Page 62 of 66 FirstFirst ...
12
52
60
61
62
63
64
... LastLast
  1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Progression is all about getting the right people together and recruiting from this very player base we are talking about isnt the best solution for progression. Players play for years and dont know their own class, rotations, gemming, and so on. To recruit we talk to other high end guilds and have alts come to our guild or to theirs because there is more demand then supply of good players.

    Why? Because nerfs do not make a player better, they make them think they are better.
    Progression can also be about having fun with friends.

  2. #1222
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The point is, the number of excluded raiders, who were fine with Wrath level of difficulty -- which I will argue falls into the current LFR - Normal hole -- greatly exceeds the total number of who are currently raiding normal/heroic raids.

    If that first group isn't large enough to cater to, neither is the group of current raiders.
    TBH, we can argue as much as we want but we don't know numbers. We only know how many people raided. Where are all those people and why they left - who knows. Maybe some from the beer league are happy with LFR, can this be possibility?

  3. #1223
    Normal mode ToT really doesn't require "reflexes". I feel like people are going to really extreme lengths to justify the notion that content they probably haven't even tried is "too difficult". Most of the fights have a basic gear requirement which can be met through farming T14, LFR and VP gear, and they have simple mechanics you have to learn and follow - kill this target now, dispel this debuff now, dodge this beam etc. If you take those mechanics out, you're left with content that basically anyone with a pulse can clear, which is what LFR is for. There's three difficulty settings and they cover the broad spectrum of the population pretty well.

    The reason less people are raiding these days is because LFR exists as an alternative, so people are not compelled to go through the hassle of finding a guild and meeting raid times when they can just do LFR instead and still get decent gear and see the artwork, and because less people are playing the game. It's older. People who are motivated and want to be in a raiding guild can easily find one that is doing ToT. There's thousands of them.

    ToT has a gear check, so people will need to get their 500+ ilvl or whatever before doing it, but for the most part it's pretty managable and the same guilds who were gradually progressing through normal mode last tier are doing the same here. That's a much better model than making it puggable, since that would create a situation where most guilds cleared it and were left with nothing to do, which is what happened in Dragon Soul.

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    Progression can also be about having fun with friends.
    That is fine but dont confuse raiding for fun with raiding for progression. You can do both but dont expect to compete with other guilds based solely on you logging into the game.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 04:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    It's not less skilled. It's time investment. You know what happens to guilds that raid more in a week then some players do in a month or even two months? They burn themselves out and quit the game. While yes Method is insanely good and have the raid dps that could rival gods and titans. The vast majority of the top guilds are top because of grossly huge time investments.
    Yes they are actual GODS lol.

  5. #1225
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    What are you trying to prove with all that math? I put it into a math equation engine and all that came out was smoke.
    I am trying to prove it's not large group of people who are stuck in between LFR and normals.

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    TBH, we can argue as much as we want but we don't know numbers.
    So, you've gone from "there aren't enough" to "we don't know the numbers". Progress of a sort.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." -- Samuel Johnson

  7. #1227
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,484
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    It's not less skilled. It's time investment. You know what happens to guilds that raid more in a week then some players do in a month or even two months? .
    Skill is a major factor though
    Greater skill means you can accomplish more in a given time then others
    Iv'e seen plenty of these forums of people who raid less hours then me yet have equal or greater progression
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I've seen him explain the same points to the same people asking the same dumb questions for 60 pages now.

    While my statements to you are tongue-in-cheek making a point to illustrate your rediculousness - my honest opinion is that you already know the information you are looking for and get excited playing the obtuse poster to see how infuriated you can make a complete stranger. It seems kinda psychotic to me, but hey, I'm no doctor.
    Asking you to explain yourself on a forum is a dumb question?What a bland personal attack.

    Somehow you know with certainty I already know what his arguments are?Since I do not you are being delusional.
    But in the end you actually agree it's ok to ask someone to scan a 60+ page thread for someone's post while that poster could just refer the person to the post directly or just type out his arguments...well this is over I already have a troll to deal with.

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Skill is a major factor though
    Greater skill means you can accomplish more in a given time then others
    Iv'e seen plenty of these forums of people who raid less hours then me yet have equal or greater progression
    So you are finally admitting there is a limit to how much you can improve?

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Skill is a major factor though
    Greater skill means you can accomplish more in a given time then others
    Iv'e seen plenty of these forums of people who raid less hours then me yet have equal or greater progression
    Skill and having the drive to get it done. Get together 30-35 people who are driven to down progression is a beastly machine when they have all the time and motivation to get shit done. Of course it really wouldnt matter how much time they had if they werent great players but it is similiar to this. If people would just learn the basics of their toons and the guild would actually operate as a raiding guild, bosses would die.

  11. #1231
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,484
    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    ToT has a gear check, so people will need to get their 500+ ilvl or whatever before doing it, but for the most part it's pretty managable .
    Agreed
    I completely refuse to believe when people say that thr absolute best of humanly possible of certain players can only get them as far as LFR.
    If you cant even go into normal mode its very obvious they arnt playing to their max potential

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 04:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    So you are finally admitting there is a limit to how much you can improve?
    where did i say that?
    If the maximum capaibility of certain players can only get them as far as LFR? i mean that isnt even be humanly possible
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  12. #1232
    What I think actually might be better (I was fine with an easy mode btw) is to just nerf the previous tier even more then it currently is, to lets say 20%ish (instead of 10%, 10% is barely noticible). Make it very pug friendly/new player friendly except make some of the very bad mechanics still bad (Sha's breath still kills you etc). Then bump the ilvl of the gear to be better then current LFR (510ish ilvl). I think this would solve a lot of problems.

    Or better yet just remove all the hard enrages and buff the ilvl, that would solve a lot of issues and keep the 10% nerf. It's hard to justify going back there with alts when valor gear is 522 and LFR gear is 503.

    With the crappy 496 ilvl from the previous tier and the first couple of bosses from ToT being tuned for 503ilvl+ I could see how new raiders could hit several walls especially on gear checks like Horridon and Tortos.
    Last edited by Raone; 2013-05-11 at 04:15 AM.

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    So you are finally admitting there is a limit to how much you can improve?
    Do you think that the majority of people are simply limited by their skill cap being low? You can raise that cap to at least normals with guildes, forums, and having your guild operate as a real raiding guild. Everything you change is a boost in your chances in downing a boss, look at WOL, find out what numbers people are pulling and who is doing what. Try to fix your friends dps/hps, talk to him tell him why. Yet if people dont care to change anything at all, then no other change is going to matter.

    Instead of pushing themselves they actually only do what they have to do to get into the raid and nothing else more.

  14. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, you've gone from "there aren't enough" to "we don't know the numbers". Progress of a sort.
    And what progress did you make? You apparently know something I don't since there is LARGE group of players stuck in between LFR & normals? I said we don't know numbers of ppl who are unhappy with LFR and want beer league but we sure know that number is small, not LARGE like you said. Because LFR increased numbers of "raiders". If there is LARGE number who is unhappy with LFR and want beer league how the hell was LFR so successful?

  15. #1235
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I don't understand why you haven't put the effort into killing him with less gear like the world first guilds downed him with. The clearly earned the kill, while you will have a hollow very nerfed overgeared kill. It you can't put the effort into killing him within the first couple weeks he's available, why do you think you deserve the chance to?
    There is this thing called progression in raiding where players learn and overcome challenges. No, not overcome by crying for the boss to get their difficulty steamrolled some players have pride. Do you know what that is P R I D E? It's something people usually take in their hobbies especially social ones.

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    And what progress did you make? You apparently know something I don't since there is LARGE group of players stuck in between LFR & normals? I said we don't know numbers why they quit or are they unhappy with LFR. Because LFR increased numbers of "raiders". If they there is LARGE number who is unhappy with LFR and want beer league how the hell was LFR so successful?
    I presented evidence supporting my position. I'll also add the 40% of guilds that raided in T14 that have not raided in T15.

    What evidence did you provide?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must first be overcome." -- Samuel Johnson

  17. #1237
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,484
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    Then bump the ilvl of the gear to be better then current LFR (510ish ilvl). I think this would solve a lot of problems.
    .
    a create a shit ton new problems.
    So now all legit raiders have to go through another tier of raiding before getting to normal?

    Blizzard just solve the whole not having actual raiders needing to run LFRs
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Raone View Post
    What I think actually might be better (I was fine with an easy mode btw) is to just nerf the previous tier even more then it currently is, to lets say 20%ish (instead of 10%, 10% is barely noticible). Make it very pug friendly/new player friendly except make some of the very bad mechanics still bad (Sha's breath still kills you etc). Then bump the ilvl of the gear to be better then current LFR (510ish ilvl). I think this would solve a lot of problems.

    With the crappy 496 ilvl from the previous tier and the first couple of bosses being tuned for 503ilvl+ I could see how new raiders could hit several walls especially on gear checks like Horridon and Tortos.
    But they wont actaully become better players which is the biggest problem of all. Each time bosses are nerfed and they down that boss they feel like they are better players. 30% nerf in DS then Cata hits and the forums are raging with people saying its too hard because they no longer have the 30% nerf carrying them. Nerfs are not productive means to making a better community, they make players feel ten times better than they really are so they never actually improve and fix the various things wrong with their gameplay.

  19. #1239
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Behind You
    Posts
    8,484
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Do you know what that is P R I D E? It's something people usually take in their hobbies especially social ones.
    apprantly not
    Since people have been saying that the absolute maximum playing capability that they can humanly achieve can only get them to complete LFR
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  20. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I presented evidence supporting my position. I'll also add the 40% of guilds that raided in T14 that have not raided in T15.

    What evidence did you provide?
    Thats not evidence of anything but possibilities as to why less people are raiding. That is all it is. LFR takes a ton of people away from normal raiding, people growing old of the game, not being able to afford it anymore, and a million other reasons that i dont care to list.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •