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  1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I presented evidence supporting my position. I'll also add the 40% of guilds that raided in T14 that have not raided in T15.

    What evidence did you provide?
    Thats not evidence of anything but possibilities as to why less people are raiding. That is all it is. LFR takes a ton of people away from normal raiding, people growing old of the game, not being able to afford it anymore, and a million other reasons that i dont care to list.

  2. #1242
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I presented evidence supporting my position. I'll also add the 40% of guilds that raided in T14 that have not raided in T15.

    What evidence did you provide?
    I am sorry, what does your evidence prove except there are less people raiding normals? You are comparing 1.5 million of ppl raiding in WRATH with today where probably 2 000 000 raids LFR. Try and think. Is it possible that some of those 1.5 switched to LFR and they are happy there?

  3. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    But they wont actaully become better players which is the biggest problem of all.
    They are declining to be molded into the kinds of players you want them to become. Why should they care what you want them to be? This is a problem for you, because they will pull the game design in a direction you don't want it to go. Not clear why any of us should care about that either.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #1244
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Do you think that the majority of people are simply limited by their skill cap being low? You can raise that cap to at least normals with guildes, forums, and having your guild operate as a real raiding guild. Everything you change is a boost in your chances in downing a boss, look at WOL, find out what numbers people are pulling and who is doing what. Try to fix your friends dps/hps, talk to him tell him why. Yet if people dont care to change anything at all, then no other change is going to matter.

    Instead of pushing themselves they actually only do what they have to do to get into the raid and nothing else more.
    Actually, I do. Our off tank's wife is a good example of this. She reads guides, asks for help from more experienced players of her class, knows strategies, has a good clean ui and a good computer, but we can't bring her to raids. She dies on mechanics all too often, and is by far the bottom dps, despite trying her best. She's a good friend to everyone in the raid, but we cannot take her to raids if we want to progress. It sucks, especially for her.

    These players do exist. And they're human too, and want to do real raiding, just like all of us.

  5. #1245
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    Regardless of anyones opinions keep this thread rolling. It's pretty hilarious material if you can deal with the busted blood vessels in your brain afterwards.

  6. #1246
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    I am sorry, what does your evidence prove except there are less people raiding normals? You are comparing 1.5 million of ppl raiding in WRATH with today where probably 2 000 000 raids LFR. Try and think. Is it possible that some of those 1.5 switched to LFR and they are happy there?
    I'm pointing out those people did organized raiding at a difficulty level between LFR and current normal, and were apparently happy with it. Yes, some would be ok with LFR, but there were SO MANY of them (compared to the current crop of normal/heroic raiders) that if even a fraction of those players wanted something between LFR and normal, it could be significant.

    This is an argument against your unsupported assertion that few people would want that kind of tuning. So, given that there exists evidence that appears to work against your assertion, can you come up with some to bolster it?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #1247
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    That is fine but dont confuse raiding for fun with raiding for progression. You can do both but dont expect to compete with other guilds based solely on you logging into the game.
    I'm not confused. Sounds like you are.

    When you raid for fun, you aren't competing with other guilds.

    Progression means fighting a challenging boss until your group is good enough to down it, then moving to the next boss and over the course of week to months completing the instance.

    There are guilds that compete over who's the furthest progressed, but you can progress without competing. The are two different things.

  8. #1248
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Ok, so not everyone has the capacity / opportunity / dedication to conquer every aspect of the game. Lots of very active pvp'ers won't get a gladiator title either. Is this a problem that should be tackled as well?

    I will likely never get a TLPD mount. Should I demand that the spawn rate be adjusted?
    Not if you talk about the very top content, heroic raids. But yes, everyone that tries enough should be able to complete NORMAL raidsd, NORMAL, as for NORMAL people, you know, that MDEIUDM difficulty.

    Funny that you try to compare NORMAL raids to GLADIATOR in arena.

  9. #1249
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They are declining to be molded into the kinds of players you want them to become. Why should they care what you want them to be? This is a problem for you, because they will pull the game design in a direction you don't want it to go. Not clear why any of us should care about that either.
    If you dont care to get better then why are people caring about progression? The game design isnt getting pulled anywhere that from where it is now. Do you think that at Blizzcon they will find a really bad guild to put on stage to be pitted against lvl 30 cows in a field? That is the simplicity you seem to be after but i dont see that ever happening.

    You think that blizzard cares about just the money which makes you think that the hardcore players mean less to the game. This is where you are wrong. Do you see where top end guilds are talked about? All over including blizzcon and many other events in the world. Hardcore players stick around playing the game because we like a challenge while casuals will get bored and quit. Better customers with less turnover.

  10. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    . She dies on mechanics all too often, and is by far the bottom dps, despite trying her best.
    And how is it obvious thats not her best?

    There is ZERO ZERO difference from me to her. I do not have some magical gene inside my DNA that makes me a better raider than her. Anyone can reach and level of skill if they strived to be so.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  11. #1251
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Regardless of anyones opinions keep this thread rolling. It's pretty hilarious material if you can deal with the busted blood vessels in your brain afterwards.
    I think this is the beginning of casual elitism.
    ''No you're not like us,we're bad,we're the normal ones,you're good you're an outlier,you're irrelevant.The game should adapt to us bads.''

  12. #1252
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Actually, I do. Our off tank's wife is a good example of this. She reads guides, asks for help from more experienced players of her class, knows strategies, has a good clean ui and a good computer, but we can't bring her to raids. She dies on mechanics all too often, and is by far the bottom dps, despite trying her best. She's a good friend to everyone in the raid, but we cannot take her to raids if we want to progress. It sucks, especially for her.

    These players do exist. And they're human too, and want to do real raiding, just like all of us.
    So if i buy a new game and im not good at it then it should be nerfed?

  13. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I'm not confused. Sounds like you are.

    When you raid for fun, you aren't competing with other guilds.

    Progression means fighting a challenging boss until your group is good enough to down it, then moving to the next boss and over the course of week to months completing the instance.

    There are guilds that compete over who's the furthest progressed, but you can progress without competing. The are two different things.
    That went over your head. He is saying you shouldn't expect to progress in Normals by just logging into the game. Pretty much what this entire thread has been going on for over 60 pages about.

  14. #1254
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    I am sorry, what does your evidence prove except there are less people raiding normals? You are comparing 1.5 million of ppl raiding in WRATH with today where probably 2 000 000 raids LFR. Try and think. Is it possible that some of those 1.5 switched to LFR and they are happy there?
    LFR isn't raiding. It's solo play in a raid instance. They aren't the same thing. If you think that the LFR experience is the same as Normal mode or Heroic modes then I would submit you've never participated in LFR or progression raiding or both.

  15. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    But yes, everyone that tries enough should be able to complete NORMAL raidsd, NORMAL, as for NORMAL people, you know, that MDEIUDM difficulty..
    There is a difference between a "normal" player and a "normal" raider
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #1256
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I'm not confused. Sounds like you are.

    When you raid for fun, you aren't competing with other guilds.

    Progression means fighting a challenging boss until your group is good enough to down it, then moving to the next boss and over the course of week to months completing the instance.

    There are guilds that compete over who's the furthest progressed, but you can progress without competing. The are two different things.
    Then you are a casual social guild that kills bosses occasionally so difficulty shouldnt matter as you in it for the fun.

  17. #1257
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I think this is the beginning of casual elitism.
    ''No you're not like us,we're bad,we're the normal ones,you're good you're an outlier,you're irrelevant.The game should adapt to us bads.''
    people take pride in how terrible they are?
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #1258
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    But they wont actaully become better players which is the biggest problem of all. Each time bosses are nerfed and they down that boss they feel like they are better players. 30% nerf in DS then Cata hits and the forums are raging with people saying its too hard because they no longer have the 30% nerf carrying them. Nerfs are not productive means to making a better community, they make players feel ten times better than they really are so they never actually improve and fix the various things wrong with their gameplay.
    Thats why I mentioned certain mechanics would remain unchanged. The problem with the 30% nerf in DS was most of the boss abilities in DS were not fatal and when there was a 30% nerf attached to it it became even less fatal. If Stone Guard's bad blowup still did 400k+ damage, or Sha's breath still 1 shot, or Tsulong's dot did fatal amounts of damage around the 20 stacks, or Spirit Kings Flanking Orders/Annihilate still 1 shot or Gara's ghost still could easily overwhelm your raid etc etc mechanics would be the main part of the fight and not gear/dps/hps. Keep the raid/player wiping mechanics in place just reduce the HPS/DPS requirements and you have a way to teach people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    a create a shit ton new problems.
    So now all legit raiders have to go through another tier of raiding before getting to normal?

    Blizzard just solve the whole not having actual raiders needing to run LFRs
    Wait what? I have no clue what your talking about. Blizzard wanted there to be a progression path between tier 14 and tier 15 except I don't ever see any pugs running tier 14 as everyone just farms valor gear and does ToT LFR since its better and easier in every way.

    What I meant was after 5.3 bump Tier 14 ilvl to 510ish. ToT raiders would've already have a lot of 522+ gear so there isn't really a reason to go back, I know I wouldn't need to go back. Right now players can completely skip that entire tier and all my alts are skipping it and doing current LFR. The current ilvl jump in ToT is incredible, I remember wiping a lot on Horridon the first time we went there, now its a complete and utter joke in full 522+ geared raid.
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-05-11 at 04:30 AM.

  19. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    And how is it obvious thats not her best?

    There is ZERO ZERO difference from me to her. I do not have some magical gene inside my DNA that makes me a better raider than her. Anyone can reach and level of skill if they strived to be so.
    I have a magical gene. Crap that is just a gummi bear

  20. #1260
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    So if i buy a new game and im not good at it then it should be nerfed?
    Likewise, you buy a game not to complete it but to TRY to complete it.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

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