called LFR

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    I think one of bigger issues is addon need. All people I know raid with DBM. And then when new player turns it on he is flooded with million abilities of which some are really not needed to monitor. Combine that with shit on the ground, trying to execute your rotation and quickly you are overwhelmed. For veterans like me it's normal - but for newbies it's a pretty big step up from leveling or doing LFR.
    Anyways, I have raid in 30 mins so time for some wiping
    Well I've raided in this game I'd wager for almost as long as you have if not longer and I feel overwhelmed this tier. Raiding in tbc was less about boss mechanics and more about dealing with the quirks of your particular class.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And yet less people are raiding normals then ever. .
    Corelation without cause!

    There was never LFR to fill in the gap traditionally for those that wanted to experience raids and they had no choice but to raid normals! Now they have a choice to do lfr get some gear see the tier and not have to worry about normal. Overall more people than ever are experiencing the entire raid tier.

    You can look at it as "less are doing normal it's failing" but I look at it as "more are seing the entire raid and choosing not to push into normal / heroics becuase they are happy to see the raid and could care less about progressing past that point".

    If they cared they would try and get better and invest more time in... a MMORPG! Crazy idea I know!

  15. #195
    Easy Mode? No. I think for raiding at least the split between LFR/Normal/Heroic is just fine and provides challenging content for just about every raiding demographic. People will of course complain (both legitimately and non-legitimately) that their specific needs aren't being catered to - but I'd go as far to say that these individuals are in the definite minority that would likely not be satisfied no matter what was done. One thing I would like to see, in the vein of Scenarios or Challenge Modes, is a set of highly-tuned dungeons that provide the bored with a cutting-edge challenge... perhaps something that auto-scaled down gear to a preset level and awarded tactics beyond the normal metric of killing an end-boss (e.g. time trials, no deaths, no damage taken, no healing done, etc. etc.) Unique mounts, achievements, and flavor gear for Transmog could be the hooks to bring people in.
    Look at these eyebrows! They're attack eyebrows. You could take bottle tops off with these. They’re cross. Crosser than the rest of my face. They’re independently cross. They probably want to cede from the rest of my face and set up their own independent state of eyebrows.

  16. #196
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    Corelation without cause!

    There was never LFR to fill in the gap traditionally for those that wanted to experience raids and they had no choice but to raid normals! Now they have a choice to do lfr get some gear see the tier and not have to worry about normal. Overall more people than ever are experiencing the entire raid tier.

    You can look at it as "less are doing normal it's failing" but I look at it as "more are seing the entire raid and choosing not to push into normal / heroics becuase they are happy to see the raid and could care less about progressing past that point".

    If they cared they would try and get better and invest more time in... a MMORPG! Crazy idea I know!
    That's the thing. The content is so difficult they don't care enough. The developers gave them an easy out and they took it. Normals in the past were also much much much easier. Overall more people than ever are experiincing lfr I agree but less people are raiding normals and it's at least in part because normals are impossing and lack of catch up is a serious barrier to entry.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #197
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    You can easily do MSV, HoF or ToES which all three got its normal modes nerfed into the ground if your gear/skill isnt up for doing a few bosses in ToT.

    Personally I think this is a dumb idea, there are already 3 modes: LFR (easy mode), Normal mode (pretty doable for a half-decent player) and heroic (which requires extensive time and a fair amount of skill).

    Moreover, on my realm there are plenty pugs out there who'll do ToT atleast up to Ji-Kun. All in all I think that there is plenty out there raid-wise and a new difficulty level is not necessary at all!
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Well I've raided in this game I'd wager for almost as long as you have if not longer and I feel overwhelmed this tier. Raiding in tbc was less about boss mechanics and more about dealing with the quirks of your particular class.
    If you started in vanilla you have since I started in TBC. I am tank so can't say I am so overwhelmed since my job is to mitigate dmg with 2 abilities, use my cooldowns and move boss to safe spot. Well, Horridon is where I actually need to step up and protect poor healers from mobs :P
    Believe me, as tank who is tanking Tortos fight is very simple :P

  19. #199
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.

    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by hablix View Post
    I'm looking back at Burning Crusade, and I'm seeing Karazhan. I'm looking back at WotLK, and I'm seeing Naxx. Hell, I'm looking back at vanilla and I'm seeing Molten Core, or even ZG.

    What did Cata have? Don't know, didn't raid.
    Karazhan had some pretty hard bosses. Shade of Aran was no joke, and the final ledge dragon boss wasn't very easy either.

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