4th raid difficulty, Easy Mode, should it happen?

[Deleted]

Here is your disconnect sir. I havn't installed a PTR or beta since Ulduar. I Raid 20 hours a week MAX and no alt raids. And I'm still one if not the leading theorycrafter on rets in this game.

So why don't you get a reality check heroics and especially normal modes aren't out of reach for any player. If they are it's because the player doesn't care and is happy being drug around like a bag of trash. The best thing for trash and leaches is to get rid of them. Thankfully that happens quite often.

You spend 20 hours a week in raids. That, in of itself is a huge amount of time. On top of that, you are actively participating in the theorycrafting community beyond scribbling a few formulae on a table to determine if you reforge in the direction of haste or mastery. Which is good, and it is excellent to see people get so engaged by something but that likely eats up a considerable amount of time which certainly isn't factored into your raid times. Then on top of that you likely do dailies, perhaps a little PvP or pet battling on the side?

All in all, that is a massive amount of time you are sinking into the game and heroic raids are your thing. That is fine, they used to be mine as well. However, due to RL circumstances, I am lucky if I can sink 20 hours into the game every two weeks. Raiding for 20 hours a week is something I don't have the luxury for anymore. I would adore to be able to do some sort of challenging but not incredibly frustrating content but given my playtimes and the guilds that I end up being able to raid with as a result I am one of the people sitting at a half way point.

With LFR being far too easy and ToT normal being too difficult for the group I am playing with - I have more wipes on council 10 man normal than I do over Mimiron 10, Mimiron 10 HC and Mimiron 25, more wipes than on Kalecgos, more wipes than on Brutallus who ultimately forced the guild I was part of to realm hop - I am one of those awkward, average subscribers that simply isn't having the best of awesome fun times at the moment. You are coming from a fantastic perspective; one where your time commitment and / or skill allows you to progress well. As outlined though, you are certainly within the 0.5 % of the playing population and, from experience, it is very difficult to see things from the other side of that bubble until you are suddenly on the outside.

Do normal modes need to be easier? Perhaps, though only slightly - I tolerated learning Shade of Aran for a month when I first started playing the game. Normal modes certainly need to be curved better. The current difficulty is far too punishing, far too early.

[Glorious Leader]

What? Which fights outside of Leo with warlock tanking were more class quirks than mechanics?

I think the better question is which fights had more mechanics that you actually had to deal with. For most of hyjal I just sat their and dpsd stuff when it came to bosses. I occasionally had to move when I had an X above my head. Very occasionally. I spent more time paying attention to how I was actually dpsing and playing my class than anything the bosses did. That's what I meant about quirks. That might have been the wrong weird. Things weren't as fine tuned class wise.

[Odina]

Raiding in tbc was less about boss mechanics and more about dealing with the quirks of your particular class.

Sorry ...can't agree here!

How were the following class specific > Mechanic fights?

Lady Vashj
Kelthas
Solarian
Leothas
Kiljaden
Tide Walker
....

Hell all of TBC was mechanical fights...I serisouly can't think of one fight where it was not "must focus on mechanic X or we are screwed" and was focused on "just do XYZ of your abilities and win". It's what made it a great expac for the more hardcore minded players as you could not just throw gear at shit and ignore mechanics!

[Bisso]

Normal mode is not aimed at the average player. LFR is. Normal mode is aimed at the good player who works with their guild to bring down a boss.

That's what we call an average player. Average doesn't mean bad, it means in the middle. You know, like in the middle of hardcore and casual. You can be good or bad, the thing is, you are still in between the 2 extremes. Don't get upset about this...

[jax]

Here is your disconnect sir. I havn't installed a PTR or beta since Ulduar. I Raid 20 hours a week MAX and no alt raids. And I'm still one if not the leading theorycrafter on rets in this game.

Sorry 20 hours and many hours theorycrafting and running dailies etc... and that ego is still in tact I see... The fact that your one if not the leading theorycrafters on ret means what again? Epeen stoking at its finest!

So why don't you get a reality check heroics and especially normal modes aren't out of reach for any player. If they are it's because the player doesn't care and is happy being drug around like a bag of trash. The best thing for trash and leaches is to get rid of them. Thankfully that happens quite often.

Bag of trash? Leaches? wow, just wow. You have just called 99% of the game pop bags of trash and leaches... There really is nothing else to say.

[Deleted]

And yet less people are raiding normals then ever. The only thing disgusting is a raiding "community" that want's so much exclusion it would honestly claim two modes of raiding for itself and exclude all the rest. Yes normal mode is "nailed" for the 1%. Don't expect it to stay that way. It's a good thing though. This is one instance where the developers do know better than you.

Loving the exaggerations.

At least the difference now is that a number of other options exist, whereas expansions like the Burning Crusade not only excluded these players, but gave them less alternatives (and due to the way gear progression worked, excluded a larger percentage of players). So many players didn't even SEE bosses in their current content, at least they have that option now. Not denying that these other options aren't flawed, LFR definitely needs work, and it can also cause confusion as to how the player should progress their character.

LFR ToT > ToT is what many believe to be the pattern, but any guild attempting to progress through ToT normal really should get some previous tier boss kills under their belt on normal mode first.

[Glorious Leader]

Sorry ...can't agree here!

How were the following class specific > Mechanic fights?

Lady Vashj
Kelthas
Solarian
Leothas
Kiljaden
Tide Walker
....

Hell all of TBC was mechanical fights...I serisouly can't think of one fight where it was not "must focus on mechanic X or we are screwed" and was focused on "just do XYZ of your abilities and win". It's what made it a great expac for the more hardcore minded players as you could not just throw gear at shit and ignore mechanics!

NO it wasn't. You listed 3 end instance raid bosses who's mechanics still pale compared to what we have today. Pretty much every boss in hyjal was just focus on X mechanic or were screwed as opposed to now where it's focus on TGWXYZ mechanic or were screwed. I had to move so little in hyjal it wasn't even funny. Even less in MC now that I think about it. Man those raid tiers were a joke compared to now. You blow through them so easily. People are really better raiders but the mechanics have really jumped it up to much.

[Binary Speaker]

Unless you want the fire to heal you and the boss to hug tanks instead of hurt them idk.

I'd be in favor of bosses hugging players TO DEATH! Muwahahahahha
OT: Lolno LFR is enough for the derps and the people, like myself, who do not have time to raid in a real group. So the loot pinata I mean lfraid is good enough IMO

[Balazaar]

The problem isn't normal mode's difficulty, the problem with most raids is the various skill levels within the group. Each fight takes a certain amount of skill to defeat. Some of your team is always better than others at various mechanics. But assuming everyone can learn each fight can be overcome, and it will require most groups to gear up a bit for the more difficult fights.

For example ... my guild is doing 25 man ToT. We wiped a lot on Tortos at first, but now we can 1-2 shot him. Same for Megara. Wiped a bunch but now he's not bad. Mostly it was just figuring out strategy and practice. Now we are on Ji-Kun. He's proving a bit more difficult but we're getting close, and soon he'll be like the rest, and so on and so on.

Normal mode is fine. It really is player skill. Some just can't do it. There's no shame in admitting you aren't a great player, or even a good player. I'm not a great player and never will be. I'm adequate enough for normal modes. LFR is there if normal seems a bit too tough for whatever reason.

I's also like to mention this ... Recount has its uses but it hurts raids as much as it helps in my opinion. Topping the chart is all well and good but that isn't actually your goal in a raid. The goal is a dead boss. Yes, a certain amount of dps is required, but beyond that all that matters is the boss dying. I seldom look at Recount because I focus on mechanics more than dps. A dead mage does zero dps.

[Glorious Leader]

The problem isn't normal mode's difficulty, the problem with most raids is the various skill levels within the group. Each fight takes a certain amount of skill to defeat. Some of your team is always better than others at various mechanics. But assuming everyone can learn each fight can be overcome, and it will require most groups to gear up a bit for the more difficult fights.

For example ... my guild is doing 25 man ToT. We wiped a lot on Tortos at first, but now we can 1-2 shot him. Same for Megara. Wiped a bunch but now he's not bad. Mostly it was just figuring out strategy and practice. Now we are on Ji-Kun. He's proving a bit more difficult but we're getting close, and soon he'll be like the rest, and so on and so on.

Normal mode is fine. It really is player skill. Some just can't do it. There's no shame in admitting you aren't a great player, or even a good player. I'm not a great player and never will be. I'm adequate enough for normal modes. LFR is there if normal seems a bit too tough for whatever reason.

I's also like to mention this ... Recount has its uses but it hurts raids as much as it helps in my opinion. Topping the chart is all well and good but that isn't actually your goal in a raid. The goal is a dead boss. Yes, a certain amount of dps is required, but beyond that all that matters is the boss dying. I seldom look at Recount because I focus on mechanics more than dps. A dead mage does zero dps.

Normal raids in the past have allowed for wider group of players though. Naturally those players formed associations with one and other and asking them to sit those players is kinda lame. You can make the argument that harder normals encourages social bonds but it also breaks them down.

[Chireru93]

easymode -is- the LFR difficulty. you can, if you want, take a guild 25m group and walk into the LFR-difficulty instance, or queue for it maybe, and boom, easymode.

[Osmeric]

The problem isn't normal mode's difficulty,
[...]
Normal mode is fine.

It's not. It really isn't. Far too few people are completing it, or for that matter even starting it. It's a gross misallocation of development resources to develop complex and difficult encounters, only to either near-totally nerf them (for LFR) or have a tiny sliver of the player population try them (and an even tinier sliver enjoy and finish them.)

[jax]

If they are it's because the player doesn't care and is happy being drug around like a bag of trash. The best thing for trash and leaches is to get rid of them. Thankfully that happens quite often.

Blizz CEO to stockholders: Well I am sorry we lost a billion dollars last year but we had to take out the bags of trash and get rid of all those damn pesky leaches!
Stockholders to CEO: We understand sir, it is regretable that we had to loose 99% of our playerbase and go F2P... but on a brighter note, your fired!
Blizz CEO: but but but... the 1/2 of 1% of the entire community said that everyone else is trash and leaches! How could we not cater to them?
Stockholders: Your and idoit... get out.

/thread

[Deleted]

man I knew i should have tanked this tier brother. I had all kinds of tanking gear drop, but nooooo i had all sorts of assholes telling me to go holy. I fucking knew it to.

Hehe, you are pally. Protection pallies are in excellent spot. I still think healing is the hardest role. I know our healers are struggling more then dps or tanks. And they are not worse players then we are.

[Osmeric]

easymode -is- the LFR difficulty. you can, if you want, take a guild 25m group and walk into the LFR-difficulty instance, or queue for it maybe, and boom, easymode.

I think experience is showing this is not a generally workable suggestion.

but on a brighter note, your fired!

lol

[Glorious Leader]

It's not. It really isn't. Far too few people are completing it, or for that matter even starting it. It's a gross misallocation of development resources to develop complex and difficult encounters, only to either near-totally nerf them (for LFR) or have a tiny sliver of the player population try them (and an even tinier sliver enjoy and finish them.)

Or just end up having them nerfed by item level upgrades or the developers themselves. Look I could get people arguing for normals being fine if the developers hadn't already had to move to nerf them. I mean come the fuck on how much more evidence do people need?

[anaxie]

Whatever happened to having a WotLK-style Naxx tier? A Karazhan?

Normal mode Mogu'shan Vaults is way too hard* for many, many, many guilds that had loads of fun farming Naxx and Kara. So they get stuck having to do LFR, precluding them from raiding with their guild and with their friends.

So yes, there should be an easy mode, and it shouldn't be that much harder than LFR. Think about heroic 5 mans. Do it with a PUG and you get a 15% damage bonus, otherwise they are tuned the same. That is what the difference between normal and LFR raids should be. They don't need drastically different gear either.

This is a big part of the collapse in guild-based raiding in favor of LFR. The barrier to entry is way too high for normal raids.

* Or maybe was; a guild I was in attempted it last fall and never set foot in another normal raid instance again

You mean Karazhan while players were doing Sunwell?

Why don't you go try Karazhan at current launch tier. You will shit your pants and beg for ToT Normal.

[Dreyen]

There is an easy mode, it's called T14, nerfed by 10% and easily outgearable compared to when you were fresh lvl90 in full 463..

[Odina]

NO it wasn't. You listed 3 end instance raid bosses who's mechanics still pale compared to what we have today. Pretty much every boss in hyjal was just focus on X mechanic or were screwed as opposed to now where it's focus on TGWXYZ mechanic or were screwed. I had to move so little in hyjal it wasn't even funny. Even less in MC now that I think about it. Man those raid tiers were a joke compared to now. You blow through them so easily. People are really better raiders but the mechanics have really jumped it up to much.

Sorry amigo but looking at your feaths of strengh you were never a normal raider back then you came in after atunements etc

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...achievement#81

No hand of adal, no champion of the naru, No zulgrub FOS, no Zul aman FOS, no Onixya level 60 ... Please stop trying to tell those of us that did it while it was current how it was!

For reference this is what a Vanilla and TBC raiders FOS looks like
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...achievement#81

[Bisso]

NO it wasn't. You listed 3 end instance raid bosses who's mechanics still pale compared to what we have today. Pretty much every boss in hyjal was just focus on X mechanic or were screwed as opposed to now where it's focus on TGWXYZ mechanic or were screwed. I had to move so little in hyjal it wasn't even funny. Even less in MC now that I think about it. Man those raid tiers were a joke compared to now. You blow through them so easily. People are really better raiders but the mechanics have really jumped it up to much.

This, BC was a big step above Vanilla in term of fight mechanics, but it kept getting more complex with time. I you would put a "difficult" BC boss in Mist tomorrow, tune his hp and damage to fit the content, it would be considered an normal if not easy fight.

Sorry amigo but looking at your feaths of strengh you were never a normal raider back then you came in after atunements etc

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...achievement#81

No hand of adal, no champion of the naru, No zulgrub FOS, no Zul aman FOS, no Onixya level 60 ... Please stop trying to tell those of us that did it while it was current how it was!

For reference this is what a Vanilla and TBC raiders FOS looks like
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...achievement#81

keep it up bro, you are doing great. He is right, and while you might have been, like ALOT of people, in raiding guild in BC, it doesn't make you suddenly immune to exageration.